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Old 10-02-2014, 09:25 AM
  #61
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Mary Crawley? Now you're talking my language.

I could write pages about her character but I'll keep it and concise as possible.

On first impression, Mary is cold, distant ,sarcastic and likes to show an unmoved and hardened exterior. She is practical, pragmatic and does what needs to be done regardless of how she feels about it. She is extremely well bred, impeccably poised and carries herself with an elegant and arrogant hauteur typical of 'the perfect aristo lady'. In short, a true 'Lady of the Manor'.
She keeps her feelings private and actual likes few people in her life. However she's very loyal to them and is capable of 'going out of her way' for them. She's a harsh realist but not too stubborn to change her own views if they are wrong. She can show flashes of intelligence only when she wants to but never to make a statement or to 'prove she's smart'. No, she plays demure until the time she needs to show she has claws.
She loves male attention but also likes to be in control of whatever attraction she feels for the said male. Frankly for long time I never saw what Matthew saw in her. They are as opposite as can be. But like he said 'You are horrid but I love you anyway'!


I'm sorry to add the rest of your post didn't make much sense to me.........but ok! No that's not accurate but you don't need to defend why you like or prefer Napier. My stand is too keep focus on the characters who ARE here, not those who aren't.

Last edited by Sunshinebright; 10-02-2014 at 09:53 AM
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Old 10-02-2014, 11:57 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by lassothemoon (View Post)

Re HarshBench: Mary is very compassionate. She chooses when and when not to be, but I've seen examples since the beginning of the show--her being a protective older sister to Sybil ( which yeah is kinda offset by her relationship with Edith but that's beside the point ), her defending Tom, her caring for Matthew when he was wounded...I think it's definitely a trait she has. She's also had to navigate a patriarchal society all her life that denied her her birthright simply because she was born a girl, so that could definitely fuel her wanting a better world. She might not be as political as Sybil was but she is open to change/wants change--even just from that conversation with Anna after she went to the chemist.


Tony did turn his house into a school for girls--so that does better the world in that sense.

I agree Mary can be compassionate and caring. However, she is not exceptionally so. Most people are compassionate and caring with those whom they love, as Mary is. But someone who is exceptionally so would behave that way with a wider circle of people, not just with a few.

And Mary's caring side is offset by a self-centered, entitled side that is focused on her getting exactly what she wants. Sure, she's had to navigate a patriarchal society but so has every other woman of her time. And of course she would have loved that society to change so that she could get Downton. But did she do anything about it? Get involved in social justice causes, women's suffrage, progressive politics? No. More importantly, did she care about the rights of women in general or just about HER right to get Downton and how it was unfair that Matthew got it instead of her?

It was unfair that Sybil and Edith didn't get it too. The whole system was unfair: unfair to the lower classes who were given so little chance to advance in life, unfair to women who couldn't vote, unfair to younger siblings (including hers) who couldn't inherit just because they were born later than the oldest. Mary is at the top of a very tall ladder. Not the highest rung, but pretty close. Closer than her sisters....but that never seemed to concern her. That they were never going to inherit Downton? She never gave it a thought.

I don't feel sorry for Mary regarding the "patriarchal society" thing because that was just one aspect of the injustice of society in that time period. But she has never shown an interest in correcting those injustices, least of all the class system that keeps her on top. She is more than happy to let that stand because it benefits her. Mary dislikes the patriarchy primarily because it took Downton away from her. Not because of broader social principles or concern for everyone who is kept down because of an accident of birth.

I am not saying she isn't aware of sexism and the problems that accompany it. She recognizes them and cares about them a bit, but not enough to really do anything about them. Her main problem with the patriarchy was always that it was unfair to HER because it kept her from inheriting the estate and the title. I don't really see how that makes her a more compassionate and caring person.

As for the Sybil/Edith thing, I don't think it's "beside the point" that she was caring with Sybil but is the opposite with Edith. Sybil was easy to love: everyone loved her. That is precisely an example of how far Mary's warm, compassionate, loving side goes. She loved one of her sisters but she treats the other like dirt. It balances out to "neutral" on the compassion scale.

Last edited by HarshBench; 10-02-2014 at 12:12 PM
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Old 10-02-2014, 12:27 PM
  #63
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Agree with your post, HarshBench. That's all Mary - self-centered, self possessed and unapologetic. She loves her gilded cage and its trappings - wealth, privilege and position. She will NEVER run away 'to marry' anybody based on ideals but she might secretly admire those who had the courage to. But it's not for her.

Still she interests me the most.
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Old 10-02-2014, 02:56 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshinebright (View Post)
Mary Crawley? Now you're talking my language.

I could write pages about her character but I'll keep it and concise as possible.

On first impression, Mary is cold, distant ,sarcastic and likes to show an unmoved and hardened exterior. She is practical, pragmatic and does what needs to be done regardless of how she feels about it. She is extremely well bred, impeccably poised and carries herself with an elegant and arrogant hauteur typical of 'the perfect aristo lady'. In short, a true 'Lady of the Manor'.
She keeps her feelings private and actual likes few people in her life. However she's very loyal to them and is capable of 'going out of her way' for them. She's a harsh realist but not too stubborn to change her own views if they are wrong. She can show flashes of intelligence only when she wants to but never to make a statement or to 'prove she's smart'. No, she plays demure until the time she needs to show she has claws.
She loves male attention but also likes to be in control of whatever attraction she feels for the said male. Frankly for long time I never saw what Matthew saw in her. They are as opposite as can be. But like he said 'You are horrid but I love you anyway'!


I'm sorry to add the rest of your post didn't make much sense to me.........but ok! No that's not accurate but you don't need to defend why you like or prefer Napier. My stand is too keep focus on the characters who ARE here, not those who aren't.
You're the one who brought him up. I pride myself on my accuracy as a law student so I'm afraid your post didn't make much sense to me. If you don't want to read about Evelyn, why read my posts?

I agree with some of your analysis but certainly not all.

She's a selfish person, I admit that, but she's also one of my favorite characters--because with Mary, nothing is simple. A lot of her caring actions are guided by her own interest but you could say that about anyone--because selflessness in and of itself is rare.

I do think she's being ridiculous about Edith but that doesn't take away from the fact that she has shown compassion and can show compassion. I feel like that's the main argument for this idea that she's a horrible person. It isn't that black and white.

The patriarchal society focus is something Fellowes tried to get us to sympathize with--it may not have worked for all of us as seen here, but that was the intention. In plain terms, Fellowes is Mary's baby and he's going to spoil her.
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Old 10-02-2014, 03:23 PM
  #65
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[
Quote:
QUOTE=lassothemoon;78239371]You're the one who brought him up. I pride myself on my accuracy as a law student so I'm afraid your post didn't make much sense to me. If you don't want to read about Evelyn, why read my posts?


I like to take everyone seriously but if you insist.............


Quote:
I agree with some of your analysis but certainly not all.

She's a selfish person, I admit that, but she's also one of my favorite characters--because with Mary, nothing is simple. A lot of her caring actions are guided by her own interest but you could say that about anyone--because selflessness in and of itself is rare.

I do think she's being ridiculous about Edith but that doesn't take away from the fact that she has shown compassion and can show compassion. I feel like that's the main argument for this idea that she's a horrible person. It isn't that black and white.

The patriarchal society focus is something Fellowes tried to get us to sympathize with--it may not have worked for all of us as seen here, but that was the intention. [B]In plain terms, Fellowes is Mary's baby and he's going to spoil her.[/B
That is something we can agree on.
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Old 10-02-2014, 04:03 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by lassothemoon (View Post)
There are also valid reasons to dislike him, many of which I have pointed out in this thread
Oh, but I never said that there aren't valid reasons to dislike him. Believe me, I'm aware of all of those reasons.


Quote:
As far as liking him--arguably the majority of viewers who want him for Mary do so because of the allusions to Matthew Crawley, many of which you made in this thread.
There are similarities, that's true. But why can't former Matthew fans like Charles because simply because both men happen to embody character traits that we ordinarily find attractive anyway? My issue was with how you phrased it: "Viewers might want that kind of dynamic because it's hard to let go". That sounds like you're saying we're all so distraught over Matthew's death that we can't move on, so we're clinging to something similar. I just don't think that's the case at all.

It's like saying that Mary has been (or was, if you think she's over him) keeping Charles around because she's unable to move on past Matthew. Do you think that's true? Because I don't.

I think that Mary finds certain character traits attractive, and Matthew and Charles happen to embody some of those same traits. And I think that many viewers are attracted to Charles not because they find it "hard to let go" of a fictional character, but because that's the kind of TV character they generally gravitate towards.

After all, it's not as if Matthew and M/M broke some kind of mold. They were two witty people who fell in love with each other in spite of their initial bickering and prejudices. Where have we seen that story before? Only everywhere!


Quote:
More than that I have a problem with his notion that Mary only values intellectually charged conversation over love and loyalty and in essence her partner's making her happy because it's frankly a load of bull. He seems to have this ridiculous idea that she can only be happy with a guy who challenges everything she says ( I.e. him ), and can't be happy in a marriage based on companionship, attraction, compassion, shared experiences / background, basically everything she wants from Tony, when there is potential in that kind of dynamic which she evidentially sees.
But when did Charles say any of that? All he said was that Mary is cleverer than Tony. He never said Mary would never be happy with Tony, or that she wouldn't find other things to value in her marriage with him. He was just talking about that one issue potentially being something that Mary would find hard to deal with.

I mean, when we take into account that Tony and Charles served in the war together, that means that Charles has insight into Tony that Mary might not necessarily have. I assumed that his warning was at least partially based on that knowledge.


Quote:
but as of last week she didn't want Blake.
Eh. I'm willing to wait and see on this. At one time, Mary was panting with desire for Pamuk over Matthew. And we see how that turned out.

I'm not counting Charles out yet.


Quote:
I mean she isn't bored by Gillingham and she told Blake "I'm sorry if I've hurt you"--to me that's her making a decision, at least for the time being, of him over Blake.
She isn't bored by Tony yet, but I'd be very surprised if the Mary/Charles conversation wasn't foreshadowing of some kind that she may be bored soon. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point was of the conversation -- it certainly didn't stop Mary from going with Tony, which makes me think Charles's warning will somehow come into play later.


Quote:
She doesn't necessarily dislike him, but she doesn't like him enough to choose him over Tony, or for his spiel to stop her from taking Gillingham for a test drive.
Mary's stubborn, though. She had already made up her mind to take Tony for a test drive, so that's what she's going to do, and from what I could tell Charles's speech only made her even more determined to prove him wrong, which IMO says more about the connection between Mary/Charles than it does about Mary/Tony.

Anyway, I don't know that Mary's decision in 502 means that her heart is finished with Charles forever. As we saw with Matthew, sometimes Mary needs to lose something to realize how much she valued it. She hasn't lost Charles yet. If she were to lose him, how would she react? My guess is that she wouldn't take it well, and that's why I'm hoping JF goes there.
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Old 10-02-2014, 04:25 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by lassothemoon (View Post)
You're the one who brought him up. I pride myself on my accuracy as a law student so I'm afraid your post didn't make much sense to me. If you don't want to read about Evelyn, why read my posts?

I agree with some of your analysis but certainly not all.

She's a selfish person, I admit that, but she's also one of my favorite characters--because with Mary, nothing is simple. A lot of her caring actions are guided by her own interest but you could say that about anyone--because selflessness in and of itself is rare.

I do think she's being ridiculous about Edith but that doesn't take away from the fact that she has shown compassion and can show compassion. I feel like that's the main argument for this idea that she's a horrible person. It isn't that black and white.

The patriarchal society focus is something Fellowes tried to get us to sympathize with--it may not have worked for all of us as seen here, but that was the intention. In plain terms, Fellowes is Mary's baby and he's going to spoil her.
Oh, her treatment of Edith isn't the only thing about her that bothers me. She's done and said other things that I consider selfish, rude and calculating. I basically think she's a narcissist and when it comes to Edith kind of of a sadist. And I mean that seriously.

That doesn't mean she can't be compassionate and caring, of course. She can be. Although I think it tends to happen when it requires little to no sacrifice on her part, or even when she knows it will bear its own rewards for her.

But frankly, I wouldn't mind all of this if Fellowes didn't adore and spoil her so much, because he does so as blatantly as her parents do and it doesn't do her or the story any favors IMO. And if she would treat her sister better I would like her better too. Because as much as Fellowes spoils Mary, he punishes Edith.

Mary knows the vast disparity in their fortunes and she doesn't give a damn. She pours salt in the wound. That, to me, is antisocial behavior (in the clinical sense) and weighs heavily against her in my assessment of her character.
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:47 AM
  #68
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Just the fact that Blake quarrels with Mary can't be all the reason for her to fall for him, surely!? Matthew was also very charming and nice and so clearly admired her, that it was easy to see even when they quarreld that he was in love with her. Blake was just snide and rude and condescenting and then suddenly changed to be her fan from one moment to the next and just because of a few pigs and immediately Tony Gillingham and he weren't any different any more. They're just two handsome, dark haired suitors, both well born and wealthy and I don't see a big difference.
Quarreling isn't enough surely. Blake is underdeveloped. A few moments here and there and they are already in the "love" level. I can say the same thing with Tony. That's the reason why I can't fully get on-board with them. Something is lacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshinebright (View Post)
'...........ship and let ship............

Well the Evelyn shipping (I hate that word) is really crashingly repetitive and goes around in circles. I like this board because it's mature and informative. If only we can avoid these 'shipping' that goes round in circles. The same arguments have made over and over again about characters who are barely given any airtime and whose story exist largely in people's minds. Can we just stick to what is on-screen? the story the Fellowes is telling rather than the one we wish he could tell? Just my thoughts.
Thanks (about FF and the posters). I enjoy everyone's arguments here. Otherwise if we all agree on the same things, it can get pretty boring around here. Unfortunately we can't avoid all this 'shipping' talk as this is what the show is about now especially in terms of Mary's love life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lassothemoon (View Post)
She's a selfish person, I admit that, but she's also one of my favorite characters--because with Mary, nothing is simple. A lot of her caring actions are guided by her own interest but you could say that about anyone--because selflessness in and of itself is rare.

I do think she's being ridiculous about Edith but that doesn't take away from the fact that she has shown compassion and can show compassion. I feel like that's the main argument for this idea that she's a horrible person. It isn't that black and white.
Apart from how she treats Edith, I do find Mary a very interesting character. You can either love her or hate her, no in-between. I don't like how nasty she can be, how she basically just sits around and wait for things to happen. And would only do "something" if Downton is threatened. She's certainly not the best sister out there and because of that I do like that the character has flaws. She's JF's favorite? Well okay. It's not the first time a writer has a favorite pairing/character on a show.
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:47 AM
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IDK, I used to like her okay....never love her, but go back and forth on her. But I think she regressed in S3 and since the S3 CS has been cemented as ....well, what I described above.

Now I no longer go back and forth. She's just on my bad side and always will be. I actually find her unpleasant to watch most of the time, or just tedious.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:22 AM
  #70
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Oh, but I never said that there aren't valid reasons to dislike him. Believe me, I'm aware of all of those reasons.




There are similarities, that's true. But why can't former Matthew fans like Charles because simply because both men happen to embody character traits that we ordinarily find attractive anyway? My issue was with how you phrased it: "Viewers might want that kind of dynamic because it's hard to let go". That sounds like you're saying we're all so distraught over Matthew's death that we can't move on, so we're clinging to something similar. I just don't think that's the case at all.

It's like saying that Mary has been (or was, if you think she's over him) keeping Charles around because she's unable to move on past Matthew. Do you think that's true? Because I don't.

I think that Mary finds certain character traits attractive, and Matthew and Charles happen to embody some of those same traits. And I think that many viewers are attracted to Charles not because they find it "hard to let go" of a fictional character, but because that's the kind of TV character they generally gravitate towards.

After all, it's not as if Matthew and M/M broke some kind of mold. They were two witty people who fell in love with each other in spite of their initial bickering and prejudices. Where have we seen that story before? Only everywhere!




But when did Charles say any of that? All he said was that Mary is cleverer than Tony. He never said Mary would never be happy with Tony, or that she wouldn't find other things to value in her marriage with him. He was just talking about that one issue potentially being something that Mary would find hard to deal with.

I mean, when we take into account that Tony and Charles served in the war together, that means that Charles has insight into Tony that Mary might not necessarily have. I assumed that his warning was at least partially based on that knowledge.




Eh. I'm willing to wait and see on this. At one time, Mary was panting with desire for Pamuk over Matthew. And we see how that turned out.

I'm not counting Charles out yet.




She isn't bored by Tony yet, but I'd be very surprised if the Mary/Charles conversation wasn't foreshadowing of some kind that she may be bored soon. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point was of the conversation -- it certainly didn't stop Mary from going with Tony, which makes me think Charles's warning will somehow come into play later.




Mary's stubborn, though. She had already made up her mind to take Tony for a test drive, so that's what she's going to do, and from what I could tell Charles's speech only made her even more determined to prove him wrong, which IMO says more about the connection between Mary/Charles than it does about Mary/Tony.

Anyway, I don't know that Mary's decision in 502 means that her heart is finished with Charles forever. As we saw with Matthew, sometimes Mary needs to lose something to realize how much she valued it. She hasn't lost Charles yet. If she were to lose him, how would she react? My guess is that she wouldn't take it well, and that's why I'm hoping JF goes there.
I didn't mean to quote everything but it's hard on my phone.

The thing is, those aren't the only character traits Mary is attracted to. At this stage, she's more drawn to Gillingham because of his character traits. A guy like Matthew isn't the only sort of man she would be happy with--and the long and short of that is what Blake was saying with his whole "that would have worked in the last century". He's talking down to her by insinuating that she doesn't know what she's doing, as a woman, choosing to have a relationship with a man that isn't him--and he saw fit to insult that man to make himself look better. For all the comparison to Matthew, that's not something he did or would have done. It's not comparable to the Carlisle situation because he was concerned about her well-being and her happiness--Blake is only concerned with why she didn't choose him

Fellowes isn't gonna make her crawl back to him because he was right about Tony being too dumb for her. Some people might find his arrogance attractive but arguably Mary doesn't.
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Old 10-04-2014, 04:58 AM
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At this point in the series, I'm interested about Mr. Drewe & Edith's SL. Will we see Bricker more? Because I like fresh faces on the show too just as long as they bring some needed SL progression for some characters.

I kind of want to root for Thomas to have a proper SL as well but it looks like this whole thing with Baxter/Molesley will linger on. I'm eager for more Violet/Isobel interaction too. This whole business with Lord Merton/Dr. Clarke is fun to watch (for me).

Very lukewarm on Mary's love life drama as well as Tom/Sarah's friendship. Hoping too that Rose has a better SL this season. I'm also cautious about Bates/Anna and Daisy - which would probably mean with all this education, she's bound to leave Downton soon?
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Old 10-04-2014, 07:52 AM
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At this point in the series, I'm interested about Mr. Drewe & Edith's SL. Will we see Bricker more? Because I like fresh faces on the show too just as long as they bring some needed SL progression for some characters.

I kind of want to root for Thomas to have a proper SL as well but it looks like this whole thing with Baxter/Molesley will linger on. I'm eager for more Violet/Isobel interaction too. This whole business with Lord Merton/Dr. Clarke is fun to watch (for me).

Very lukewarm on Mary's love life drama as well as Tom/Sarah's friendship. Hoping too that Rose has a better SL this season. I'm also cautious about Bates/Anna and Daisy - which would probably mean with all this education, she's bound to leave Downton soon?
I'm wondering if the actor playing Thomas (ha, can't think of his name) is getting tired of doing basically the same thing every series, I should think that's why his partner in crime O'Brian walked out, she was getting bored of playing one dimensional.

Wish I could summon up more interest in Mary's love life too, plus the Tom/Sarah situation, you're right Lindsay, Violet and Isobel scenes are much more entertaining to watch.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:09 AM
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I'm wondering if the actor playing Thomas (ha, can't think of his name) is getting tired of doing basically the same thing every series, I should think that's why his partner in crime O'Brian walked out, she was getting bored of playing one dimensional.
I actually think Thomas is one of the least one dimensional characters in the show. I hate him, I love him, I hate him, I pity him, I detest him, I'm afraid for him, I cry for him...

IMO he has so many different layers, he's absolutely fascinating and one of my absolute favourites.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:30 AM
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The thing is, those aren't the only character traits Mary is attracted to.
Oh, I've never thought those were the only character traits she finds attractive. But I think it's a large part of what she finds attractive.


Quote:
At this stage, she's more drawn to Gillingham because of his character traits.
I don't know, I think a large part of her attraction to Tony is because she's physically attracted to him and enjoys that such a "glamorous pirate" is attracted to her. She might also like that he has a touch of the "old world" to him, and that he's charming, but mostly I think it's a physical attraction.

Why?

1. In their first scene together, they only talked briefly, but Mary turned to give him another look as they departed. They didn't talk long enough for her to be intensely fascinated by his personality, but all she needed to be attracted to him physically was a look -- which she got. So it does seem to me like it's his face/body that hooked her.

2. Her reaction to what Charles said about sex and love struck me as very telling. I still feel like that's going to come into play later, and if it does I think it'll be bad for Tony.


Quote:
A guy like Matthew isn't the only sort of man she would be happy with--and the long and short of that is what Blake was saying with his whole "that would have worked in the last century".
I think this comes down to how we view Mary. Does she need a total Matthew clone to be happy? No. But I do think she needs to find her husband someone who is interesting to talk to.

Is that man Tony? I personally don't think so.

You think Evelyn could be that kind of man. Maybe, but like I've said, I'd need more evidence of that.

I do think Charles, of the three suitors we've seen, is the one who's "brain she finds most entertaining," as JF said.

Is that the ONLY thing she needs to make her happy? No. I think she needs other things, like loyalty, passion, a sense of humor...

But I do think "he has to be an interesting guy" is somewhere at the top of the list.


Quote:
It's not comparable to the Carlisle situation because he was concerned about her well-being and her happiness--Blake is only concerned with why she didn't choose him
Was Matthew only concerned with her well-being and her happiness? I don't think that was his sole concern. Matthew also wanted Mary for himself, just as Charles does.

Charles is just blunter about certain things than Matthew was.


Quote:
Fellowes isn't gonna make her crawl back to him because he was right about Tony being too dumb for her.
No one said JF was going to make her crawl back to Charles. Nor would I particularly want to see Mary crawling to Charles or anyone.

But that's not the only way this story could play out happily for Mary/Charles.


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Originally Posted by carrie.suze (View Post)
I'm wondering if the actor playing Thomas (ha, can't think of his name) is getting tired of doing basically the same thing every series, I should think that's why his partner in crime O'Brian walked out, she was getting bored of playing one dimensional.
I actually disagree on this -- while Thomas is a trouble-maker, he has more layers to him than that, as we've seen most notably in his relationship with Jimmy. That gives RJC a lot of subtle things to play, even when he's causing trouble on the surface.
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Old 10-04-2014, 11:40 AM
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I actually think Thomas is one of the least one dimensional characters in the show. I hate him, I love him, I hate him, I pity him, I detest him, I'm afraid for him, I cry for him...

IMO he has so many different layers, he's absolutely fascinating and one of my absolute favourites.
That's fair enough, we're all entitled to like who we like on the show, I just tend to find his storyline's pretty much the same every series, and I can't find any sympathy for someone who's basically a bully, sure he has the odd moment when he's briefly 'human' but it doesn't take him long to revert to type again.
I've no doubt in tomorrow's episode he'll have it in for Baxter, and or Moseley.
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