Orphan Black - "Clutch of Greed" (5x02): Episode Discussion - Page 3

BrooklynFan · 06-17-2017, 08:27 PM

Wow, yeah Kira sucked this episode. She's supposed to be the super-intuitive one; how could she diss her mom and side with "Auntie Rachel" after everything that's happened?? She's supposed to somehow intuit what's going on. Does this mean Rachel actually has good intentions now? i can't believe that. I guess Kira's bat radar is on the fritz, but I was mad at her tonight.

And MK's death was so unnecessary. Why with a cure in sight would she just be "tired" and resigned to sitting there until she was found and killed? I don't mind the show including some painful deaths--the stakes need to be real--but this felt so artificial and unnecessary.

I am dying to see what happens with the whole Delphine working with Mrs. S angle.

**majesdane** · 06-17-2017, 08:32 PM

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Does this mean Rachel actually has good intentions now? i can't believe that.

rachel only cares about herself. if sarah and the others still haven't figured that out in 5 seasons, kira's not gonna figure it out in 5 minutes. rachel ALWAYS plays nice if it gets her what she wants. and then she bides her time until she can get the upper hand. ALWAYS. i don't believe 1 single word of her enlightened bull****.

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Why with a cure in sight would she just be "tired" and resigned to sitting there until she was found and killed? I don't mind the show including some painful deaths--the stakes need to be real--but this felt so artificial and unnecessary.

exactly.

as far as PT westmoreland goes, i don't trust him for even a second. he's so purposefully vague and "enlightened". i would put money down right now he's a complete bull****ter. he's good at making it sound like he's so smart, but i'll bet in the end he's nothing more than the frontpiece of neolution, nothing more, nothing less. just an opportunity for neolution to experiment on vulnerable people. there's something going on with mud and the messanger, imho. i don't think they're who they appear to be.

Aurora Cormier · 06-17-2017, 08:44 PM

This was the worst episode ever. Like, literally the whole point of it was to kill MK because one clone HAD to die. And I get it, like Brooklyn said, the stakes need to be real, but it was unbelievably violent, like the way he killed her was like torture, he was actually enjoying himself doing it, watching her die a little bit more with each jump, what the actual ****, who even wrote this and who the hell thought that was GOOD??? I mean, I can see that sort of murder happening in other shows, but seemed totally not an OB thing, I don't know, it was just traumatizing to me. I really loved MK, but even if I didn't, this still would've been unacceptable to me. I was so shocked and so angry and so full of feelings and I couldn't even cry. And I couldn't even enjoy the rest of the episode, it was the same as when Delphine was shot, they do something incredibly violent and then the episode goes on like nothing happened and I'm supposed to care! Now I really don't

Whatever happens to garbage Ferdinand now doesn't even matter to me anymore, I wanted him to die, but now I don't even care anymore, nothing they can do to him will make me feel better. Same for Rachel, I've wanted her to die and now I don't care about her, about a happy ending to the show, about anything. I feel angry already knowing that MK died this horrible death when most clones barely even knew her and therefore will never even CARE about what happened to her.

And yes about Kira, I can't believe that for all her sensitivity crap she can't FEEL HER OWN MOTHER. And Sarah's saga is getting ridiculous, every episode she gets ****ed over for half an hour trying to save people only to get to them and have them be like NO I'M NOT GOING WITH YOU BYE.

**majesdane** · 06-17-2017, 08:55 PM

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This was the worst episode ever.

i didn't think they could top s3's ****tiness, but this episode was pointless AND awful.

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who even wrote this and who the hell thought that was GOOD???

these are the same people who thought delphine getting shot and tmas being ACTUALLY waterboarded for a scene was good drama. ofc even tmas is like, "yeah idgi", but she's gonna defend it anyway with some BS. that's why i un-stanned her a long time ago. she should just say NOTHING, but she always has to defend every storyline and act like it's so ~~~deep .... stop.

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Whatever happens to garbage Ferdinand now doesn't even matter to me anymore, I wanted him to die, but now I don't even care anymore, nothing they can do to him will make me feel better. Same for Rachel, I've wanted her to die and now I don't care about her,

you say that now, and i get it, but in the end it'll still be satisfying to see rachel and ferdinand's inevitable brutal deaths. trust me. even if it's a hollow sort of satisfaction, it will still feel better than seeing those ****ty characters live.

i've been hardcore advocating for rachel's death since mid-s2. honestly if 90% of this cast died i'd be happy, as long as cophine lived, because every other character either was always ****ty, has become intolerable, and/or has just become pointless/useless. mk didn't even have to die, they could have just written her off forever like they did with tony. they just wanted another dead clone because, "see??? it's ironic somehow??? also patriarchy???"

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And yes about Kira, I can't believe that for all her sensitivity crap she can't FEEL HER OWN MOTHER.

**** kira and **** her magical psychic abilities that i've hated since day 1.

ETA: just looked the writer of tonight's episode up on imdb ... it's the only OB episode he's ever written. ofc he's also got some ****ty LG episodes under his belt, why am i not surprised.

manu, you remember the one where bo and dyson pretended to be married in s1? this dude wrote that.

danvers · 06-17-2017, 08:59 PM

sigh. I'm regretting watching these episodes live, to be honest. this hour dragged and I literally closed my stream the moment kira started acting like a little bitch. also, was I supposed to care about the clone that got killed? IDEK.

**majesdane** · 06-17-2017, 09:00 PM

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Originally Posted by danvers (View Post)

sigh. I'm regretting watching these episodes live, to be honest. this hour dragged

at 1st the episode started out good. right about the halfway point i wanted to just throw my tv out the window.

**majesdane** · 06-17-2017, 09:08 PM

sorry for the DP. here's what the writer had to say:

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Ferdinand does not like Rachel’s new Zen-like vibe, and takes out his rage on M.K. Why was the decision made to kill poor M.K.?
Very early on in our discussions for the season, we came to the realization that M.K. would be dying for a number of story reasons and character reasons, and it made sense for that to happen at the hands of Ferdinand because of their ugly history together that was still left unfinished. So apart from the story reasons for that to happen, there’s a very personal, emotional reason for M.K. and Ferdinand to come together in that way and for Ferdinand—because of everything else that he’s going through—to act so horrifically. And the tragic result is something which will have some ripples throughout the next few episodes.

M.K.’s death was shockingly violent.
Orphan Black is not a show that traffics in violence for violence sake. It all comes from character and scene. So the horrific violence we see on Ferdinand’s part is really an extension of the awful power structure in which the sisters find themselves, the patriarchy, and a lot of male control and a lot of male violence. So Ferdinand killing M.K. is a very concrete example of the kind of danger in which the sisters find themselves.

It certainly reminds viewers of just how dangerous Ferdinand is.
It really does, and it gets to the reality behind all the fun we’re having, which is the patriarchal power struggle that exists really has the potential to result in horrible violence.

Orphan Black 502: Writer Jeremy Boxen breaks down “Clutch of Greed” | TV, eh?

sure jan

Aurora Cormier · 06-17-2017, 09:29 PM

Oh my God, I hate whoever taught the word "patriarchy" to these people, they really think they can get away with anything as long as they say they had feminism on their minds the whole time. Seriously, **** them all.

Less Than Perfect · 06-17-2017, 09:36 PM

Last week's episode was so good, but this week it really wasn't.

I thought MK was alright, she wasn't my favourite by any means and I know clones had to die, but god that was horrible. Her death was everything to do with Rachel rejecting Ferdinand and very little to do with Ferdinand actually being pissed at MK for stealing his money. The whole thing was a role play for him and it was disgusting. I'm not sure how her death is supposed to have ripples given that next week's episode looks to be all about Alison, but by the end of the season Ferdinand's body better be disposed of in some gruesome way because he 100% deserves that. Not just for MK's death but all the clones he killed during Helsinki.

MK dying because of him was totally unnecessary. That is not a parallel that I needed. Two seconds before Ferdinand comes in MK is panicking about needing more data, like she needed to be the one to find it and then gives up the moment he knocks the knife away. I know she's sick but MK definitely had more fight in her.

On top of MK's death we had to see Rachel and Ferdinand in a position I would very much like to forget, had a reminder that Susan and Ira did the dirty and Kira was being a pain. Surely Kira can feel that Rachel is up to something.

PT Westmoreland is a strange dude. So is everyone else on the island. Cosima was right not to let Charlotte have the vitamins but she was far too willing to drink the wine with PT. I'll give her a pass because she'd just been told that the cure was working.

I didn't really care for Helena and Donnie this episode. Or the little Alison and Art were in it. I found it really weird that suddenly Art has basically given up as well. He's got his life on the line but he's never been so compliant before.

I really hope Delphine showing up at the end means that her and Mrs S are going to genuinely be working together. Don't tease me like this for no reason, OB.

Next week's episode doesn't seem very exciting.

danvers · 06-17-2017, 09:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Carmilla (View Post)

sorry for the DP. here's what the writer had to say:

just shut the **** up.

this episode annoyed me so much that I missed the 2 seconds of delphine

Aurora Cormier · 06-17-2017, 10:27 PM

This Tumblr post sums up my feelings about MK's death:

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i know there’s a long, long list of things that upset me about [gestures vaguely to s5e2] everything, but here’s something that’s getting me: mk never meant anything to the writers. they introduced her, had her in two episodes as enigma ex machina, gave her a rushed and sloppy vengeance quest that they didn’t let her complete, got her sick, got bored of her, and let her die. they gave her nothing. they had so many chances to let her mean something, to let her goddamn life mean something, and they threw them out over and over again. and then she died, and it was pointless.

they meant to kill her in the s4 finale, they’ve said this over and over again, and they delayed it for two episodes – two episodes where she could have done anything, anything, two episodes where she could have talked about her past and her trauma, two episodes where she could have been a part of the family, two episodes where she could have – i don’t know. what’s the point of listing it. why should i put in more effort than the writers did.

but my point: they didn’t care. they didn’t want to make anything out of mk, and they didn’t care. the fans came up with better theories about what mk’s presence might mean on the show – helsinki vs. now; mk invoking helena’s old guilt; mk reconnecting with rachel for the first time since they met each other at cambridge, the place where mk got her scars – than the writers did. the writers did not care enough to even do a little bit of it. they didn’t even – i don’t know. they didn’t even. anything. even a little bit of anything.

they spent so much time setting her up in the comics. her name was veera. she had a hoodie whose strings she pulled on. she had a computer with stickers on it. she’d never been to a party. she liked fantasy and sci-fi novels. she had asperger’s, and she didn’t like talking about it. she had a friend. she had a friend, and that friend was murdered by ferdinand chevalier, and so she had a goal: stopping him, and doing the only thing she could do for the memory of her best and only friend.

none of that. none of it. the writers let her die, her body will be dragged away, the show will forget about her. the characters will too, because how many of them knew her? really? how many?

god, i knew her. her name was veera, for a little while, and it was mk, and it was mika, and she deserved better than this – she deserved something, anything, because anything would have been better than this.

ForumFanatic · 06-17-2017, 10:31 PM

****, Ferdinand doing that really was a necessary step back to the reality of how much of a repugnant creep he is when he's denied his kinks. Not every clone can take down their oppressor. I fully expected MK to get her hit on Ferdinand eventually, so this was a twist on what I expected from her arc. I'm sure the other 5/6 clones will get their happy ending (50/50 on Rachel), and MK is the last clone tragedy.

Kira made the right decision. Sarah was being so selfish, and lying to her to boot.

503 and 504 are about Alison and Helena? Then the next two weeks are going to be a treat.

I was hoping a better character would be behind S' door.

BrooklynFan · 06-18-2017, 06:19 AM

Oy. I fear we're going to hear more half-baked discussions of "the patriarchy" than my delicate feminine sensibilities can bear.

I don't think that something like MK's death is necessarily bad because it is difficult and unpleasant to watch. This has always been a high stakes show, from right off the bat with Beth's suicide, and dark events and real consequences have to be a part of it. And it's true that Ferdinand has history with her and the sadistic way he killed her is totally in keeping with his character. My complaint about it is that it seemed pointless and out of character for MK to just give up and stay in the loft when she could have easily met Sarah at the rendezvous and escaped. Her death would have had more meaning if it were set up in a more believable and true-to-character way.

That Tumbler post about MK/Vera is incredibly eloquent, and it's true that there was so much potential to this character that was never realized. However, I'm also sympathetic to the writers in that this show has so many rich characters that there's just not enough time to properly develop everyone. They're very good at suggesting depths in briefly introduced characters-- so much so that they get themselves into trouble because we want to know more about these people.

I'm curious though what the "story and character" reasons for her death were. I hope it has meaningful repercussions in future episodes, and wasnt just a way to get rid of a minor character to whom they couldn't devote any more time.

Totally disagree that Sarah was "being selfish." She's done nothing this season but try desperately at great personal cost to save people who end up refusing to be saved. She's right not to trust Rachel, last seen gut-stabbing her own mother and trying viciously to kill Sarah. And Kira's weird "sensibilities" seem oddly off in this case.

**majesdane** · 06-18-2017, 06:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Aurora Cormier (View Post)

Oh my God, I hate whoever taught the word "patriarchy" to these people, they really think they can get away with anything as long as they say they had feminism on their minds the whole time. Seriously, **** them all.

yep.

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I'm curious though what the "story and character" reasons for her death were. I hope it has meaningful repercussions in future episodes, and wasnt just a way to get rid of a minor character to whom they couldn't devote any more time.

$5 says nothing really happens except maybe westmoreland gets pissed because one of his clones dies. maybe he'll have ferdinand killed or something.

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Totally disagree that Sarah was "being selfish." She's done nothing this season but try desperately at great personal cost to save people who end up refusing to be saved. She's right not to trust Rachel, last seen gut-stabbing her own mother and trying viciously to kill Sarah. And Kira's weird "sensibilities" seem oddly off in this case.

x2

Scully_fan · 06-18-2017, 06:41 AM

You know after this episode I think it would have been better if they had just had MK disappear into obscurity and never heard from again which would have been perfectly in character for her to do. I mean yes it was a gruesome death, but added to it was the "completion of Helsinki" that left me feeling the most hollow I've ever felt watching this show. I'm not rage quitting, I didn't even hate the episode like some of you, but I do feel disappointed that this is what they did with her. Her death was very much gruesome for gruesome's sake, nothing more to it.

What Helena did to the nurse as well was unnecessary horror. She could have just knocked her out against the bed not push the needle all the way through her face into the mattress like that when she's just doing her job.

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Kira made the right decision.

I'd hesitate to call it the right decision because she's choosing Rachel... which can surely never end well, but I did like that Kira stood up to Sarah (lets remember Sarah before all of this was estranged to Kira, I'm surprised Kira hasn't rebelled more). I'm not sure if NOW was the right time to do it, but she made her own choice, and well imo it makes sense if she wants answers for herself, if Kira wants to stop running and confront the situation.

Speaking of super powered offspring Helena's babies. So it is confirmed that it's a genetic passed down through a clone thing. I was beginning to wonder if Cal could have been the spawn of a Neo and thus Kira had inherited her "powers" thanks to both her parents being biologically different somehow, but obvs not if Helena's twins can heal too.

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I found it really weird that suddenly Art has basically given up as well. He's got his life on the line but he's never been so compliant before.

Well it's not just about Art's life anymore. Neolution are directly threatening his daughter now so his compliance is sudden, but not weird imo.

I LOL'd when PT Westmoreland came onscreen. I don't know what I was expecting, but not this guy. I have this kind of idea in my head that it'd be really cool if the guy Cosima was talking to is a front, a stand in, for the real PT Westmoreland who due to being 170 is hooked up to some crazy life machine somewhere barely surviving, probably suffering, and the secret to longevity is not this good, not this real, but Neolution need people to believe it is. I just want it to be a sham. I want the man behind the curtain to be revealed and be completely pathetic and Neolution are pedalling a bunch of lies. I'm not even going to discount that the "creature" in the woods could be the real Westmoreland at this point.

I did find it interesting however that PT reiterated "follow the science" to Cosima which was Neolutions catchprase last season and something that Delphine almost echoed in 5x01. I don't believe for one second Delphine believes in the sentiment the same way as PT, but she does want Cosima to discover the truth, follow the science and realise what is really going on with Neolution and Revival, whereas PT seems to think there's an enlightenment to following the science and this is backed up through Rachel, who has, to use his terminology, "considered the cow".

Delphine working with Mrs S is everything I want to see. It makes me wonder even more about the cut scene from S3, but I'm glad we have them now. I've no idea how Delphine managed to get to her house though, unless she was never meant to be in Sardinia.


Fan Forum > Archived Television Shows > Orphan Black > "Clutch of Greed" (5x02): Episode Discussion