Lethally Floral

Groff is a perfect "center" for this kind of scenario. He gives very classy, down-the-middle interviews. You'd think it'd be easy but I've seen so many actors mess it up.

Patrick's legs went a little higher; Richie's mouth went a little lower. Patrick expressed a little surprise and Richie told him not to worry about it since he (Patrick) had just taken a shower.

Just curious, are you from the US? The reason I ask is because I know other countries might have different codes so that could explain why we look at this a bit differently too. (Not that US people can't and won't ship this but I'm talking about employment law.)

It's one thing to have a relaxed company and campus. Big tech companies like Google and Facebook have pretty "fun" and relaxed perks of being an employee there. They're expected to work hard and play hard...all at the same place. But whether or not there are rules about sexual relationships isn't usually a consequence of a relaxed vs. strict work environment. It's a matter of the legal liabilities. I'm not talking about going to jail. Sexual harassment isn't considered a criminal matter so isn't not about someone going to jail.

Sexual harassment is a civil matter, though. And if the company, even if it's relaxed, doesn't have a very specific and strict sexual harassment policy, they open themselves up to liability. Companies are concerned with avoiding that risk which is why many of the bigger ones have policies against that kind of relationship. So that supervisors can't use their status to pursue personal matters with their employees...which is what Kevin did.

No. That's not what I'm implying at all. I know Patrick liked Kevin and was attracted to him. But he also knew that it was a bad idea on multiple levels and tried to avoid a scenario like the one he ended up in. I'm focused specifically on Kevin and his status as Patrick's boss and how he used that status to get Patrick alone. Tying the seduction so closely with work is my biggest issue. Had Patrick reciprocated at the wedding and they hooked up there, it'd still be iffy territory given the boyfriend and the boss aspect but it would have been in more of a neutral playing field.

I agree that we don't know that he has done this before. We don't know if he hasn't. We also don't know whether or not he and Jon have an open relationship. It's definitely not unheard of, especially amongst gay men.

I think the reason Kevin is getting more criticism on the boyfriend front is because he lives with his boyfriend. They've been together two years and the boyfriend just relocated to be with him. Patrick and Richie have only been together for a few weeks and only have been "official" for two weeks. In addition, there is the argument that their 'official' status was in doubt after their morning conversation. And indeed, it did turn out to be a Part I of their two part breakup. Had Richie said he still wanted to be with Patrick and Patrick remained silent about what he did with Kevin, I'd consider it a betrayal. At this point I don't, though.

That's how I felt in the beginning. It wasn't until the wedding episode and the final episode that it started to explore different territory outside of the 'two different relationships' angle. I don't know what the intention is, but they ended up presenting a pretty paint-by-the-numbers video I'd use in sexual harassment seminars about what is not okay.

a new hope

I don't mind the cheating (since it's fiction, I would mind it in real life ), I'm not a fan of their dynamic in general but it's totally a personal taste thing. I'm not sure if I like Patrick better with Kevin or Richie. Both relationships are majorly flawed.

Alexa

yes Tar, I agree. I think they both have their low points but also both have their positive points. Again, I feel like the writers want it to be a legitimate love triangle. (which is interseting because kevin and richie dont really even know each other).

In terms of the patrick/richie scene, i dont rememebr ANY of that, but again i only saw it once. At the time I dont remember it being obvious thats what was happening. And actually, patrick never said that he was a bottom virgin did he? i thought he just said he didnt like it that much.

I am from the US and i know a lot of friends/family that actually are in work relationships and its never been an issue. So I guess I just didnt think it was really that strict of a policy in most places but again, I dont really know much about what rules are set in office type situations. However, the fact that the show hasnt brought it up at all (though, maybe next season) makes me think its not really part of the issue. I mean Kevin himself said that calling himself Patricks boss was a bit formal and kinda shrugged it off. Maybe he was just playing it cool but considering hes the BOSS I dont really see how its a problem. LOL. And I dont see how Kevin used his status over Patrick. Other than saying he had work for him to do (which, again, patrick offered to come in and didnt leave when he easy could have :/) but we see that differently.

In episode 4 kevin apologizes to patrick for making him come in and patrick says that he offered. on the phone in the finale patrick says "no its okay i can come in" which makes it seem like kevin told him nevermind. so to me, its been consistent that patrick is the one thats offering to go into the office. and of course kevin is gonna use that, its common ground for them, its where they both work, its how kevin knows he'll be able to see patrick.

when i first saw that scnee i didnt get a skeevy vibe at all, i actually found it cute that kevin had lied because i thought, wow, he likes so much that he made up a lie to see him. not sure what that says about me but oh well.

to me, it doesnt matter if youve been with someone 2 years or 2 weeks, cheating is cheating and kevin and patrick BOTH cheated, so Patrick should be getting just as much hate for what he did. It doesnt matter that Richie broke up with him afterards. IN fact, Patrick should tell Richie what happened, and if he doesnt next season then i definitely wont be able to support richie/patrick at all.
i mean, what if richie had come to patrick and said he wanted to be with him and he was sorry about their fight? patrick probably would have said ok and still not told him about kevin.

I just dont think Kevin did anything wrong. I really dont. I dont think its "obvious" that he was harrassing Kevin, not at all. . People can believe what they want but I will never agree with that or think thats what the writers were trying to. It just wouldnt make sense to me, honestly, with the way theyve built up KP and the way they talk about Russell and the fact that hes back in season 2. I think if he was supposed to be the bad guy in any way the writers would make it more clear and the actors/writers would be backing rickie/patrick more, but they arent.

Lethally Floral

It's not the work relationship, it's the direct report relationship. Which is not to say it hasn't happened or worked in the past but it's typically frowned upon because it gets ugly all too often.

The supervisor/direct report policies usually are pretty strict but an employer can only go so far into investigating. If people have the affair away from work, which most smart people do, then the company may suspect but not have proof. That's why the two of them getting on in the office was so risky because it ups the chances they'd get caught.

But yeah, we aren't going to agree on what happened. Yes, he let Patrick "choose" to come to work but Patrick already established that he was willing to go all out for work. Telling him "there's a crisis....but oh nevermind" was manipulative because he knew as soon as he said 'work crisis' Patrick would come. Had he said "I need to see you because I can't stop thinking about you" in all likelihood, Patrick would not have come. It reminds me of the way he told Patrick he was going to kiss him at the wedding and when Patrick started to say it would have been weird or a bad idea, Kevin cut him off from saying that with a kiss.

Why would Patrick tell Richie about the sex? They sound kind of broken up. I don't know what the point would be. Just to hurt Richie?

The action was implied but obviously not shown since they aren't doing frontal. Patrick isn't a bottom virgin exactly. What he said was that he'd let other guys penetrate but then he would just tighten up and push it right back out again.

Oh I do and I don't. I have shipped cheaters before. Even boss/employee (although the work relationship had ended before the shows pulled the trigger). It's just the particulars of the way this went down.

Alexa

i just dont see kevin as the bad guy. i know hes done some things that people dont like and i can understand why, but i think hes human. thats why i like the show so much, because it depicts people and relationships realistically.
i feel like kevin really likes him and so he lied a few times to be near him. i dont think its a crime. and i certainly dont think its harassment.

theres no point in patrick telling richie about kevin NOW but if they continue to be friends and even hint at possibly getting back together then yes, patrick needs to tell him. how can you have a relationship with someone without honesty? richie/patrick are broken up now but they werent when he slept with kevin. :/

i dont remember that either. LOL. did he specifically say that?
to me it just seems like he doesnt like it very much, which again, i understand. but the fact he wanted to do it for kevin and not for richie says a lot to me.

everyones entitled to their opinion but sometimes i feel like people exaggerate the negative things in couples they dont ship just because they dont like them.

Lethally Floral

Pretty much. In the fifth episode, while they're at the planetarium, they're talking about it. Patrick says he didn't think he liked it very much and Richie asked why. He said "I can get it in but as soon as it's in, I'm like 'take it out, take it out, take it out, take it out.'"

Sometimes. But sometimes we also bring our own experiences to things and it colors how we appreciate something. For the record, I never called Kevin "the bad guy." Or "evil."

Alexa

Well saying someone is sexually harrassing someone paints them as the bad guy.

And i didnt mean you specifically.

Lethally Floral

I said he manipulated Patrick and ignored Patrick's attempts to keep his distance--both of which I think are wrong. But I don't think that makes him some kind of villain. I think he can be adorable, especially in Ep 4. I like Patrick but I think he's a classist. I like Dom but I think he was an entitled brat to Lynn when Lynn gave him excellent advice. I don't even hate Agustin--although I think he's the worst.

But I don't think I said Kevin was sexually harrassing Patrick. What I said was companies have policies against supervisor/employee hookups because they're afraid of sexual harrassment lawsuits. Let's say that Kevin has real feelings for Patrick, is completely in love with him and, other than being unable to break up with his boyfriend, his intentions are pure. Even if that were all true, their relationship is operating under the implicit, even if it's not explicit, fact that Patrick's livelihood rests in Kevin's hands.

But from the company's perspective, it's not just Patrick who could have a lawsuit. Let's say, in order to spend quality time with Patrick, Kevin starts giving him special projects or a promotion so they can work more together. What if Owen was actually more qualified for that position? If Owen finds out about the relationship, suddenly he'd have a sexual harassment case. A legit one.

And that's why companies care. And it's why it may not be an 'evil' move because their intentions aren't malicious, but it is one that is truly ill advised.

I know it may seem like I'm overanalyzing this but this show has been kind of careful in talking about the pitfalls of relationships at the work place through Dom's story (First when the bartender tells Dom that when he hooks up with busboys/other waiters, it gets weird and then they quit and later with Lynn's opinion that they shouldn't mix business with pleasure) that I don't think they'd be so careless with Kevin and Patrick if they weren't going to address it in some way.

Alexa

Im just not sure if its that kind of show. Kp being caught and getting in trouble just doesnt seem like SL that would happen here.

I dont think the writers really thought about it that much. But i guess well see what happens next!

london grammar

I watched all of the episodes this last week. I like Patrick/Richie WAY more than Patrick/Kevin. I think Patrick likes Richie way more than Kevin, too. I think he only thinks Kevin is cute(which he is). Also, I think Patrick wants Richie but with the career Kevin has.

Agustin is boring, annoying, whiny and bitter. Dom is okay, a little boring, but way better than than Agustin.

ETA: And I kind of think Kevin did wrong with lying to get Patrick to the office under false pretenses. And, most people, if they don't want to lose their job, will rush to work to fix whatever the problem is. And if your boss makes a move on you, IDK, it can just be tricky and messy.

Alexa

I think Patrick likes Richie more, but only because he knows Richie more intimately. And because Richie was an actual option for him.

There's no way that Patrick only thinks Kevin is "cute"... i dont buy that at all.
But it was pretty clear how much he liked Kevin too. He gets all nervous and awkward whenever Kevin shows up, he was hitting on him pretty hard and acting all giddy when they first met... and in episode 4 its very clear how much he cares when his face changes whenever Kevins boyfriend is mentioned. Or how he tries to look and act cool in Kevins presence.

Patrick had every opportunity to leave the office. Or to tell Kevin off. Or to report him, if he so chose to do, but he did none of those things. So i dont really feel all that bad for him. IMO its clear he wanted to be there and he wanted Kevin too.

Lethally Floral

I do agree. I doubt that will be the story. Or at least a big story arc. Although I do think there will be some drama not only related to Kevin's partnered status but work as well because I think I may disagree with this....

I just rewatched most of the series again. (With only four hours, it's easy to do.) And the show definitely did look to make a statement about having a relationship where you work. The most obvious messages were in Dom's story. In the first episode, he initially expressed interest about a waiter/busboy to the bartender, Hugo and Hugo told Dom not to do it because they sleep together, it gets weird and then the co-worker ends up quitting. That segued right into Dom & Lynn whose relationship was about establishing work/personal boundaries.

Heck, even Agustin's story had an element of what trouble awaits when you mix your work with your romantic life.

So I do think the writers have thought about this. Either that or they have a fetish for stories about mixing work and romance.

Alexa

Idk maybe they are trying to show simularities but im not sure its gonna mean anything?

I dont know if that makes sense but they try to show the characters going through similar things.

I guess well see next year if there are repercussions.

Alexa

season 2 promo... premieres jan 11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ott9VndhVEo

Simon Spier

Looks interesting!