gingerly

Good idea! Like "the wild card" or something.

indigo sunrise

yeah, that's what I was thinking of too! They've referred to him as that a lot in interviews and stuff and I guess it's still a bit presumptuous to go with Head of Hydra

a fine mess

Brett was hilarious at Comic-Con. He's a tease too - mentioning he will gather a team for himself. How old was that kid? 8 years old, if I remember correctly. I don't know if I would let my 8-year old watch a show like SHIELD. It has some pretty dark scenes. Sometimes I hate to love Ward, but he makes it difficult to hate. I wouldn't say I stand with Ward, but I do see hope in him!

Tech Noir

I was under the impression that Ward was a "wild card" up until the s2 finale which at that point he was revealed to be next season's big bad? Maybe?

indigo sunrise

There's still a lot of speculation that we still don't know his ultimate agenda. I really don't know with this guy, man

a fine mess

People can change. Grant in season one was good and somewhat of a team player, even we saw it wasn't always easy playing in a team for him. Undercover or not, he has it in him to do good. He showed compassion towards the woman who could face-change into anyone (Cara was her name?). He has a heart! I find myself always fighting for the baddies / villains. I like to see the good in people. I like shows that make good and evil clouded.

indigo sunrise

I think he definitely cares about people, he came to care about the team in his own way, but I don't think that alone makes him good, since even when he did care for them he was still playing them and has shown time and time again that he wouldn't hesitate to kill them. To me his actions speak louder than anything, and well... the path he seems to be on right now doesn't really tick a lot of boxes in the 'good' column for me we'll have to wait and see what his real motives for taking over Hydra are - if he's really going against SHIELD or not. But I think the way he killed 'May' without hesitation, thinking it was her, makes me think the former is more likely.

Tech Noir

For me with Ward, I see it kind of a nature rather than nurture kind of thing that made him who he is. I once thought the show might try to redeem him via some kind of syfy manner (maybe the T.A.H.I.T.I. project). But sometimes I wonder that even if his memories were wiped out and he started with a clean slate, that he would eventually resort to being “bad” because it was innate, a part of his core nature. At his age, either a person has a conscience or they don’t, and his actions seem to point towards he doesn’t. But of course we’re dealing with a TV show so I guess all is fair… If the writing were to be believable (and responsible), I would be open for a Ward redemption sl. I haven't completely ruled it out.

a fine mess

Yeah, he did kill May without hesitation. I guess I'm just in denial. I love Grant, or the Grant in season 1 when we did not know of the disguise. Nurture / nature definitely played a part, as for most villainous characters. They aren't born evil, but taught to do bad things or something happened in their life to make them turn towards evil deeds. Sometimes it isn't that easy to resort to the good side again.

Demileto

It does seem like that, but I think it'll end up being indeed nurture that made Grant violent like that, it's just that we haven't been clued yet on a key element of his past: how important Thomas is to him. I discuss this in depth in a blog post in the MCU wiki, but gist is that he loved Thomas very, very much, it tore him apart to do all those bad things he did to his little brother on the behalf of Christian and he now believes to have lost him forever. Since then he has obsessively sought to help those he cares about in a vain attempt to atone for what he did to Thomas, often in detriment of the welfare of others around him, giving them only token care, if much. It fits all too well when you think about it:

* he did Garrett's bidding in season 1 because the latter helped him through a really hard time when he was all but hollow. Garrett gave him new purpose in life and Grant was so thankful for that that he'd do even his mentor's cruelest biddings in order to save him from death;
* he dropped Fitz and Simmons in the ocean because he was torn between two people he cared about, Garrett and Fitz, so he went with the fence straddler option of dropping the container out the plane and leave their fate to, well, fate;
* without Garrett he found new purpose in his love with Skye, so he obsessively sought to reunite father and daughter so she'd forgive him and accept him again in her life. After Skye "thanked" him with four bullets in his chest he clung on Kara, who helped him in that dark time, trying to heal her the only way he knows how to heal in those situations: to be utterly cruel to those who abuse them. That's what he (supposedly?) did with Christian and the parents and that's what he wanted to do with Bobbi;
* he now has no one else to care about, all the ones that he did are either dead or turned against him, so he's now forming a team against SHIELD because vengeance for being used again as a weapon to destroy a loved one of his is all that he has left.

As such, the idea that Lincoln is Thomas and that we have a brother reunion on the horizon would certainly be a very, very interesting development for Grant, because it'd mean that he screwed up his life completely for nothing. I sense a breakdown coming!


Oh, I don't know, aren't we forgetting about psychopaths here? Not saying Grant is one - in fact I don't believe him to be one, seeing him more as deranged - but they DO exist and the bad things they do is all nature.

gingerly

Anyone have a title suggestion for the next thread?

Tech Noir

I haven’t watched The Well in a while. But from my recollection, Ward did seem to feel bad about what he was forced to do to Thomas, which of course would imply that he was capable of empathy, guilt, and a conscience (traits missing in a psychopath). So yeah, I can see the nurture part of it now. That being said, if Ward were to be redeemed, do you feel the show would/should hold him responsible for his crimes (especially the killings)? And how so?
And I do like the idea of Lincoln turning out to be Thomas.

Roxy, I would love to agree with you, but unfortunately there’s a lot of data and research out there that points towards the very scary reality that some people are just naturally “evil.” Also, after Simmons (my favorite character) went “darker,” I was better able to empathize with fans who still stand with Ward. It’s tough seeing a character you love go “dark.”

Gingerly, I don’t know about a full title, but we had discussed earlier about changing the “Specialist” part to “Wild Card.”

classex12

Well, I love him dark. Seems like I'm in the minority

indigo sunrise

No, I find him much more interesting as a villain than I ever did in season 1 to be honest... I just want to know once and for all what his motives are and who he really is

As for a title, I can't really think of much. Maybe something about his last scene in the finale? 'Because he’s done flying solo and is looking for closure' is the only thing that comes to mind... anyone want to start the new thread? Another title is totally cool too

a fine mess

http://www.fanforum.com/f416/wild-ca.../#post82452074

Continue!