Episode Discussion 3.06 | This Red Lady from Caribee { Airs November 5th }
 

Zero comments so far :lol:

I take it tonight's episode was another lackluster showing?

My Twitter timeline seems split between ppl who think Shernold Edward should write every episode and people who think the show should be put out to pasture.

I was underwhelmed by it as I have been with the majority of the eps this season.

It's like the 'spark" is gone.

Dunno, maybe it's just me.

Definitely agree.
I still have to probably watch this full episode but that urge for me to watch Sleepy Hollow course has sadly ran out I believe. :( I think if I accidentally missed a week I wouldn't feel anything and it definitely wouldn't matter because there is no storyline so it's not like I'd miss anything.

The interest and spark is gone for me. It was during Season 2 but I stayed with the show... and now it's gone for me again because I don't feel like it's nothing to look forward to. Even though I've enjoyed the episodes I think I'm still upset with no Headless Horseman this season to be quite honest.:look:

It's not just you. I feel that way big time.


I’ve also noticed there is overall a lot less commenting on episodes, discussion, etc…..this season. At least here.

The plot moved forward in this episode, and I enjoyed the Jenny/Joe stuff once again, but that’s about all I can say for it. Hated the monster of the week.

I’ve been extremely bored with this season overall. The only thing not boring me is Jenny and Joe. Their interaction is great and feels fresh to the show in an otherwise lackluster season. I also frankly feel like Greenwood and Appelman are giving better performances overall than the two leads.

The spark is definitely missing in this show now. I also have felt in the actor's performances at times.

The Headless Horseman being so casually gotten rid of in the season premiere was a huge issue for me, and I honestly can’t figure out why I didn’t tune out after that. Right then and there. I think I’ve stayed because even though I’ve lost a lot of investment in this show, I still hope it will improve again. I had a deep love for this show, felt it had the potential to be one of my favorites of all time.

No Headless is one of my biggest issues (SH=Headless), but there’s also a distinct lack of energy/urgency to the writing, the plot, and the characters; the monsters are generally nowhere near the level of what we had in the previous seasons, which, even if they weren’t scary were still usually very creepy; the procedural format and the move to GA has damaged the atmosphere and overall tone of the show, IMO. Pointless characters added only to be love interests: Betsy, Zoe, Daniel. Also, I miss Irving. And, last but certainly not least, the writing of Ichabod Crane, which has become a multi-season problem.

Boring is one of the worst things a show/book/movie can be, and SH has been the definition of boring overall to me this year.

I’ve been rewatching season two, and as much as I hated Henry & Katrina, I would confidently argue as of right now that at least half of season two was miles above anything we’ve gotten this year minus the “Tooth Fairy” ep (written by the same writer who wrote Midnight Ride, so that helps explain it)- I don’t even remember the name off hand, though, which is a sign of my feelings on the season.

From This is War through to The Abyss Gazes Back + Mama, Magnus Opus, Paradise Lost, and Tempus Fugit were all leagues above any season 3 ep to me (minus the one mentioned above) even if they had Henry and Katrina in it. There was still a sense of urgency, energy, atmosphere, to many of the episodes, and overall it still felt like Sleepy Hollow, and not some random supernatural procedural.

Season two had a couple major issues in the form of two characters, but that didn't mean we should've ended up here.

The worst thing for me is where they left off at the season two finale - a free agent Headless + the original core four ready to kick ass + an open road for stories………and we ended up here. It speaks to a huge lack of writing creativity and creative energy to me. And if anything summed up this show in its conception, it was those two things.

You said everything I've been feeling about this show much better than I ever could. Except for the Jenny and Joe moments I was bored.

I thought the show started strong with the first episodes, but it does seem to slide into mediocre now.

I feel like they tried to clean things up after season 2 but the cleaners did such an immaculate job that no finger print or smell of home is left. It's been bleached and sterilized to the point of being beyond recognition.

I do still enjoy the monster aspect, especially with the more creepy monsters like the tooth fairy. And it feels like they are trying to focus more on Abbie this time around which has been much needed.

But yeah, the heart is gone. I dont even need Ichabbie to be romantic, but after three years they act barely more than two colleagues it seems a bit off putting. Especially since season 1 Crane would never have let Abbie stay so closed off from him. And season 1 Abbie would have never looked more annoyed than terrified when Crane was in mortal peril. They both have had stints in the hospital this season and their alleged partners have barely spent more than a minute at their bedside before they are off dealing with their own personal lives. When they are together, its only business, aside from the few stray comments from Abbie praising Modern Betsy Ross, a woman she barely knows btw. Anyhow yeah, it is sad and it is a definite weakness.

I do enjoy Jenny and Joe as well but dont think their storyline is enough to carry the show.

Maybe when the two leads stop behaving like strangers and more like two people with this allegedly insanely powerful bond who have travelled through space and time together, it might feel like the old show again. But yeah without the heart the show cant survive.

Well, I'm going to disagree with everyone. Been so busy with work (day off, what's that?) that I've little time to post lots about the show. Coupled with the fact that I've kinda stepped back and am looking at the show through a different set of goggles. There is a certain pair goggles that everyone is viewing the show with, that is possibly tainting their view though overall. I'll explain, but first I'll post what I posted over at PTV.
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/Someone asked about the awkwards bows that Crane's doing for Zoe - I responded:

No, but those deep bows pale in comparison to the original one in season one. They are no where near as sexy as that one (and actually different in form). Maybe season one's was Mison just being a goof and improvised, and these ones are scripted.

Because I've seen the promotional photos for the next episode, and read enough about what's going on, I have an idea of what Pandora's plan is. I will say though, that opening that tree was freaky, because I was expecting a crap-load of evil demons and the like to fly out of there or something.

/Someone has asked about the six types of fear that Pandora unleashed - I responded:

Because I am a nerd, I wrote them down (because I was curious).

The six are: Secrets. Chaos. Loneliness. Death. Lost Innocence* (? This one was really hard to hear, I couldn't quite understand her it sounded like she said Innocence or Innocence Lost), and Fear.

Anyway, good episode actually. I really enjoyed it and time flew. Still loving Pandora as a villian. Blown away by the jealousy that apparently Daniel has for Abbie. He was scared of Abbie - who he obviously thinks is the better agent - one-upping him, taking over, etc. Very interesting. However, it's clear that he loves/loved her, but she's so closed to relationships that it would never go anywhere. He just talking about the shack by the beach and them spending time there together sounded intriguing. Wish we could see flashbacks for that (probably never, since it'd be R-rated - hee). Interesting that Abbie is very vary about long-term commitments, which fits her personality. She's afraid of being alone, but is unwilling to take that leap to NOT be alone. I'm actually glad that Daniel doesn't know the Supernatural stuff going on, that he forgot. Oh, and her takedown of this guy twice her size was beautiful.

The "date" surprisingly didn't bother me. It just makes me feel meh. If Crane wants a dull cutesy girly girl, that that's what he wants? I will say that his interactions with Zoe are a helluva lot more believable than his interactions with Katrina. There is actual chemistry there. It's cute, sweet, saccharine and non-threatening Sweet Valley High type of stuff, but no where near the level of intensity he has with Abbie. I'm not into sugary sweet romances myself, but its cute. And Tolerable. That's the key. Tolerable.

Jenny Mills. What can I say about her. I totally have a girl-crush on Jenny, because she was just so awesome and looked so beautiful this episode (well, every episode). I am really enjoying how much more they are giving us of Jenny. Moar please. Joe and Jenny could have their own show and I'd be all over it. But what the heck absorbed into her body?? Now a specific spoiler make total sense. There are three (two?) episodes till the mid-season finale - I see where this is going and I like it.

Forgot to add - the "Herb Purveyor?" Yum, and hilarious scene. Like that guy (yum) can he come back? When his eyes switched to creepy full on white, that was creepy. And interesting.

NR really isn't a good actress, is she? That flashback was not good. Onira Tares was fine, but NR trying to be "tough" was just terrible. And no woman would be allowed to wear pants without punishment. I'm not being sexist, I'm stating fact. There were laws. In fact, woman in the late 1800's (suffragettes) were thrown into jail for daring to wear "men's clothes". She's just not believable as a tough, saavy spy. A debutant at a ball, maybe, but not an ass-kicking spy. It's funny how this show is so amazing at casting 90% of the roles. Then there is a misstep here and there, which makes you wonder why? Or who??

One thing I noticed is that the show has a more gritty, more darkness to it, which I actually like. This episode I felt flowed really smoothly, was connected well. I am really enjoying this season.

/End post

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I think many people are annoyed with this season for one core reason and one reason only - one that I've been a victim of last season, but I think have just accepted it and decided to move on, so to speak. Simply put - shipping. I got really angry last year, over the obvious lack of Ichabbie that is such a beautiful ship and pairing, but that it wasn't happening. This year, I've resigned myself to knowing - nope, ain't gonna happen because there is no time. The show WILL be cancelled at the end of the year due to ratings.

However, people are really missing the little pieces of the puzzle that Cliff is putting together, that no one recognized since it's just about Ichabbie.

First, the little reveals by Pandora of what she is trying to do. Like a novel where every chapter or so drops a hint, so you start speculating and debating and thinking of WHAT those hints are, that's what Cliff is doing. He's dropping little hints here and there, with Pandora, with Abbie, etc. Think about the last episode. We keep getting more and more clues about Abbie, that she is the reserved on, that Daniel does love her, but she walking away. Why did she walk away? I want to know. Is she scared of getting hurt. Of losing those close to her if SHE gets too close. This is being slowly revealed more and more as the season goes one.

Same with Pandora - what's her ultimate endgame? I think I have an idea (posted above). For the record, I didn't explain it because it belonged in another thread, but what I THINK she's doing But notice the show left a nice cliffhanger for the next episode. We should WANT to be worried and anticpate what's gonna happen to her.

Zoe is just there - as Shernold Edwards pointed out, they have a plan. However, unlike Goffman, I can SEE this plan and that it's definitely headed somewhere. Zoe is going to allow character growth the two. How? She's going to help Crane realize things, and maybe then Abbie. We don't know how yet, because this is something that is going to play slowly throughout the show.

What I really noticed now (and have been a victim of in the past) is that from the different tumblers I've read, twitters, forums here and elsewhere, most people are writing of this show because Crane and Abbie are not in bed with each other RIGHT NOW.

Trust me, you know I want that too. Screw the slow burn, because I'm impatient. But I see what Cliff and company are doing. Last season was terrible. This season has a nice flow to it, story upon story being fleshed out slowly, more details coming out over and over again.

But instead, because the ship hasn't happened, everyone is saying this show sucks this season. No it doesn't (IMO). Look at Jenny's story, with Corbin. They are slowly bringing out why this shard is so important, Jenny's role as artifact hunter, this new person Sophia (who become important later on), the importance of Peter Mensah's role, how Joe is started to get more and more into finding out about his father's legacy.

There are some beautiful scenes with Abbie and Crane this season. There are personal times between them, downtime that I love. It's all a journey that I an enjoying, tbh. Last year, I wanted to throw things at the screen. This year I am enjoying it.

But back to what I'm saying. Everyone is missing the overall clues and hints and interconnecting stories because everyone is SO ANGRY because of Ichabbie. Do you really think that Cliff is going to flat out say "no" or "yes" to the result. NO TV show does that - it's all about teasing the viewer. I've read people dismiss Cliff as having no control, slamming Mison for no good reason, claiming the writers are free-range without Cliff controlling them?? Cliff is the boss, Cliff has a plan, and just because the plan hasn't yet come to fruition yet, doesn't mean it won't. No TV show will tell you exactly what will happen.

I understand the impatience - I have it too. But I've kinda stepped back and looked at it from a story standpoint, and the little clues and hints are interesting me. Am I sad about no ship. Hell ya. Do I think Zoe is the longterm. God no. Means to an end. It's obvious. Same with Daniel. That last scene where he told Abbie he loved her, and her expression - that was compelling to me and well-done.

It just seems to me, that so many people are focused on the shipping, that they are missing important pieces of the puzzle for the entire season. Last season HAD no pieces, simply because they repeated over and over again the same thing. But this season is more nuanced, more complex with great personal stories for all of the characters, and with little reveals here and there.

I guess I'm thinking like the TV show How to Get Away with Murder. Every episode you get little reveals here and there, slowly moving towards the ultimate conclusion and final answers. SH is doing that now.

Instead, everyone is focusing on BR (a non-entity for plot purposes), Zoe (plot/character growth purpose), Crane and money and that's it.

There, that's my unpopular opinion - as someone who ships with the force of 1000 suns, I see where it's going, am sad that everyone is getting really upset because of the ship not happening now, because you are missing some good stuff.

I do see your point about this season being more clear and concise Halcyon and agree. I dont know if for me the disappointment all hinges on shipping Ichabbie in a romantic sense, but more so that they dont have the same relationship they did in the past. That to me is the sad part. Abbie didnt really care when Ichabod had been stabbed and Ichabod couldnt wait to get out of the hospital when Abbie was admitted. Maybe if this was the first season these things wouldn't seem like they were coming out of left field.

Some things that do annoy me though is Ichabod constantly talking about Miss Corinth, Abbie trying to get them together and gush all the time about this woman she doesn't know, NR's poor acting (she is not a good period actress), and baiting like the Bones episode where you have Bones telling Ichabod that he should consider taking things with Abbie deeper? Kind of like rubbing salt in open wounds because we know they wont happen.

I also agree that tumblr is a very evil place. Unfortunately I still like to peruse for gifs since they help me catch things I hadnt noticed on first viewing, but the comments there... Talk about filled with vitriol. And not only for characters but fans as well. I wish there was a place one could go to just read factual articles and art work about the shows without knowing what people think. Most of the time Im left with a bitter taste after going through these posts.

Anyhow, I will continue to watch since there are still enjoyable elements to the show. I do love the darker stuff, Joe/Jenny, Pandora, and the more concise storytelling. My only wish is that Ichabbie had the same connection/bond they did in season 1.

I hope they can turn it around and not be cancelled, but sadly this seems to be the direction they're headed. This is where I am right now too as far as shipping but I didn't really get there until last week. Luckily I've been able to enjoy this season even though I ship, my biggest gripe is when the writers insist upon acting like fat meat ain't greasy when everyone already knows it is. Stop pretending like every woman is checking for this super oddly dressed, albeit handsome man in Ichabod, and no one sees Abbie. We have eyeballs, and we know better, and to be honest they already no better so I'm glad in this episode they finally started doing better. I still do hope that maybe, possibly they'll have time to give us a romantic Ichabbie ending that's worthy of the pairing but I'm not holding my breath, that's on them.

I literally have it in my head as cannon that Crane has held exhibitions for the historical society which he curates, and thereby generated some income. Because if he is literally chilling, mooching off of his bestie, not thinking about getting a job, I would think so much less of his character. This isn't season one when he was begging Abbie for a new phone, and even though his poutiness was cute, the simple act of begging someone for a better version of something they provided for you out of the kindness of their heart is unbecoming. That was all easy to overlook because he was very much a new fish out of water, and still finding his way. He's been dockside a minute now, and he needs to pull himself up by his bootstraps, and get his life together. So in my world he has a job so I don't not like him.

I really liked this weeks episode, I thought it was interesting, had some excitement, and it was genuinely funny. Overall I felt it was a very solid episode.

What the heck was Crane looking at the chef like that for, I was dying. I didn't mind the date scene with Zoe this week, it seemed to flow better than all of the others scenes they've been in, lets be honest she's kinda seemed like a stage 5 clinger thus far, showing up at his place uninvited and unannounced, then lowkey snapping pictures of him. But even then I really different feel any type of way about her, until last week when the writers decided to take something that Abbie said previously and randomly have it become something she said. That's just lazy, but not her fault, theirs.

I like the storyline as far as the locust. Loved how Abbie was informing Crane about the nature of his decision maker, justice is supposed to be blind but honestly knowing the likes and dislikes, and motivations of the judge you're going before will help tremendously. Good nod to her legal background right there. The courtroom scene had me rolling, he literally told the bailiff to shoot the attorney, well acted and written, I was dead.

All of the interaction with Jenny and Joe and Nevins was entertaining and I enjoyed watching it. Though I cannot for the life of me understand why Jenny thought everything was all G after the stone was absorbed into her skin. Tell someone.

I don't know what Pandora is up to, but SS is doing a great job because I'm loving hating her. She seems to have no fear of our witnesses whatsoever and I can't wait to see her plan come together. That being said, I really hope it ends up being a worthy storyline, I'm super intrigued right now, so I hope her aims are as interesting as the buildup has been. When she caught the arrow I was like :eek:. Maybe Crane should have told Abbie how that went down, and how she cooly let him know that the only reason she wasn't about to jack his stuff up more was because she had a prior engagement, then maybe Abbie wouldn't be all "bring it on". Really? They need to get it together, she's been running through them, already touched both of them, and they haven't touched her once. She already brought it Abbie, "it's already been brought'n" lol. I hope they continue to delve into her motivations more because right now, their chasing their tails.


Lance Gross was phenomenal this episode, the scene in the car was just great, when he got out of the car I was screaming for Abbie to lock the door, lol. I felt so sad for him when he was opening up to her, basically telling her that she doesn't realize the effect she has on people. I don't think this is going to happen because of their new work dynamic, I honestly don't believe Abbie would let it, but damn can we get a flashback. This little bit was the first bit of info we've gotten as to the depth of their relationship.

Honestly though, I had around five friends who were religiously watching and loving this show, I'm the only one who was a shipper, and I'm the only one still watching. Everyone bailed during season two, for the same reason. One came back, and bailed when they realized Irving was gone. They just lost a lot of viewers and I'm not sure they can come back from that.

Yes, I get exactly what you are saying, but at the same time I think that it is how these two would react honestly. For example, season 2, Abbie who was pulled into the water, via the Weeping Lady, and pulled out via Ichabod, his reaction would not be correct. It was overwrought when I first viewed it (but never said it). This is a man who is used to the horrors of war. This is nothing. Yes, it is his beloved, but he should be used to this type of crap.

Stoic, reserved, desperately holding back emotion is what I WOULD expect from Captain Crane, and from Agent Mills. So this makes sense to me.

NR's acting is terrible. What can we say? This show casts nine times our of ten brilliant. The 10 percent is crap. Unfortunately, NR is that crap.

Maya Kazan as Zoe is not bad. Their little romance is cute. But fact is, that's not ultimately what Crane will want. We've already been told about how he likes the woman who are daring and go against the grain and are adventurous. Strong and powerful, yadda yadda.

Zoe so doesn't fit that bill. My prediction? She finds out the truth about Crane being from the 18th century, finds out he's a Witness, and flees due to (honestly) natural fear.

As for rubbing salt into wounds - that's the whole point of this season. Crane will get his rebound - which he needs - to figure out that boring cute little naive woman are not his thing (we already know that). Remember the Betsy line (no, of course not). /Paraphrase/ "One day, Ichabod, someone will make you lose your impropriety." Who do you think that is - Miss Abigail Mills!!

And what did Daniel say to Abbie?? "You have no idea how you affect people". aka, how she affects the men in her life. But no one caught this, because everyone is too busy lamenting the so called "lost ship". When Daniel was talking about Quantico, he said " We had a shack by the beach, the fan could barely cool the place down...But you left..." *paraphrased*. Basically, she trained at Quantico, excelled, pushed by Daniel Reynolds, had some messy romance by the beach, then decided to leave. Why is that?

First, I have to say, this show should be giving me those "flashbacks" to that "messy" romance.. but they won't because censorship. But why hasn't anyone put together that since day one (pilot), Abbie has been completely guarded to depthful relationships. She left Luke for Quantico, enjoyed Daniel for as long as it worked for her at Quantico, etc etc. Fact is, woman is work first, life second. And I don't care that I will say this, but it is NOT a "black woman thing". BS. It's a successful woman thing. Woman in this day and age unfortunately have to sacrifice a LOT to get ahead. Family, kids, whatever. But they do. To assume that Abbie is being written as "sexless" is the biggest pile of BS ever. She's being written as every woman who desires a career is.

Iscove was right - Abbie is not ready for a relationship - because she is unwilling to open herself up to. Pandora mentioned that during the Jack Ripper episode. To me, this is Abbie Mills. She fears the loss of her loves ones, so much that she pushes them away. She pushed away Jenny, she pushed away Luke, Daniel and always Crane. That is her protection. That is her cover. She knows if she lets these people get too close, that is her downfall. Yet Abbie Mills is empathic, loving and caring. But no one sees how she is so conflicted over her current life and current situation.


Let's just say this. Last season, I totally agreed with the slamming of the writing, of Goffman, of the crap they pulled with Katrina (because they destroyed her character), and destroyed Ichabod, yadda, yadda. Things never seemed to move forward. Just one step ahead, one step back. Whiny and boring. Not here for that, because I could not logically Accept it.

This season though is quite nice. A nice progression. Little hints here and there to make you wonder. Pandora is hands down the best villian this show has had. Yes, Headless in is initial incarnation was brilliant, but he was just violence and machine guns. Pandora is quiet menacing, deliberate calculation, a saavy villany that is most rewarding. She - hands down - is the most formidable villian this show has seen. Moloch? Please. Useless. Headless? Only effective with his machine gun. Pandora manipulated the circumstances so that the Witnesses would have to kill the demons she released..simply because she couldn't. She fooled these MFos - easily - to get what she wanted. How brilliant is that?

I agree with violasghost. Sleepy Hollow has been stripped of everything that made it special. The heart and soul of the show, which is the relationship between the two Witnesses, is gone and in its place are two people who seem more like distant colleagues. There is no bond. No me and you against the world, and that is not shipping, it is the original premise of the show that for some reason has been thrown away.

Fans are right to be disappointed.

Having said that, I also agree that the Sleepy Hollow fandom has indeed become increasing hostile, especially on Tumblr where anything goes. I’ve been attacked there several times for doing what I did here all last season… share information. But whereas I could say “Ichabbie isn’t getting together this season” on this board, and no one think anything of it, on Tumblr, they do things like post articles slandering my name and my site.

One of them even contacted Fox and told them I was posting screenshots from the advanced episodes I’d watched and that my articles were negative. They wanted Fox to scold me I guess or take away my screening privileges. Either way, Fox doesn’t pay me or control my site and my article is still up and as is.

Still, it left a bad taste in my mouth, as I’ve bent over backwards to supply this fandom with reliable information. But because I call Ichabbie like it is, a non-factor this season, some of them got made and have become borderline abusive. Other bloggers like ColorWeb have also felt the sting of Ichabbie shippers who don’t wanna hear their OTP may not be endgame. There is about 4 or 5 of them on Tumblr that I would actually call unstable. Sleepy Hollow is a tv show. And whereas it may inspire passionate debate, it is still just a tv show. I draw the line at crazy, and too many of us have now crossed that line this season.