brave princess

ITA with all of this. I liked what I saw in the final 2 episodes with regards to Bass b/c I feel like he was possibly set on a path to redemption. The things he said to Rachel when they were trapped in that bunker, I don't think that he likes who he has become and obviously there are things that he's done along the way that he regrets. The moment in the bunker with the two of them just felt like such an important moment. I would love to see some moments like that next season.

I just don't get it. It's such a fail that I really think they should let it go. When they had Nora telling Rachel how Miles would do anything for her I was just like "Really writers? Really?!" Nothing irritates me more than one love interest in a triangle talking about how the other two people should be together. I loved that Miles wouldn't leave her even though Nora kept insisting that he go to Rachel.

I'm with you. I would prefer to have a romance down the line (it would take awhile to get there b/c of their history) but I'll take whatever I can get with them. I would love to watch them working on the same side kind of like they did in the final 2 episodes once they got inside the Tower.

IloveJules!

That conversation between Rachel and Nora about Miles was outrageous. It enrages me when I think about it. So many things they could have talked about and they talk about Miles and how much Rachel and Miles love each other. It was good that Miles stayed with Nora because when he was fighting with Bass he said he had more important things to do aka saving Rachel and Charlie. He wasn't even thinking about Nora and she fell in the water with them too. He had no idea if she was alive. So it was very good that he chose to stay with Nora.



I loved how Rachel said to Grace they had to "stop the militia" instead of "stop/kill Bass".

Bass really doesn't like what he has become. And the first time we hear him basically confessing he hates what he's now is with Rachel. Their very first scene together when Rachel says she liked him a lot better when he was a womanizing drunk and he agrees with it. He's comfortable enough with Rachel to let her see his vulnerable side. And that's because of their past friendship. There was a time when they were close enough (as friends) to trust each other and to feel comfortable with each other. And I think that's how Bass still sees her. As a friend. Same with Rachel even though she hates what he is now. I think the bunker scene reflects it perfectly.

What I like the most about Bass being comfortable with letting Rachel see his vulnerable side is that Bass is not desperate or obsessive when he's talking to her. With Miles he behaves like a puppy. A little brother desperate to please the older brother. And Miles treats him like someone inferior. With Rachel is different. After everything he had done with her and she hates him, but he's normal with her. Bass sees her as a friend and is not desperate or obsessive. Also Rachel, despite hating him and wanting him to die, she still treats him equally with her. I see equality and balance between them. Obviously when Rachel was a prisoner there were a few moments of desperation and inferiority, but that's because of the circumstances and not how their relationship is when they're out of this captor/prisoner dynamic.

Yes, I think Bass is on a path to redemption. I think he will find his son and the boy will have a positive effect on him. And that's great. But I'm not sure about Rachel. I see Rachel as flawed and messed up as Bass. They have a very similar emotionally confused unstable mind. She's done some questionable things that had terrible consequences, so I wonder if she will ever be on a path to redemption too. It doesn't seem as clear as Bass.

Because they're so similar they can understand each other and relate to each other when it seems no one else understands them. So it would be great if they could find redemption through each other.

After what happened with Danny, I thought a romance between Rachel and Bass would be impossible. The heart to heart conversation in the bunker changed my mind. But there is Miles. Apparently, Rachel loves him. So that's almost impossible.

However, now that Nora is dead and Bass is out of the militia, I won't be surprised if there is a love triangle involving Miles, Rachel and Bass. I never forgot something Liz said at the WonderCon about Rachel. She said Rachel has slept with almost everybody. I don't know the context of her words, why she said it and if that's exactly what she said. I didn't watch the panel. It was basically a tweet of what was being said in the panel. But it makes you wonder if it's just about Ben and Miles or if it is about Bass too even though all we know is that they were just friends. When Rachel said "you have always made excuses". For a brief moment I thought it was about them and not really about Danny or Rachel's time as a prisoner of the militia.

I'd love to see Rachel and Bass working together too. Maybe now that Bass is out of the militia and we have this President that doesn't seem to have good intentions (what are you gonna think about a president that sends missiles to two cities and hides in Cuba for 15 years while "his" people are suffering). Maybe it will bring them to the same side.

Heiots

This ship. Yes. Get me on board.

Hi, IloveJules.

IloveJules!

Hello Grace!!!

It's a nice surprise to see you here.

Yeah, I had to go with the reason I decided to become a member of Fan Forum. My love for Juliet. Because IIRC both Cristiane and Cris were already in use. That's the first thing that came to my mind. So yeah, IloveJules!

Rachel and Bass. Really like when they're together. But that's a sinking ship. Maybe it will set sail. In the form of a friendship. That would be great.

I'm hoping Rachel will be obliged to work together with Bass. If it happens, it's going to be fun to watch. And more heart to heart talks would be perfection.

This message will become an excuse to post gifs in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...





Rachel and Sebastian - 1x19 "Revolution"

Heiots

This ship ought to be sailing with cannons going. How can my ship sink again before it has even started! Why are all my ships like that. I must be doing something wrong. (I mean, logically, I guess it's not all that realistic to want to love the guy who has committed so many crimes, but all that chemistry must qualify as a reason.)

And hi, Cris! I've missed you. (I've said it on JBF but I'll say it again. )

Like I told you, I have a thing for sad, broken characters. Bass does it for me. He has been a really interesting character to watch throughout the season. I've felt for him. Rachel...it's Elizabeth Mitchell, so I don't need to have a reason. i'll always be rooting for her.

It was a surprise to me that they're still on this level of communication despite of all that has gone on the last couple of years. I mean, if you've held me captive from my family for so long, indirectly killed my husband and son, the relationship I would have with my captor would probably not be like what Rachel has currently with Bass. (Sometimes she just seems so empathetic. Other times she just wants to kill him. It makes me a little ) And the fact that Bass has been so patient and lenient with Rachel seems highly unusual as well. Maybe "We used to be friends" is more powerful than I thought and creates soft spots in enemies. All I know is that I'm invested in this ship, and it's got potential. I hate to see it already crashing on the rocks. I kind of want to see these two lost souls help each other out.

Those gifs are much appreciated, Cris. Thought you should know that.

IloveJules!

Preach it, Grace. Preach it!

I've always wondered how intimate and how strong their friendship was in the past because Bass feels way too comfortable around Rachel. It doesn't matter the situation. And he kind of likes to share his feelings with Rachel. He lets her see his vulnerable side. Rachel brings back the old Bass inside of him. And sometimes Rachel gets very personal with him. Like when she got very close to Bass when they're talking in the window. Of course she was playing games with him the same way he does with her. But that's way too close. And especially inside the bunker when they're talking about Danny's death and she is mad at him for killing her son. She's mad because it was him. And that's why she is basically demanding him to say something about it. At least that's how I see it. It's interesting how she forgets about killing Bass and it becomes just about defeating the militia. I feel like Rachel sees a lot of Bass on her (both have done terrible things) and that's why she wanted to die with him too instead of just kill him.

Just to compare... Rachel wouldn't behave this way with Tom.

So I'd really like to see more about their friendship before the blackout.

And also more of the 4 years of Rachel locked inside the militia with Bass. Rachel was kind of replacing Miles, in a way. And for Rachel too, Bass was the closest thing to a family.

Bass is usually very patient with Rachel in a weird way. Because he usually gets mad with everyone else that provoke/challenge him (including Emma when he said she shouldn't talk to him like that). I can't explain exactly why really. There are moments when I feel he's completely attracted to Rachel because of the way he looks at her. And he wants her approval/love. He's not like that with other women. He's a man looking for love, any kind of love, no doubt.

I can see them becoming friends. They're so much alike.

Bass is my favorite too. There is just something so tragic about him. He's a lost soul, really. Rachel is another broken burdened soul trying to find the light, literally. They could help each other out, definitely.

It's frustrating, isn't it? They had all those moments and the chemistry. But I have no idea where they're going to take this relationship. They are great to watch together. So it should go somewhere. We should have more moments between them.

I have a very clear idea of what's going to happen between Rachel and Miles though. When you have the writers comparing them to Harry and Sally.

Ah the gifs! The sixth! That episode was perfection! I would be very happy if we get another episode like that for Rachel and Bass. The chances of it happening are very slim, but I can dream.

Heiots

Haha. I think you've earned the title of preacher around here, Cris. I love to hear ya preach.

Everything you said about Bass and Rachel's relationship, I yes it. That's not the usual relationship between a captor and captive...unless we're talking Stockholm Syndrome here. You brought up a good point about wondering how their friendship was like in the past, because Bass seems to be entirely too comfortable baring his heart to her. Like you, it makes me think they used to be really close or something happened between them, which at the moment, I doubt so. If Rachel had been with Miles, Ben, and Bass...meh. And Rachel sorta lets him off too easy. She tries to kill him, but doesn't really try try, if you know what I mean. A nice half-hearted attempt. In the end, she always seems to give in to him, even excluding the times it was by force.

Yes. What I see in Bass, I'm starting to see in Rachel. Thing is, Bass knows exactly what he's done, how much blood is on his hands. He might be on his path to redemption just by realizing that. Rachel, on the other hand, is just starting to go down that path. I'm not sure she knows just how much she's turning out to be like Bass.

You and me both.

I see that too. He has that special something just for her. It could be that she's related to Miles and he looks up to him as an elder brother. Like you said, after Miles left, she's the closest thing he had to a family.
I don't know. I just don't like them together. I don't know why because Miles is a good-looking guy and everything. He cares for her and all. I just...I don't even know why I prefer Bass to Miles. Bass just seems more of a complex guy, and maybe that attracts me. He's a more interesting character to delve into, and of course, it doesn't hurt that he has that chemistry with Liz.

I guess it's more plausible for them to be friends than lovers. (But also, how plausible is it to be in love with your brother-in-law...)

And the sixth gif is my favourite too!

IloveJules!

Oh sweet Grace. That's because everyone else that ships them went away since the show chose to follow another direction, so it's just me here, mostly. And you now.

It's interesting that you mentioned Stockholm Syndrome because Liz said that she read about it to play the scenes with Bass while Rachel was his prisoner. And Liz specifically mentioned the women who fall in love with their captors. I don't think Rachel is in love with Bass, obviously. But sometimes I can see an attraction from Rachel. When they get really close to each other. It could be just mind games anyway. There were some seduction games going on between them when Rachel was his special prisoner.

Obviously Rachel said she couldn't sleep very well over there, she didn't feel comfortable with Bass putting pressure on her on a daily basis. I think Bass visited Rachel everyday to try to get information. But maybe being 4 years together, basically just seeing Bass, it brought an attraction to Bass. Liz also said that Bass was kind of Rachel's savior in a twisted way because he's the only person that she could talk to during 4 years.

I also see some kind of Stockholm Sydrome in reverse, if there is such a thing. With Bass being attracted to Rachel and wanting her approval and appreciation. I mean, he brings Danny back so Rachel will finally tell what she knows, but also to make Rachel happy. When he says "you could be with your boy again, you can be happy again". That's his sweet psycho twisted way to try to please her.

There are certain moments between Rachel and Bass when you wonder if they used to be more than just friends. I don't think so. But Liz once said that Rachel has slept with almost everybody. So who knows? I actually wouldn't like it. Because she was already involved with Ben and Miles in the past. That's their story. If something ever happens between Rachel and Bass, it's better if it is in the future and for the first time, if we see it little by little.

I know what you mean. She wants to kill him, but she doesn't really want. If Rachel really wanted to kill Bass, she would have done it. She easily killed her colleague Brad, Strausser and she would kill Tom too. She just didn't do it because of Charlie. To kill Bass she could have just thrown the grenade, but she didn't. She could have used the gun Miles gave to her, but she didn't. Inside the bunker, she could have used the coil gun to kill him, but she didn't do it. So she wants him to die, but she can't achieve it herself, I guess. It would be much easier if someone else did it for her. I think this is hard for her because of their past friendship. I think it shows how their friendship seems to have been deeper than what we know. Liz said Rachel still sees Bass as a friend, even though they're enemies now and she hates him.

Of course I'm trying to think from Rachel's POV. Obviously she didn't kill Tom or Bass because the writers didn't want them to die. And Revolution isn't a very well written story, so I'm probably thinking way too much about it and there are things that I care about, but the writers probably don't give a damn.

I think Rachel knows how much blood she has on her hands. She said it to Ben. I think her guilty is what motivated her to leave her family and try to do something right. It's interesting she's willing to die with Bass. As if she thinks she deserves it as much as him because of the things she did. It could be just Rachel wanting to avenge Danny's death so much, even if it means she has to die to do it. But since we know Rachel's story, I think it's more than that. It's more complicated than that.

And that conversation with Bass inside the bunker. The whole thing, what he says about suicide, guilty and his son. I think it makes Rachel realize she's just like him. At least she can identify with everything he's saying. It's not enough to change her way of doing things. She's still obsessed with revenge and turning the power back on. Maybe what's going to change her is whatever happens with those missiles. If they really hit Atlanta and Philadelphia, I can see Rachel being completely affected by it to the point of her realizing all her mistakes and it may change her drastically.

It could be. Bass tends to be attracted to everything related to Miles. But David said he played Bass as wanting family love from Rachel. The same way he wants from Miles. So he wants that from the rest of his family too. I've noticed that he tried to impress Charlie and Danny too. So maybe that's it. But I like to think it is also related to their past friendship.



I don't like Miles. I can't sympathize with him. I don't understand why he became so dark in the past. I don't like the way he treats Bass. I don't like his arrogance. And of all the main characters, he's the most hypocrite. I don't understand why he's supposed to be seen as a better person than Bass. Consequently, I don't like Miles and Rachel together. I just want him to stay away from her.

But I also think they don't have chemistry. And I think they're being forced down our throats. When you have other characters (Tom and Nora) telling us that they love each other, they're definitely being forced down our throats. And I don't like the context of their relationship. Miles is the man that wanted to capture his own brother and the husband of the woman he loves. He's the man that physically tortured the woman he loves and the one who decided to keep her as a prisoner. And he almost punched the woman he loves just because she provoked him. And I also think this relationship is mostly about Miles and Charlie. It rarely is about Rachel.

He's the brother in law and the relationship started as an affair, which isn't exactly the nicest thing, but I don't have a problem with that, really. Now I have a huge problem with the fact that Miles wanted to punch Rachel.

Bass did lots of terrible things with Rachel, but he doesn't love her. Also he's clearly unstable and paranoid. And the most important thing, he never tried to punch her. I often say this because it's a very important detail. The only time Bass grabbed her neck was because she tried to stab him with a pen.

I think that sixth gif is good to compare the way dark Miles and dark Bass treat Rachel. What's happening is that Rachel is trying to kill/hurt Bass with a pair of scissors (Rachel and her weapons ) and the only thing he does to defend himself is to be over Rachel on the table and grab her hands. Then he sweetly says for Rachel to stop for a second. I don't like to imagine what dark Miles would do.


This post is very long. Congratulations to you Grace, if you read all of it.

Heiots

I read this the day you posted this, Cris, the entire post, but I had to prepare myself for the replying. I have absolutely no idea how you manage to do these huge posts all at once! I usually need time to digest and process all that you say before I can even begin to start organizing my thoughts for a reply! I love reading and writing, but the thinking process is undesirably slow.

Did they really go? Nothing is impossible. Juliet was a character destined for tragedy and we still had some amazing moments. This Rass/Rachess/Bachel/Bassel (what's this ship's name?) couple can stand a chance. Like I mentioned, Amby from JBF ships them too. I bet there are supporters. Perhaps they just prefer lurking.

No, I don't think they are in love. Yet. I am hopeful, or perhaps, a little delusional, but I'd settle for a mutual friendship between them. I really don't care if Rachel ends up alone. There's no crime in not having a love interest. Unfortunately, TPTB has currently and very evidently assigned one to her. If anything, I feel like Bass has a greater liking for her than she does for him. It seems like he needs her more than she needs him. Which, sidetracking a little, do you think Bass would really have killed her even though Dr. Jaffe already promised to help the militia? Because it would make me think twice if he really meant to do away with her.

Anyway, back to the original point, there's definitely something there. I highly believe on Rachel's side, it is mostly her trying to play on Bass's emotions to manipulate him. I bet sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. We don't see all four years onscreen. I'm pretty sure it has done some work on him, otherwise, he wouldn't have opened up to her like he did in the bunker. He's also not above manipulation, as is apparent from him using her family against her. What a game. Very, very intense.

The outcome...from Rachel's point of view, she does want to kill him for hurting her family, but she can't quite bring herself to do it because of that bond that apparently has a stronger impact on her than she'll probably admit to herself. Plus you did mention that she can see the similarities between them, so she can empathize pretty well with him. This connection is not love, but it's definitely something worth expanding on. Bass, meanwhile, is also probably more attracted to Rachel than he would want to admit to himself. You said it somewhere, I think in Monroe's thread, that during those 4 years, she kind of took the place of Miles. In some sense, perhaps she became his object of obsession, not quite like Miles was, but she was a substitute. So in that way, he is attracted to her.

ETA: I went back a page or two and read the interview that Alex posted. It really is very interesting. I've never thought about it this way, how your captor can come across as your saviour. It does kind of have that tinge of Stockholm Syndrome if Bass really is the only person she could talk to during those 4 years. I mean, besides getting interrogated, of course. 4 years is a long time. Plus (being shallow here) he's not hard on the eyes, and he can be really nice if he wishes to be. I mean, if I were Rachel, I'd be wondering why this guy is treating me nicer than the guy I slept with.

Btw, do we happen to have a picture of the room Rachel was kept in before Bass upgraded her accommodations? That, and do we know how and where she was interrogated?

I remember that scene, and I was impressed despite knowing it's just outright manipulation. (Or is it more than that? ) I do think there's a little part of him, even though his main motive is to get her to do what he wants, that does want to please her, like you said. There is this sincerity that I thought he had in that scene. The look in his eyes... (or maybe I'm just David-admiring. )

I would not like it if Rachel and Bass had slept together in the past. I would throw my television out the window if they show that. I'm sorry, but I'm already mad at the fact that she's already done it with the brother-in-law. I've no interest in her being another Kate. It's not a quality I like to see in main female leads, to be honest, but oh well. Like you, I'd rather see them do some character growth. At the moment, with the current spoilers about Bass and the position he's in, it might take a while, but things can't go much worse from where each of these characters are now. Wherever there are valleys, there are mountains.

With regards to the grenade incident, Bass explained it in the bunker about how people wish to off themselves and at the last minute realizes they don't really want to. I think that was part of it. Even Rachel said herself that she didn't really want to die. She wanted to see her daughter again. We would never know for sure if she was telling the whole truth, if that was the only reason for not throwing it, but I do believe that was part of it. However, I think the other part is just like what you said. It wasn't just that time with the grenade. She had many other opportunities to kill Bass (sans the fact that doing away with him would totally end his storyline, which would suck) but didn't. It's pretty clear that some part of her just can't do it. It's not that she's incapable of killing or lacking skills as seen from your examples of Dr. Jaffe and Strausser. For some unknown reason that we're speculating about, she just can't.

*cough*dejavuJulietBurkeRachelCarlsonBenLinus*cough*

I do think it's a combination of both. Hey, kill two birds with one stone. But apparently, that guilt and vengeance still has this obstacle in their path. It's called attraction to Bass.

Joking, of course.

Maybe.

She's obsessed with revenge. He's obsessed with Miles. (I would rather have them obsessed with each other. ) They're both feeling an incredible amount of guilt and don't know how to make things right. You're right. They are rather in the same place. I never quite realized how similar their emotions are.

I just want to hug this man. He's in need of so much love. How can such a complex person be so hard to love? So misunderstood, so broken, so cold-hearted, so vulnerable, so brash, and yet, so gentle. He feels so much, but he hides it all. I find him a whole lot more intriguing as compared to Miles. It's strange because I usually go for the hero as opposed to the anti-hero. I'm not sure why it's different this time round. I think it's because I don't view Bass as a bad guy at all. I feel like he made bad decisions, but so did everyone else. I'm not too clear on this, but I think Miles said he became power-hungry and started doing extreme things that he couldn't accept. (Re-reading this, I went a little "oh puh-luz" on this. I'm wondering if Miles ever talked to Bass about going overboard? Bass apparently had no idea why Miles drew that gun on him, so it seems communication was broken for some time.) I don't think Bass intentionally wanted to be the "bad guy". Usually these things happen because of subtle choices that you make everyday and you don't even realize that you're changing to be someone else. The thing is, he truly believed he wanted to do it all for Miles. When Miles turned his back on him, he really didn't understand why. I would empathize with Miles a little more if the producers showed us him trying to talk Bass out of the things he was doing. (Did they show that? My memory fails me. I'm assuming no at this point of time.) I think Bass, with his obsession with the guy, would actually listen to him. I'm assuming he didn't and just one day decided he had to kill his best friend instead of talking it over with him. I know Bass's motivation stems from Miles, which in itself, trying to please someone, is not wrong. He just went about it the wrong way. Meanwhile, I don't know what Miles's actions are motivated by. Maybe he's just trying to figure it out too.

Of course, now thinking about it, Miles is a deeply disturbing and probably also, incredibly complex, guy. Still, not nearly as attractive to me. I'm usually pretty easy-going with a lot of characters unless they do something incredibly stupid or harmful to my favourite characters. I guess I have to dig deeper to figure out the source of my aversion to Miles.

Biiiingo. I think I found it.

You made a really good comparison of Bass and Miles (now that Juliet vs Rachel is over, you get to do a Bass/Miles one now! ) I don't know if I've said this, but I'm certainly impressed by how patient and indulging Bass is to Rachel, considering the number of times she has tried to kill him. It's true. We've yet to see him hurt her out of anger. Even in the bunker, his anger was directed to the inanimate objects, not to her. That's why I highly think he doesn't want to kill her at all or even harm her.

Rachel and her weapons. This reminds me of the interview. I think you posted the gifs of that. It was amusing.

I did, and I hope you'll manage to read all of mine.

IloveJules!

This was a great huge post, Grace. Really loved reading all of it.


It's the same with me. I need some time to think about what I'm going to write. Those huge posts are often written in parts. A little bit in one day, another little bit in another day. It depends on how much free time I have.


It's Bachel. I don't think the writers want to go for a romance between them. It's Rachel and Miles for that. But just like you, I'd be happy with a friendship and maybe a storyline involving the son. I'd be happy if they have more moments together and just the two of them. I just love watching them together.


And maybe Rachel still sees herself as a married woman. I'm not sure if the fact she still wears her wedding ring is meaningful. We didn't see much of what she's feeling about Ben and his death.


Yes, I don't think Bass hates Rachel. Of course Rachel hates him and she has the right to feel all that anger towards him because of everything he did. And he really needed Rachel after Miles abandoned him. She was filling that emotional void. Not only she was key to his plans, but also she was someone who knew the old Bass so he could be "himself" with her. As I said before, he could be vulnerable with her and that's something he couldn't be with his militiamen. And Bass is someone looking for understanding, acceptance and love, so I'm sure he wanted it from her. Rachel has her very own family so she didn't need him and she just wanted to get away from the militia. However while she was a prisoner, even though she didn't feel comfortable with the pressure for information or even his manipulation, there's a part of her that probably needed to see him so she would talk with someone.

But now that the prisoner/captor dynamic is over, I don't feel it is about them needing each other. What I loved the most about everything that happened inside the bunker and then later when they teamed up to save Charlie is that they can naturally help each other. Because they're too similar they can read each other. When Rachel forces Bass to reflect about the things he has done, she is responsible for making him show regret and she's helping him by doing that. When Bass shares with Rachel his feelings about suicide that came from his very own experience, he's making her realize she doesn't really want to die and he's helping her by doing that. And especially when Bass promises Rachel he will save Charlie. She trusts him and that's when Bass does something redeemable for the first time. Rachel allowed him to do that and she's helping him enormously. Because Bass saved Charlie, Rachel lets him go and that's something huge too because Rachel is letting him live. When he kept his promise, Bass made Rachel let go of one of her obsessions (kill him) and he's helping her one more time too. That was really great to see.


This is a great question. I must say I think I never wondered about it before because when Rachel stabs Dr. Jaffe and says "now you need me". This is simply too shocking and awesome that I guess I never stopped to think if Bass would actually kill her (and Danny) if she hadn't done it.

That's hard to say, but I feel he wouldn't kill her the same way he can't kill Miles. I think he freaked out and got so mad (and usually he's not like that with Rachel) because it was her of all the people that was building a bomb to kill him and they had a deal and he felt she betrayed him and there's a part of him that wanted to trust her. I genuinely think he wouldn't have the courage to kill Rachel and Danny. He made Strausser point a gun at Charlie and Danny so Rachel would choose which one Strausser would kill if Rachel didn't cooperate and then when Rachel says she will help him Bass says a good hostage works every time. That's important because it shows he never had the intention to kill Charlie or Danny. Bass was sure Rachel wouldn't let them die and Rachel would end up helping him.

Now after Rachel gets out of the militia and especially after Miles refused to go back and said Bass meant nothing to him, Bass started to spiral into full rage and paranoia mode and he didn't care about anyone, just revenge and power. Just take a look at what he did with Emma. So I guess if Rachel (or even Miles) died, he wouldn't care. He would react like he reacted to Jeremy's death and he would just get crazier. But I believe Bass himself wouldn't have the courage to kill Rachel at all. The same with the rest of her family (Charlie, Danny and Ben).


I don't think so. We never got to see the place Rachel was kept as a prisoner when Miles was part of the militia. He tied her to a chair to torture her inside one of those militia cabins. But it happened right after Rachel gave herself up to the militia. So it's hard to say if that's where she was being kept.

With Bass she was interrogated inside her own room. I believe she never left that room while she was his prisoner. And she was tortured once by Strausser. I think that was the only time Bass decided to torture her. It was when he lost his patience with her. At least it looked like Strausser was torturing her for the first time because he was apologizing for what he was doing. He wouldn't do it if it was the gazillionth time he was torturing her. Or would he?


Yes, I totally agree. He knew exactly what she was feeling.

And everything you said about Bass. No, Miles never tried to talk with Bass. At least it was never showed, so it seems he just realized Bass was getting out of control and he decided to get rid of his best friend.

I usually like all the characters too. On Lost and Game of Thrones and V. But with Miles I just can't. I tried. But I can't. Sometimes when he's with Charlie and Nora, he's likable.


This. So much. But there is something important we didn't see yet. Apparently Bass faked Rachel's death. Miles said he thought she was dead and that's why he left her with Bass. I'm very curious to know why and how it happened.


Like I said, sometimes I feel she seems a bit attracted to Bass, but no, she's probably playing games with him. It's friendship. Their past friendship. She entered the tent to show him it was her (his former friend Rachel) who wanted to kill him and maybe because she feels she deserves to die as much as Bass too, but I believe there's a part of her that is mad because it was him that killed Danny. Once she said "we used to be friends, if that means anything to you". I guess it means something to her. If it was Tom, she would have killed him as easily as she killed Strausser, IMHO.




It's manipulation, but I also feel he really means it. Because family means everything to Bass, so I feel he really thinks Rachel can be happy again now that her son is near her. He understands what she's feeling. And yes, there's a part of him that wants her appreciation and wants her. I mean, if she allowed him, I'm sure he would go for her. When Rachel says "you have me". He knows she's playing with him, but the look on his face is like he wishes it was true. And when she gets closer to him it's almost like she is going to kiss him. That's the moment he gets lost on her. It's like he's hoping she actually kisses him and she doesn't and calls him a "son of a bitch" and he gets mad and leaves the room.

I watched this window scene way too many times.

Just love the look on his face here. The way he looks at her.

Heiots

It's true though. I get a little sad thinking they don't stand a chance because it really does seem impossible, the more I think about it. I guess there are some obstacles love just can't overcome. Perhaps like you, all I want is more moments shared between them. That chemistry is too good to waste. (It's just I don't know why Miles get to get away with all he did, and Bass doesn't get that pass. Oh right, he did cause the deaths of two of her family members...but thinking about it, Miles did have a hand in their deaths too. I shall stop going in circles now. I have to stop making excuses for Bass. )

Since we are on the topic of redemption (I forget which thread: we have too many discussions ), I've been pondering how the writers will redeem Bass. Personally, I think he might not make it to the end, assuming this show carries on to the end, which i hope it will. I love Bass, and I hate to admit that I feel this way, but it seems fitting for it to happen that way. I'd love it if it was for Rachel. Bass comes across as someone who would give his life up for someone he cares about, and after all we've talked about, I think we can agree that Bass does care for her, though we do not quite know in which sort of way.

I did think Ben's death was rather glossed over. We didn't see much of a grieving time from Rachel...only that she's attracted to Miles.

And yes to everything you said about Bass and Rachel. I do think he is more attracted to her than she is to him. Like you said, Rachel had her own family. Bass didn't. He needed family. I'm really glad she understands him better now after the bunker scene, that he's not that cold-hearted. It was good for her (and me )to see that rawness.

Also, regarding the Dr. Jaffe incident, I also thought he would not be able to carry out what he said. I feel like it was an empty threat made out of anger, but he wouldn't be able to carry it out. Now after what you said about how he reacted after Jeremy's death (that was painful - gah!), and after what David Lyons said in the interview, I would be expecting really crazy Bass, which I'm kinda looking forward to. For someone who has always needed a member of his "family" around, and he's now alone, he's gonna be pushed to the limits. I'm hoping he can only go up from there.

...thinking about it, I think every character is in a bad place right now. This world is looking rather dark (no pun intended).

And thanks for the answer to where Rachel was kept, Cris! I remember the scene of her tied to a chair in a tent when Miles was attempting to interrogate her, but I'm pretty sure that's not where she was kept for those 4 years. I did a little searching and found this. I think it'd be close to where she was kept those years.



Pretty sure it was the first time. At least, that's how it came across to me.

This. This is bugging me. It just doesn't make sense. I don't know how they're gonna pull it off, but it better be good. I posted something somewhere related to this in another thread. I'll find it and put it in here. (ETA: It's in the Rachel Matheson thread.) All I can say is, it better be a good reason for Bass faking Rachel's death besides he was jealous that Miles probably cared more for Rachel than Bass. That just...is taking that bromance too far.



No, really, I was joking about that romance thing. I think Rachel is far from loving him. She's on her way to perhaps letting go of her hatred towards him and everything he's done to her, intentional and unintentional deeds. She knows now that he didn't mean to hurt her. Like he said, he didn't know how everything got so out of control. (That scene - I give props to David Lyons for his acting.) I can't emphasis how happy I am because they're finally honest with each other. No mind games, nothing.

I'm not hoping for a full-blown romance. I can see a one-sided longing from Bass perhaps. But you don't steal your best friend's girl...again. What I can see though is him sacrificing his life for the family, like what I said above. Bass is a character that I think was meant for tragedy from the start, just like Juliet was. I'll be surprised if he finds a happy ending.

That said, do you think Bass knows about the affair between Miles and Rachel?

So much love for this analysis of the scene. I grinned reading it all the way through. He really wants to believe that he has her. Unfortunately, he doesn't really have anybody. =(

I love that window scene, Cris. So many thanks for that gif.

Oh, and I did a little fic called Fused Souls for my own indulgence - http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9620034/1/Fused-Souls

IloveJules!

It is very frustrating and heartbreaking. It makes me really sad, actually. Because I love Rachel and Bass together. But of course I realize he was indirectly responsible for Ben's death and Danny's death even though Bass didn't want any of this to happen and he regrets it. So it makes a romance almost impossible to happen because of the things he did with her family.

But a friendship is not impossible. People have the option to forgive and I believe Rachel can do it with Bass. Especially if he shows he can be forgiven. He will have to prove he deserves her forgiveness. And like I said in the EM board, Rachel also has a lot do with the deaths of Ben and Danny.

If I stop to think too much about it and I do, I actually think things are better the way they're for Rachel and Bass because with Rachel and Miles it's just too easy, IMHO. He did horrible things with her too. But Rachel is not that mad with Miles. Rachel is okay with him because she loves him and he's family and maybe the father of her daughter.

I wouldn't like things to be that easy between Rachel and Bass. At all. That's what makes their relationship so fascinating to watch, IMHO. I'd like to keep seeing Rachel and Bass getting mad at each other, questioning each other, making each other reflect about the horrible things both have done. And ultimately I'd like to see them helping each other.

I just would like to see it on the screen. I wish the writers cared about this relationship as much as we do. I'd like to see Rachel and Bass going from enemies to friends. It doesn't need to be romantic at all. But it would be great if we could see more of their relationship. And just about them. Not related to Miles at all. More episodes like Children of Men would be wonderful.


You're not making excuses for Bass, you're stating the facts. Rachel hates Bass because she blames him for Danny's death, Ben's death. She also blamed Tom for killing Ben and kidnapping Danny. And it all started because of Miles. He was the one after Ben in the first place. He was the one obsessed with this idea. And Rachel kind of ignores it. But I'm being too repetitive on this subject. It's getting tiring and annoying.


Like I said in the Bass thread, I also think Bass will have a tragic ending. And if that's really the route the writers want to go for this character, if he is going to sacrifice his life for someone, it only makes sense if it is for his son or Rachel (or Charlie too).


And that's a problem. They need to show more of her feelings about Ben's death and more of their relationship (Rachel/Ben). And even if they weren't that close anymore, she is still wearing her wedding ring after all those years away from him. She still loves him, I guess. Not the same way she loves Miles. But it seems like Ben's always going to be between them.


That picture is from the prison Bass sent her after she killed Jaffe. But I agree, I have the feeling she only became a special prisoner with Bass. He said they (Rachel and Bass) had a deal, maybe having better acommodations was part of their deal.


See, that's why I think Bass sent Strausser to torture her only once. I think that was the first and only time Bass decided to use torture to get information from Rachel because he lost his patience with her. Even the naive look on Rachel's face tells us that she didn't know what exactly Bass was going to do when Strausser came in. Then she sees his torture tools and that's when she knows it and she gets tough. Rachel was tortured more than once, but I feel that with Bass that was the only time he decided to do it with her. Bass was more patient with Rachel. We would have to see more of her time as a prisoner to know it for sure, but that's my impression.


I totally agree.


Well, Rachel doesn't belong to Miles. They aren't in a relationship. Officially. But they love each other, so yes, maybe it's better if Bass stays away from it. Maybe.


That's another great question. I have no idea. In the very first scene between Rachel and Bass we have Rachel telling him she liked Bass much better when he was a womanizing drunk and Bass tells her everyone did, including Miles. The look on Rachel's face is priceless. It's the "please don't mention this name ever again because I don't want to remember that son of a bitch exists. I still can't believe he just ran away and left me behind" look. Bass seemed to be provoking her by mentioning Miles. So maybe he knows. If he doesn't know, maybe he suspects it. It's not very hard to wonder about it. They (Rachel and Miles, especially Miles) don't hide it very well.

Bass spent 3 or 4 years with Miles and Rachel as their prisoner. There was probably a moment when Miles reconciles with Rachel otherwise she wouldn't be so mad at him leaving her behind, so maybe Bass found out about their affair during this time.


You're welcome.

That window scene is amazing. That's the scene I told myself that I shouldn't and I wouldn't ship them. I was trying my best to not ship them. As you can see, I couldn't resist.

By the way, I didn't credit the original maker of the gif posted above because the blog doesn't exist anymore. But I got it from the animations thread in this board.


I just read it today, Grace. I wanted to have a calm and completely free time to read it. And it's great! You're a wonderful writer. Like someone else said in one of the reviews, you definitely have a gift!

I really love that it is from Rachel's POV as a prisoner. And that you decided to focus on the 4 years she spent only with Bass and as if they were meeting for the first time since the blackout. Oh and comparing their dynamic to the game of tag was perfect.

You should definitely continue to write this.

Heiots

So, there was a little Q&A session on Twitter with Eric Kripke, and I submitted a question. (There were thirteen questions he answered. I posted them on the EM section, but a lot of the answers are vague. That's the problem with twitter and its character limit.)

How would you describe the relationship between Bass & Rachel, & will we get to see them interact in S2?



I can't comprehend which is worse, because the more I think about it, the more I think that being family and doing all those bad things is a worse betrayal than not being family and committing those things. But I sort of understand. If I were Rachel, it'd be easier to forgive Miles because he's family, and to hate Bass because he's unrelated. Blood is thicker than water, right? (That quote is very subjective. Apparently, not for Miles and Ben.)

However, from an outsider's standpoint, I think Bass's deeds fare better than what Miles has done. Neither are angels. We agree that both are responsible for the deaths of Ben and Danny, but what does it take for a person to pursue his own brother, to want to capture him, and torture him for information? Nothing much, apparently. All I learn from that is family seems to mean more to Bass than it ever did to Miles, even though Bass's 'family' is unrelated by blood. I do think Miles regretted it, and he's changed, but it took him about 4 years, didn't it? And Rachel found it within her to forgive him. We're not even touching on the betrayal of his brother when it comes to Rachel. I understand that it takes two hands to clap, so I'm not absolving Rachel of anything yet. What they did during the marriage was a moment of weakness, I get it, but what happened after Ben's death bothers me a lot more. A nice grieving period, like you suggested, would be sufficient to make the situation better. Like I said, the writers have a lot to do with Miles/Rachel to redeem them. It's going to take a while with a dead Ben always going to be between them.

Yeah, I guess it's meant to be unfair. Humans are swayed by emotions and less by logic. I hope you read the little spoiler up there. It's not a real spoiler, but I tagged it just in case. You said you wouldn't like things to be that easy between Bass and Rachel, and I think you'll get your wish. I believe the writers and the team are realizing that they do have something there with Lyons and Mitchell. As long as they think there're fans out there who want to see their scenes, we're safe.

I feel the same way, and it's like I've been saying the same thing over and over, but I feel strongly about it. I don't know if you've watched the first episode, but Gene, Rachel's dad, said some things that I've been hoping someone would say on the show. He's bringing out the guilt that we know Miles must feel about Ben, and that's nice because for me, it shades Miles with a little more colour. I mean, the road is still predictable for the hero, but to know that Miles isn't exactly pursuing Rachel with a clear conscience after the death of his brother works better for me. To realize that he isn't exactly great for Rachel at the moment, that he needs to struggle with the guilt of betraying his brother and then indirectly killing him is the first step to making him likable, in my opinion.

As for Bass, he isn't in *that* relationship with Rachel. He has his own demons to struggle with, but you know, at least he tried to treat his *family* well.

I'm sure Rachel carries that guilt of Ben's death around with her too. Yes, she's attracted to her bro-in-law, but if I recall correctly, Miles was the one who initiated the kiss, not her. I'm pretty sure Rachel has got a whole lot on her plate to worry about as well as the burden of the deaths of people. (It feels like I'm more lenient with Rachel than Miles. Is it because it's Liz Mitchell? For some reason, I'm thinking Ben's death bothers her more than it bothers Miles. Maybe it's just the actors.)

You know that isn't how you feel, Cris. Because:



Wondering if just MAYBE there is a chance for a real relationship, Rachel first needs to let the anger towards Bass go. I don't know how she's gonna do it, but she has empathized with him once in that bunker. She can do it again.

I honestly don't know where this ship is going with the latest spoilers. Even though I have a feeling it's going to end tragically (deja vu with Juliet ships), I'm still on board.

If I look at the situation from that angle, then I can see how Rachel is all buddy-buddy with Miles so easily because they've already reconciled before he left. We didn't see that part, and I didn't think of that, so I was a little when she seemed to forgive him after one slap.

I was just thinking that maybe Miles talked about the affair with Bass even before the blackout. Perhaps not even about the affair itself, but his liking towards her, because after all, they were best friends. It would create a very interesting dynamic between the three of them, especially now that we've seen Bass and Rachel interact during her imprisonment and know Bass has a little attraction towards her. If it is what we think it is, and Bass knows about it, then he must have felt conflicted over that attraction as well.

I loved that scene you talked about and how Rachel had that expression on her face when Bass mentioned Miles. I'll have to watch that again.

Thanks, Cris. The 4 years that I'm writing about are flashbacks, so there will be a current storyline that starts the next chapter. I was waiting for the season to start to see where they were. My updates might not be frequent because I'm still juggling with the Suliet fic. To jump from Juliet Burke straight to Rachel Matheson's head is misery, so I take a day off between writing them both. And if I've got questions about the characters and events, I'm definitely going to ask you about it. You're the expert.

flightless♥bird

Can I be added?

IloveJules!

I'm not sure if Anjelia comes here often. She added Grace, so when she sees your post, she will add you too.


That's really sweet of you.

And Grace, you're on fire! One more Rachel/Bass question.




And she loves Miles. And he's trying to change. He's actually trying to help. It's understandable that she would forgive him. I just don't like that she seems to have done it so easily.

I'm talking about Rachel and the way she dealt with Miles before the bombs dropped, obviously.

Because Rachel is in a very bad place now. She really needs her father, her daughter and Miles. She needs all those people she loves around her to feel better and saner. Especially Miles because the love she feels for Miles is different than the love she feels for Charlie and Gene.

It's a complete different situation, but the feeling is similar to what Bass needed after his whole family died. And it's what Bass needs too.

I agree with everything you said about Miles. Yes, it took 4 years for him to start to change and Charlie. If it wasn't for Charlie, Miles would still be stuck in Chicago drinking his pain away. So maybe it's a good thing that Charlie is with Bass now.

But I'd rather see Rachel helping Bass. And Bass helping Rachel too.


There is a deleted scene of Miles telling Charlie he's helping her because of Ben. But I feel Miles was much closer to Bass than his brother Ben. They were brothers, but not exactly best friends, I guess. It makes sense for Rachel to be more affected by Ben's death than Miles. Her connection to Ben seemed much stronger. That's why we should see what she's feeling about Ben.


Yes, I don't want to see things to be easy between them. Bass has done too many bad things against Rachel. She can't forgive him easily. He has to deserve it. And right now, he doesn't.





She definitely can do it again. Maybe we will see these two changing from enemies to friends. But keeping them separated during most of the season doesn't help much.


Well, that's a good excuse to post gifs, of course.





X


Sixth gif. Her face.

And then he takes away his mask and lets her know he liked the old Bass a lot better too. For a brief moment, he lets her see what he really feels. But of course, Rachel probably thinks he's lying, so she doesn't want to hear any of it and quickly changes the subject.