lassothemoon

I agree with this. She seemed almost angry afterward like she was determined to prove him wrong, and herself wrong--the seeds of doubt have been sown.

For the record, I don't happen to think that her husband needs to be as smart as she is ( and really Matthew wasn't that brilliant come on now ) like he was saying because she's clearly tired of fighting. I mean think about all that she had to go through to be with Matthew and to stay with him--she wants an easier time of it and in that sense it does make perfect sense to want someone she knows she isn't going to clash with. At the same time ideally they'd be able to be frank with each other because that's an important part of marriage too, and Charles was very frank here.

However, I don't think she's going to choose him nor do I think she should, because whoever she chooses should be someone who brings out the best in her, and to me he's way too petulant and bitter. He calmed down a bit toward the end but he still ended up insulting both Gillingham and Mary and that was bad form, as Lauren pointed out. It was very condescending. It might not have necessarily been his intention, but he is a condescending person. So is Mary, but that's where they need to be different.


This is beside the point but I don't think that he's in any way better than Gillingham as far as moral scruples go either--he's kind of a hypocrite. I mean he hates the aristocracy but he profits from it, he hides his family background but he's still very much a part of that system. As combative as Sarah Bunting is, she sticks to her guns. Though I will say Mr. Blake's flip flipping will guarantee him a future in politics

northboundtrain

I don't think Matthew was brilliant, but I do think he was sharper/cleverer than Tony is, and I definitely think Mary's sharper/cleverer than Tony is.

Regarding Matthew and Mary being an intellectual match for each other, I always think back to that early dinner scene where she tried to needle him with the story of Andromeda. Instead, they went back and forth, using the story as a metaphor they both understood the implications of. And then Matthew had the last word, the most pertinent point, that Mary was being a hasty judge of the situation, whereas he wouldn't be.

In the end, I think Mary's husband needs to be capable of having interesting, challenging conversations with her. Matthew was capable of that, which is one of the reasons she was drawn to him. And Charles is capable of the same thing, which is why she's drawn to him as she was to Matthew. Just as JF gave Mary/Matthew crackling dialogue, he's doing the same thing now for Mary/Charles.


I agree with you that Mary is probably thinking about all that she and Matthew went through to be together, and how difficult it was at times when they would fight, but I don't know that that shuts the door on the possibility of her choosing Charles. It's just one more thing for her to take into consideration. If she realizes that her feelings for Charles are as strong as what she felt for Matthew, then even if she and Charles do fight on occasion, as she and Matthew did, their love for each other would see them through it, as Mary/Matthew's love did.


But he's not a bitter person in general. He was bitter in his first scene, but a lot of people have moments of bitterness even though they're not like that all the time.

Plus, how did he bring the worst out of her in that scene? If anything, seeing him hurt brought out her empathy, which I think is a good thing.

We also saw him bring out the best in her during the pigs/eggs stuff last season. She was laughing and smiling, and they worked together very well.


Charles was insulting Tony, but I can't agree that he was insulting Mary. She's the one who made the leap from Charles's mild "you're cleverer than he is" speech to "how dare Charles tell me I'm a stupid housemaid obsessed with sex??" when that's not at all what he said -- but, of course, the fact that she made that leap at all was telling.

I'll also add that Matthew had his moments of condescension, too, so I don't think that would rule Charles out either.

lassothemoon

That was ten years ago. The fact that she's entertaining the idea of not wanting to fight means the situation has changed.

I agree that she wants to be intellectually stimulated but Charles Blake does not have a monopoly on wit. Gillingham does strike me as dull because of the dialogue, but to say that Blake is the only intelligent man interested in her is grossly erroneous. I mean he seemed to suggest that the only reason she should pick him is because he's the only one smart enough for her, and it is insulting to tell a woman she's dumbing herself down for a man if you're the jealous guy whom she didn't pick. Matthew could be petulant too, sure, but he was also a good man. I'm not saying Blake is a bad man but he's certainly more in the gray as far as ethics go, a la Richard Carlisle.

My prediction based on what she said about fear of divorce is that she isn't going to pick either of them this season. In essence, that's why Evelyn didn't marry this whole time--because he had the same concerns from the get go.

You keep comparing him to Matthew but I don't think she wants a relationship that's just like theirs was. She wants to he happy, yes, but I think she's grown a lot since she was married to him, and realizes that she wants to love again and be loved again, and yes of course we're influenced by our past but it'll only work on the basis of love, which is what she wants to be sure of. She wants something that will last and doesn't want to sacrifice that for witty dialogue that's in essence a plot device that's been used before.

Yes, he was, and it's not a flattering character trait. I mean I think what it is is she recognizes that they are very opinionated people, and she doesn't think it'll work if they're constantly clashing-- but at the same time she enjoys their conversations because he is clever and Gillingham in essence is more of the safe choice. I think she's going to realize she doesn't want Gillingham but Blake doesn't care as much as she really thought he did, because I honestly can't see a Matthew/Mary/Pamuk situation happening again with Mabel Lane Fox in the role of Lavinia Swire.

northboundtrain

But she hasn't dismissed Charles, either, even though she knows they'd probably fight a bit. So it's a draw.


What other men are around? Evelyn's gone, and even if he were here, they didn't have particularly witty or philosophical conversations last season. Most of the time they talked, it was about Charles.


He didn't say Mary was dumbing herself down. He said she wouldn't be able to dumb herself down. He was warning of future danger based on what he knows about Tony, not criticizing Mary and accusing her of doing something here in the present.


If Evelyn shows up and sweeps Mary off her feet, I'll be disappointed it wasn't Charles, but that's it.

The thing is, as of right now, the character is off-screen, no one has mentioned him, and Mary has not been shown pining for him. Now, maybe that's because he'll be JF's surprise twist, or maybe that's because he's no longer in the race. I guess we'll have to see.

Sunshinebright

Oh God!Evelyn people! GET OVER THIS!! For heaven's sake. If she doesn't choose either, it won't be because of Napier. Where on earth do people get these ideas from!!??
I do agree that the Gillingham interaction is almost unbelievably dull. I think it's speculation that Mary doesn't want to fight anymore, where did this come from? I'm not saying that she's also ready for someone she would be clashing with, but 'being too tired and wanting a safe choice' is assumption.
Yes, she did mention divorce but I think she was referring more to compatibility and knowing for sure that she loves that person, not because of mere disagreements.
For me her motivations for going through with this are head-scratching. She is acting like the 'over-heated housewife' she was talking about and I'm wondering why? why?
Was this an issue with her first husband? Why is this suddenly an issue with her? Are we led to believe that she thinks this is all what holds a marriage together? I really did not get this plot.

lassothemoon

Wasn't she trying to dismiss him but he got up and walked away?

They've written letters and have been friends for longer than Blake has been in existence. If you're suggesting they haven't had at least one witty or stimulating conversation in that span of time then I'd say that's a narrow view of friendship in general. And they're working the same job if you're talking about book smarts too, so it's not like he's astoundingly brilliant or anything.

No, he's not around at the moment, but . And they were talking about Blake because he was kind of being rude and condescending at the time, so nothing new there. We don't know the circumstances of why he isn't here either, so you may rule him out personally but it's not the be all end all.

Is she pining for Blake? No, and I honestly don't see what pining has to do with anything. The fact of the matter is she had her doubts about both him and Gillingham, doubts that ring familiar because one of the things that stood out about Evelyn is how concerned he was about the same thing.

I don't think he's a bad person, and last episode has altered my view of him slightly, but I'm not convinced that he's good for her or that she thinks he's good for her either--because, to put it more politely yes compatibility is one of her chief concerns, but arguments can stem from not being compatible. And at this stage, she doesn't view herself and Blake as compatible. If she did, she would have made a different choice a long time ago.

I'm not saying he's completely without potential either, but he's way too morally ambiguous for me to like him in the sense I think he'd be a good match.

HarshBench

Ship and let ship, I say. It's harmless.

I don't see Evelyn on the horizon now but hey, you never know. They can dream.

lassothemoon

I daresay we've more than dreams behind us, but it is harmless. If Charles is indeed the chosen one it shouldn't bother you XD

Sunshinebright

No it doesn't bother me. It's not based on any reality.

carrie.suze

Aside from the Mary/Tony/Charles triangle, which I'll leave alone here, I think it's being covered pretty well, from both sides.

I thought the Baxter and Moseley scenes were very nicely played, and he obviously wants to understand why she did what she did, and put the missing pieces together, because he doesn't want to believe she's all bad, I hope Thomas doesn't put the boot in with these two, although I'd put nothing past him, as someone has said, if he wants to be liked he should try not being such an arsehole to everyone. I agree with Claire, the actor playing Moseley is very affective in both the comedy and drama scenes.

Richard E Grant looked right at home in Downton, and how funny Robert thinks he's more interested in Isis, than his wife, talk about being devoted to his doggy. after last week's episode, it's a close run thing between Cora and Isis.

Edith's playing a dangerous game, I don't think Mrs Drewe will put up with her visits much longer, it's understandable from her point of view, I wonder how long it'll be before she starts to get wise.

Didn't care about Jimmy leaving either, he could have taken Sarah with him, she could talk the ear off him instead of Tom, I hope he discovers his brain where she's concerned.

Trouble brewing for Bates and Anna it looks like, but nothing new there.

Just made me laugh thinking of Mary and Gillingham in the throes of passion, glad I didn't have to witness it.

I hope Rose will be given something more to do than getting excited over the 'wireless' although it must have been an amazing thrill to hear that for the first time back then, hard to appreciate how much now.

JoJoF92

"And tell your friend Bricker to stop flirting with Isis!" I lost it there the dog being Robert's biggest concern yet again, and he's completely blind to what's up with Cora

carrie.suze

Best line in the episode. He'll get a shock when he finds out Bricker isn't interested in Isis.

lassothemoon

Technically none of this is based on reality, as it's a tv show--meaning Charles isn't a real person--so I'm not worked up about it. I happen to think she won't choose either of them if it's taken her two+ years to realize that she doesn't like one better than the other.

I agree, the Baxter and Molesley scenes were really well done.

I don't think we've seen the last of Jimmy...did no one notice he was crying as the wagon drove away?

HarshBench

I like the idea of Evelyn because it would have a nice, Austenesque literary symmetry to it: the guy she ignored for Pamuk in S1, ignored for Blake in S4.....the true friend to whose charms she was blind. From that perspective, it would make sense and be nice. And since IMO she doesn't have amazing chemistry with either Blake or Tony anyway and neither seems like a soul mate? Why not go for the classic ending?

Andorra

I agree with those who predict Mary will choser neither of the two dark-haired suitors. I don't think JF lost his ability to create romantic couples that will get a large audience behind it and neither Mary/Tony nor Mary/Charles seem to work so far.

There are some shippers, but the big part of the audience is just "meh" about all of them and I think it is intentional.

The big question is what will happen with Mary then? Evelyn is an option, but I'm not sure about him either.

Luckily I don't care much . But even though I was never a Mary/Matthew shipper, it was clear to me and to 90% of the audience that Mary and Matthew were going to get married. I really doubt there were many people who said "oh she should marry Richard Carlisle" instead, or who truly shipped Lavinia with Matthew.

Now with Tony or Blake it doesn't seem like that at all. None of them is really convincing and I can't really see Mary in love with either of them. A bit flattered by Charles' attention and a bit flustered by Tony, but that is it. There's no real passion or connection in either relationship for me which makes me think neither of them will be endgame.

It's a mystery to me who will, but I'm content with leaning back and waiting for the story to unfold.