L i N d $ @ y

LOL that is hilarious!

I feel like there will be loop holes in her cover story as well. And you and I both know it's not going to be smooth sailing for them so there's bound to be some problems along the way.

Lauren60

Needless to say the last episode dealt a major blow to the prospects of a Mary and Tony happily-ever-after. But as unpleasant as it was to watch, I can honestly say I haven’t been licking my wounds since. No, not at all. Because when you’ve been hit upside the head by a two-by-four, licking your wounds isn’t nearly effective enough or, come to think of it, even feasible. No, the “Ouch!” caused by episode three calls for some serious medical attention. Medic! Medic!

The opening scene is quite lovely. Mary and Tony are lying in bed. He’s admiring her as she’s waking up. He asks her if she slept well and she says she did. She comments that it hasn’t taken her long to get used to sharing a bed again. They smile and Tony kisses her. Oh my gosh! They are so cute together I was thinking from my soon to burst bubble of happiness. There’s a knock at the door. The maid is delivering Mary’s breakfast. After Tony makes a hasty exit into his room, Mary opens the door and takes in the tray. Tony re-enters Mary’s room as she’s taking the cover off her food. Tony looks at the tray and he jokes “Well, you worked up a good appetite last night”. Mary says she can’t bear vulgar jokes. That was the first sign something was amiss. She didn’t respond with a witty or flirty comment. She responded rather coldly. Tony’s joke wasn’t all that vulgar and since when doesn’t Mary like a vulgar joke?

Tony goes on to say how he’s been making note of everything. How she looks in the morning, how she dresses and how she puts on her makeup. Mary asks him why and he says he wants to acclimate himself to the routines and rituals that will govern the rest of his life. He talks as if Mary accepting his proposal is a done deal.

Tony laments that they have to leave that day to which Mary says “I’m afraid so”. She says so far they’ve gotten away with driving around and dining in public for almost a week and they shouldn’t push their luck. Tony asks if it really matters if they’re found out since they’re going to be down the aisle very soon anyway. Mary says no they won’t and yes it does matter. She says “I’ve been tarnished and I won’t be tarnished again. Nothing is going to happen that isn’t properly announced, organized and executed.” Mary’s “tarnished” reference must be related to the Pamuk affair. How much has she told Tony about that? He doesn’t ask for an explanation so it appears he knows what she’s talking about. That’s interesting. Mary tries to slow Tony down by saying they won’t be going down the aisle so soon. She infers they will someday though with her “announced, organized and executed” as in an engagement announcement and wedding.

There’s a knock on the door for Tony’s room. As he gets up off the bed to accept delivery of his breakfast, he gives Mary a quick kiss and then another. Mary smiles and Tony leaves the room. What happens next is when the Mary and Tony story takes a pivotal turn. The smile on Mary’s face fades and it is replaced with a look of distress. She’s been hiding her true feelings.

That look on Mary’s face most definitely marks the beginning of the end to Mary and Tony I’m afraid. I’m disappointed by that of course. I’m disappointed too that Mary did her “hide behind the mask” routine. One of the things I liked about the Mary and Tony dynamic was that they were open and honest with each other. Mary isn’t being so now. She has to see that Tony has them walking down the aisle already. She needed to be firm and clear that, at the very least, she hadn’t made up her mind yet. Not doing so fed Tony’s notion that all was well and their marriage was imminent.

Their trip ends with Mary and Tony exiting the hotel. Mary says “We’ll talk soon”. That sounds an awful lot like “I’ll call you” and we know what that means. Tony says that they’re settled now, they just have to get organized. Mary says nothing in return. They exchange a quick kiss on the cheek. She gets in the car and it drives off. After Mary’s rather hasty exit, Tony is left standing alone on the sidewalk. Symbolic, I’m afraid, of what’s in store for this relationship.

This post is way too long already. I had hoped to pull off the bandage quickly but I have more to say about this momentous (not in a good way) episode. So, to be continued. Oh how I miss my bubble of happiness.

The scene started out so promising...






X

Mary lowers her mask...happiness bubble is officially burst


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L i N d $ @ y

That first gifset, I kept looking at Tom's abs.

I think this is the drama/angst that we've been waiting to happen, Lauren. We do know that it won't be smooth sailing for them but I know that the following eps will see them resolve these issues.

Andorra

Oh dear, Lauren, I was thinking of you while I watched the episode. I was pretty sure, from the beginning of the new series, that Tony and Mary would not end up together. It was all too fast and too clear and Tony's "indecent proposal" was the final nail in the coffin for me.

So I wasn't surprised when Mary obviously wasn't too happy after her sex trip with Tony. But I was a bit surprised how final she sounded in her talk with Tom. I don't think there's a way back.

My biggest fear is now, that JF is going to slander Tony's character to let Blake shine in comparision. I'm afraid that Tony will try to blackmail Mary with their sex week or that he turns out to be broken and was only after her money or something. I would really hate that, because I think so far Tony has been presented as a decent man and I would like it if it stayed that way. It's okay if he leaves heartbroken, but even Carlisle was allowed to leave on a semi-positive note and turning Tony now into a shady bad-guy would be very lazy and bad writing.

Sunshinebright

You guys have been alluding to this that some part of me is beginning to suspect it might be so. But I'm not completely expecting that. The key is in how he responds when Mary speaks up. Making Blake shine by comparison so Tony can 'lose out' with a finality is clichéd love-triangle scenario. I don't think it will happen - too obvious. Remember when Mary said Tony's compliments made her 'both irritated and beguiled?' She was beguiled pre-Liverpool, now I suspect his insistence and proposals will cause irritation instead. She had that same look when Tony showed up yet again unannounced at the Abbey and Mary leaned up to kiss his cheek. The speed at which she whisked her Grandma away to avoid confronting Tony was telling.
No Lauren I'm not trying to rub it in, just making my observations. Things indeed will be clearer in the next episode.

Lauren60

I don’t see it that way Lindsay. If the obstacles to them being together were coming from outside their relationship, I could see them getting through them and ending up together. As it appears now, it will be Mary herself who is the obstacle. That’s a whole different story. The only way they end up together is if Mary’s feelings for Tony change. That isn’t likely. It was made abundantly clear she isn’t very enamored with him anymore.

My last post left off with my bubble of happiness having been officially burst. But of course that wasn’t the end of the unpleasantness for me. Oh joy of joy, there was still ninety-five percent of the show yet to watch. And the hits just kept on coming…

Let’s see…how many ways did Mary say she wouldn’t be getting married to Tony anytime soon?

To Tony after he said they’d be going down the aisle very soon: “No we won’t.”
To Anna: “…there’s no hurry. We don’t have to rush into it.”
To Violet: “I won’t be hurried into anything. Not by you or by him.”

No need to read between the lines that’s for sure. The scene with Tom is where her feelings about the whole affair are clearly revealed. They were talking about Tom’s situation when he said “It can be hard to know what to do for the best. You don’t want to hurt people but you may have to.” Mary says she knows exactly what he means. Tom asks her if she’s talking about Tony. Mary says maybe, she doesn’t know, she’s not sure. She goes on to say she seems to have gotten “unsettled” where Tony is concerned.

Tom asks her what Tony has done wrong and she’s quick to say “Nothing”. She says they hadn’t spent much time together until recently and when they did she began to wonder how much they really had in common. Time out please! I find this spinning of the tale very aggravating. We’re being told that they haven’t spent much time together. They’ve known each other and have been keeping company for over two years. The tale now is that they haven’t spent much time together? If that was the case, why wasn’t spending more time together the first approach to seeing if they were compatible for marriage? Why jump to sleeping together to find out? This “how much we really have in common” stuff? Again, they spent time together on and off for over two years but none of it was used to gain some understanding of their common interests? I find that to be a very weak spinning of the tale.

Mary goes on to say “The point is I wasn’t seeing him clearly but now I do. He’s a nice man, a very nice man but not…I mean of course we talked about things but I think my judgment was rather clouded by…but I seem to have gotten over that now.” First of all it isn’t usually a good thing for a guy when he’s describe as “nice” by a woman. It basically means she’s really not that into him. She didn’t complete her thought after saying Tony is very nice. I think she was going to say “but not very clever”. She may have come to this conclusion on her own but she was probably on the lookout for it after what Charles said to her. Of course we can assume the clouding of Mary’s judgment was caused by her physical attraction to Tony. Really Mary? Are you an immature teenager with raging hormones or a grown woman who should be able to see a man for who he really is and not just for his looks? The last part of her statement essentially means Tony is out of her system now. Her itch has been scratched and now she’s over him. She comes across as very shallow.

I hoped that would be the end of the torture for me but no such luck. Tony shows up at Downton unexpectedly. Mary greets him with a fake smile on her face. Oh how lovely. Not! Mercifully the episode finally ends. Mercifully so does this post.

L i N d $ @ y

Then I think it is still possible that they can end up together. I don't know if it's just my optimism for them to happen (as I've always predicted) because I feel like if Mary is the obstacle, then they need to just talk it out. So far I'm seeing Tony above Charles in all things, emotional and physical. They have an issue they need to sort out right now and I think the show needs to address that.

Sunshinebright

Lindsay, I just don't get you. At times your posts read like they are not written by the same person. You swing towards Tony, then rave about Charles then sympathize with Phantom Napier............I mean I'm confused.

Lauren, Tony and Mary started seeing each other EXCLUSIVELY only after Rose's coming out Ball which was as per show timeline, just 6months (where the premier started). The past one year she talked about with him in their last scene during the Christmas special doesn't count because she was still grieving, and not giving either Charles or Tony any serious thought even though she could go dancing with Tony, meet-up with Charles at a museum, or spend time with both of them at the Rose's Ball.
The Liverpool experience like I like to call it was the only time, based on show canon, they had spent every waking moment together for a whole week. It is not the same as him occasionally turning up at Downton, or taking Mary to London for tea which might as well have been the nature of their budding relationship during those months after they returned from the Season.

I asked this same question though worded differently in the 'Charles' thread. After re-watching the Pamuk episode, things became clearer. The poster, Northbound explained it very well, (and this episode did as well), that Tony came to Mary at a vulnerable time in her life and the fact that he wanted her, flattered her immensely. She was drawn to him just as he was drawn to her. Nothing wrong here. The confusion for her was that this is the first man who was her true choice so she had to be sure ( remember Matthew was not her choice at first but was 'flung at her head'). I think what it shows is that looking at her history with men, she doesn't have very good judgment. Take a look at her picks of men she has had dalliances with in the past - Pamuk (she was seduced by him after she had flirted outrageously with him throughout the day), Carlyle(she was going to marry him), Napier ( she was flattered by his attentions and didn't discourage him only to find him boring later) and now Tony. I don't necessarily agree with Mary's choices but as per show canon, this is how her history with men has been portrayed.

Lauren60

I understand your point to be that my two year estimate for Mary and Tony to be seeing each other is wrong. It’s vague at best as to how much real “clock” time they’ve spent together since getting reacquainted. The way Downton jumps ahead in time, it’s impossible to know what has transpired during the gaps. I don’t recall it being explicitly stated that Mary and Tony were seeing each other exclusively for the last six months. If that was the case, I expect six months to be sufficient time for them to get to know each other enough to gauge how much they have in common. We were led to believe that the lone/last obstacle to Mary accepting Tony’s proposal was how well they were suited in the bedroom. Mary never even hinted she didn’t know him well enough otherwise or that she was concerned they hadn’t spent much time together. It was all about the sex then out of the blue she claims she just realized they don’t have much in common. I agree that Liverpool was their first extensive time spent together but even if their “official” courtship started only six months previous that should have been enough time for her to see their interests weren’t compatible. We’re supposed to believe her judgment was clouded by her physical attraction to him. I find that excuse lame and the spinning of the tale in that direction very weak.


I don’t agree that Tony (and Evelyn for that matter) should be lumped in with Pamuk and Carlisle as examples of Mary’s bad judgment in men. Pamuk coerced her into having sex and Carlisle was verbally and physically abusive to her. Tony has never conducted himself in that way, nowhere even close. Mary may have misjudged Tony’s compatibility with her but with Pamuk and Carlisle she misjudged their character. There’s a huge difference.


I’m concerned too that Tony could be turned into a dark character. I really hope he isn’t because it wouldn’t be true to what we’ve been shown about him so far. As you stated he’s been presented as a decent man. There have been no signs of a temper or a vengeful streak. My concern would be if his affection for Mary crosses over to an obsession. He fell hard and fast for her and now he’s had her in his bed. She’s more in his heart and mind than ever after sharing such intimacy with her. In their scene in the hotel, he said he had been making note of everything about her. That could be construed as obsessive and it concerns me. If Tony doesn’t accept Mary’s rejection well, I hope it’s because he refuses to give up and wants to win Mary back, nothing nefarious. If Tony isn’t going to be the one for Mary my consolation will be he is allowed to leave with dignity and as the honorable, caring man he has always been.

On a different topic, Mary’s character is really being tarnished by what’s happened even if it’s never made public. I found it very interesting how Mary is being portrayed as the cad. When Anna heard a wedding date hadn’t been set she asked with great concern if Tony was trying to get out of it. When Mary asked Anna to hide the book and the “thing” at the cottage, Anna agreed but said she felt like she was aiding and abetting sin and hoped she wouldn’t be made to pay. That revealed a lot about what Anna thought of how Mary had conducted herself. Violet thought Mary had been seduced and wanted to know if there was any chance of a proposal. When she heard Tony wanted to set the date, she told Mary not to let any grass grow under his feet if he offered to do the decent thing. Mary is the one who is being made out to be the “bad guy”.

I don’t blame Tony or Mary for what’s happened to this point. Tony made the “scandalous suggestion” but Mary had the final say if it happened or not. Tony is being presumptuous assuming they are going to get married but Mary hasn’t told him outright that they may not. Tony’s head is in the clouds or something because in the past he’s been able to read Mary very well but that isn’t the case now. I can't blame Mary if she thinks it's best not to marry Tony. If she isn't sure, she shouldn't marry him. I’ll wait and see what transpires from here. Hopefully both of them will handle things with sensitivity and grace. I have a sneaking suspicion I'm hoping for too much.

On yet another topic, I think Mary and Tony looked great together in their hotel scene in episode three. The way they kissed was very relaxed and natural, not forced. Their intimacy was more convincing than Mary and Matthew's. For such a great couple, Mary and Matthew had some really awful kisses. For two that were supposedly so passionate for each other, it didn't come across in their kissing scenes. Tom and Michelle were great in the hotel scene. Well done!

Sunshinebright

Sorry Lauren. That wasn't my intention to imply the men in Mary's life were all faulty. Tony is decent and certainly Evelyn Napier. English is not my first language so I didn't express very well what I meant to say. What I implied is that Mary can be wishy-washy and that she thinks she knows what she wants until she doesn't. She disappointed all those guys ( except Pamuk) after leading them on. Heck she even disappointed Matthew the first time around. No, if I knew someone like her in real life, I would advice any guy falling for her not to fall too hard and to keep his eyes open. Mary can be caddish although quite polite about it and that's why any guy who can match her has to have an edge to him and not allow her to call the shot.
Anyway, on to the next episode.

L i N d $ @ y

This is the Tony/Mary thread so while Lauren knows that I don't like them as a couple, as a mod here, I have to be unbiased. When I post here I think what will I post if I like them? As moderators, we have to be impartial and unbiased about all ships even if we do prefer one over the other.

I agree with this.

Isn't Mary always "the bad guy" anyway?

Like what was mentioned above, maybe this is a good thing. I don't want to put up the Matthew card once again but she did reject him once and look how well that turned out in the end. So perhaps Mary needs more time to think, to be sure. Because I'd rather have her be sure than not sure at all before marrying Tony.

Lauren60

Some final thoughts about episode three (a.k.a The Episode from Hell, a.k.a. The Bubble of Happiness Burster)

The turn of events in episode three is not what I hoped for of course but the reality is the story is going to go where it’s going to go. My chief complaint is I feel like the rug was pulled out from under me. The previous episode ended with a happy and excited couple kissing. The first scene of this episode ended with a look of distress on Mary’s face. Now that’s what I call harsh! How about letting me see signs of Mary’s waning feelings for Tony? How about letting me see the events that caused her to do so? There was no such consideration. Fellowes was playing a game of “Gotcha!” and he got me. That’s why I felt like I’d been hit upside the head with a two-by-four. Ouch! That hurt! Well, I can be a good sport and give Fellowes the credit he deserves. Touché Mr. Fellowes. Well played. Well done. You bastard! (Sorry, my good sportsmanship can only go so far. )

There’s a chance, a very slim one, that the tide could turn back in favor of Mary and Tony ending up together but it is very, very slim. I’m not flying the white flag of surrender yet but let me put it this way. The white flag is unpacked, unfurled and within my reach.

It’s time to move on. The next episode is only a day away. It won’t be nearly as painful to watch as the last one. It couldn’t be could it? Perhaps I should strongly consider wearing protective head gear while I watch it just in case. My head is only just recovering from the last episode.


This represents what I was doing while watching episode three...

Andorra

I really hope it for you, but I'm fearing worse is to come....
I hope I'm wrong.

L i N d $ @ y

Do you think it's still possible for them to be together in the end, Lauren? And how do you want for it to play out considering all the things that happened?

Lauren60

Oh my, another tough episode to watch. I was prepared and braced for it this time but it was still difficult. Breakups are almost always ugly and this one is living up to that description. Neither Mary nor Tony have much to be proud of as far as their conduct goes.

Early in the episode Mary appears to be very subdued. Anna and she are talking about when she’s going to see Tony. Anna says it is right to do it face-to-face. Mary agrees but says of course she’s dreading it.

Apparently Mary isn’t too dismayed about what she’s about to do to Tony because she is very much enjoying herself at a fashion show. Who can be concerned about breaking a man’s heart when there are all these lovely fashions to admire? “Oh yummy!” Oh and golly there’s Charles Blake. She smiles at him and they exchange glances. Mary can’t be flirting with Charles can she? For heaven’s sake, she hasn’t even broken up with Tony yet. Who is this Mary? She is all over the place with her feelings and behavior. I’m just very puzzled by her.

Side note: Charles is at the fashion show with Mabel Lane Fox. He introduces the two ladies pretending to have forgotten their history. Mabel says “Try not to be an ass Charles”. I like her already. Mabel is very direct and says it’s not often you meet the woman you were jilted for. She tells Mary not to worry, she wouldn’t want a man who preferred someone else. Time out! This exchange gave me a flashback to season two. Richard Carlisle asks Mary pointblank if she is still in love with Matthew. Mary responds with something along the lines of “Could I ever love a man who prefers another woman to me?” Of course in that instance Mary was still in love with Matthew. It’s not known for sure how Mabel feels about Tony but when Charles asks her if she’s over him she says “Absolutely”. She makes a hasty exit though right after saying that. I don’t care one way or another at this point how she feels about Tony. I just found it interesting how familiar the exchange sounded.

The scene wraps up with Charles asking Mary out to dinner. She readily accepts. She’s wasting no time starting up with Charles again. She hasn’t even dumped Tony yet. Really Mary, get a grip!

Mary and Charles are having dinner when he says he was never the type to die over a broken heart. Mary says she only hopes Tony feels the same. She’s looking at Charles as she says it. She probably wants to see his reaction. When she did that, I literally said “You bitch”. What a betrayal to Tony. She is telling Charles, of all people, before she tells Tony. I really couldn’t believe it. It was such a disrespectful and classless thing to do. She and Tony have shared so much. She claimed to have loved him. The least she could do was let Tony be the first to know.

Charles says “I wish I could work you out”. Mary says “I wish I could work me out.” Mary saying that is very telling. She doesn’t even know what’s going on with her. She can’t even figure herself out. I guess I shouldn’t feel badly that I have no clue what’s going on with her. Apparently even Mary doesn’t know. I don’t think describing her recent behavior as “unstable” is an exaggeration.

Charles asks her what’s Tony done wrong and she says he’s done nothing wrong. She’s very fond of him and will always be fond of him. She wants him to be the godfather of her children just not their father. She doesn’t explain why though. The scene ends with Charles saying there’s a way to soften the blow if she wants to. Oh joy! Let the scheming begin...

Moving on to when Mary tells Tony…well, we don’t know exactly what she told Tony because the scene starts with Tony saying he can’t be hearing correctly. He can’t believe that she slept with a man because he wants to marry her and now she changes her mind. He says it’s insane. It’s interesting he used that word. Is Mary insane? No, of course not, but her behavior has definitely been “off”. Tony insists that he won’t let it happen. “I love you and you love me. Well, at least you told me so when we were in Liverpool.” Mary says she knows and she thought she meant it. So when they were in Liverpool she told him again that she loves him. What? So during the trip she told him she loves him but by the end of it she was over him? I’m with Tony, I really don’t get this!

Tony wants to know what’s changed. Mary can’t explain exactly but something has that’s all. Tony is searching for an answer. He asks her is it because he’s a bad lover? Is that what she’s trying to tell him? Oh my gosh! Tony has made himself so vulnerable in his search for why Mary is breaking up with him. Mary tells him not to be silly, it’s not that at all. It’s just that she feels she’s sort of woken up out of a dream. He can’t get a straight answer out of her. He’s really angry with her now. “How flattering. We go to bed together and you wake up.” Mary says she’s not sure they have enough in common to make a go of it. Tony isn’t listening to her anymore.

He says he refuses to accept it. He refuses to believe that a woman like her, a lady, would give herself to a man without first being certain he was the one. Tony isn’t being fair to Mary. The purpose of their trip to Liverpool was for Mary to be sure. Tony is unfairly invoking how a “lady” should behave when he knows full well the purpose of their trip to Liverpool. It isn’t fair for him to be revising why they went to bed together.

Tony says that this is something that they’ve got to get through and they will. He says they’ll get through this together. He walks away and stops. He glares at Mary and waits for her to walk with him.

Tony is working on the premise that Mary loves him. She said so on more than one occasion and she went to bed with him on more than one occasion. He can’t fathom that after all of that she wants to break it off with him. He’s been blindsided. He’s hurt, confused and angry. His behavior exhibited all of those emotions. It didn’t help that Mary couldn’t give him a reason. We’ve never seen Tony this animated for any reason. He’s always been quite low key and subdued. I think that’s what makes his angry reaction so startling.

Overall I find myself sympathizing with Tony and seeing him as a victim of Mary’s inexplicable behavior. Did he behave perfectly? No, far from it. Does he need to stop, realize it’s over and let Mary go? Yes. I find it hard to sympathize too much with Mary though. Her behavior is all over the place and unpredictable. I don’t think she even knows what she’s going to do next. I wonder if her behavior is related to Matthew’s death. She’s out of mourning but maybe the pain over his death is now making her behave recklessly and erratically. I don’t know. I’m searching for an answer just like Tony was…

I know this post is super long but I really needed to pull off the bandage quickly this time. With the way things are going, I have a feeling I won’t be making many more posts to this thread in the future. There isn’t much to “appreciate” about Mary and Tony these days….