HarshBench

I agree. People seem to forget that until just a few decades ago young couples didn't practice rigorous family planning until they were done having babies, if even then. In my neighborhood there were tons of big families and "Irish Twins", my sisters included. And honestly, her quick pregnancy is totally realistic. They're young, presumably fertile newlyweds and probably "trying" all the time. And as progressive as they are, they are not so worldly as to seek out birth control.

I don't read much fanfic so I didn't know about the pregnancy obsession. A few years ago I was pretty addicted to FNL Matt/Julie fanfic but pregnancy didn't much figure into it.

I also agree that even a protofeminist like Sybil would probably shoulder much of the housework, and that's perfectly okay. Margaret Thatcher knew the price of milk. She's changing the world enough as it is. But ever since Tom brought Sybil her lunch I have secretly hoped that she would become a doctor and he would write from home and help with the babies.

ScarletCourt

I actually did some research into the history and use of condoms for my FF and you'd be surprised the lengths the condom manufacturers and distributors went to advertise their product in the late 19th and early 20th century including sending parents who put a birth notice in the paper "free" samples. Also a survey done in that era, had 45% of respondents using condoms for birth control purposes. As well, condoms were much more prevalent in England than in Ireland. England didn't have the Comstock laws of the US and the English didn't take the Indecent Advertisement Acts nearly as seriously as the Irish. So it was much more readily available.

As for equality in the home now, you'd be surprised to find that in surveys, most households typically have a 70/30 split between wife and husband and that's regardless of whether the wife makes less, equal or more than the husband. I work in hi-tech and most of my female co-workers who often earn more than their husbands still do the majority of the household work. So I'd be very surprised if Sybil did not most, but at the same time, I can't imagine Tom not doing a significant amount of it (for that time).

heart devoured

Interesting discussion you've been having here.

Patano

As for the snarky comments, for some people nowadays having a baby is one of the most horrible things that may happen to them, and they often (simplistically) connect being a mother with loss of freedom and aspirations. It is not only offensive, but also sad. This is actually common in all the fandoms – when a female character gets pregnant, there are people who automatically claim that now her character will be ruined.

I think Sybil is a person who has feminist leanings, but at the same time will enjoy being wife and mother. It is stereotypical and simplistic to think that a person with feminist views should not want to have a family at an early age. Similarly, many people also automatically assumed before s2 that S/T would sleep together before marriage or live together without marriage - that just because they are both progressive in some spheres, so they have to be progressive in all the other too. But these two characters are more complex than that, and are actually quite traditional when it comes to certain things. If Sybil didn’t want marriage and children (who are a direct result of marriage), she wouldn’t have got married. I think that she’ll also very much enjoy the fact that she can bring up her own child/ren herself (with her husband’s help, of course) and not delegate this task to nannies and governesses. Similarly, I think she’ll enjoy household duties (look how she enjoyed cooking in s2), doing something on her own instead of being treated as an incapable doll for whom everything is done and who only needs to look and behave well at the dining table. Those were different times. For an aristocrat like Sybil performing these household tasks and taking care of the baby herself will actually show how independent and unorthodox she is. What’s more, she has a husband who, I’m sure, will assist her in many of the tasks as well as in bringing up children. He already had nothing against her working after their marriage even though at that time most of the men were ashamed to have a working wife if they were themselves capable of earning money (it looked like they weren’t fulfilling their duty to support their family appropriately). S/T do not care much what others think, so I can see them being unorthodox when it comes to dividing household duties (to some extent though - it’s early 20th century after all).

I agree with baileycat and HarshBench that S/T would not have sought out birth control even if they had stayed in England. It could be more readily available there than in Ireland, but it still wasn’t treated in the same way as it is today. I suppose that, at that time, a couple started to seek out some measures only if there was some really serious reason for it like pregnancy being dangerous for woman’s health or them already having a number of children and not being able to afford one more. A young, healthy, married couple without children and not in a difficult financial situation most likely didn't see a reason for using it and, as baileycat put it, decided to "let nature take its course".

And honestly, why do we talk about S/T’s pregnancy as if it was something that should have been prevented? They’re both adults at a perfectly appropriate age, especially at that time (my great-grandmothers got pregnant at 19-20. My grandmother got pregnant at 20, during her first year of marriage - this was simply a standard. Most of my friends at school had mothers who gave birth to them at 20-21; mine gave birth to me at 27, and I already felt like an exception with a mother older than most of the other mothers), they're married, Tom has a decent job, Sybil can work too, and while she will have to take a break for some time after the baby is born, I think that she’ll still be able to continue her nursing later if she decides to (I suppose that Tom can arrange to work at home and take care of the baby while she has a shift at the hospital).

I think that they are both happy with this baby development. And that both of them will be awesome parents .

HarshBench

Exactly. Tom knows how to take care of himself. He tended to eat in the house, but I imagine he is perfectly capable of preparing a basic meal and keeping his room tidy. He probably can even sew on a button or darn socks. My father grew up in a modest home and he can sew, cook and garden with the best of them. It's a far cry from Robert who cannot even dress himself. That still boggles my mind.

I would so love to see, in S3, a little scene of them getting ready in the morning: making tea, him tying her nurse's apron and her straightening his tie. Sigh.

It's the little things that make up a social revolution.

ScarletCourt

I've spent a lot of time thinking of the reasons why Sybil married Tom (aside from the obvious that she loved him). Can't be helped if I'm trying to write a fanfic and have to understand motivations before I can put words on paper.

I mean Sybil could have had children with any peer and even looked after them if she wanted to. I mean if Princess Alice (second daughter of Queen Victoria who married a Grand Duke) could look after her own children to the point of breastfeeding them, surely Sybil Crawley can it with a peer. If she wanted to do look after a household, she could have married an army officer or a banker or a lawyer or a doctor such as someone in Isobel's position and even though she might have had a servant or two, she still could have done what she wanted to do wrt the household.

However, she married Tom. By marrying him, the one thing she could do that she couldn't with the others was to hold a job. Now remember that at the time, a lot of professions had something called a marriage bar, where a woman had to quit her job when she married or when she became pregnant and started showing. In fact my mother-in-law encountered it in Canada when she got pregnant while working at a bank in the sixties. She was asked to leave when she started to show.

While I don't know whether there was a marriage bar for nurses, most nurses worked incredibly long hours for a pittance of pay in Ireland in 1919 (according to a book called Ireland within the Union 1800-1921 on pg 225). Their wages were between £30-£40/year and at hospitals they were expected to work as hard on Sundays as any other day and district nurses are always on call. As private nurses, they were expected to work all day and all night. Neither situations work well with children. They must have known that going in and as such may (not must ) have considered the possibility of birth control which is nearly impossible to get in Ireland.

OK say that they don't choose to consider birth control at all. He's Catholic after all. She's in the prime of her child bearing years and if she has a child every year for the next five-ten years, there's no way she could work or establish a career in nursing until she and the children are much older.

Also, the concept of working from home occasionally is something that is fairly new. Tom either worked from home (like a novelist) or he worked at the office (most white collar jobs). I don't think Tom can just decide he needs to work from home one day because Sybil has a shift. Most employers wouldn't go for that in the 1920s. Heck, some employers won't go for it now.

Personally, I expect that Tom knows more about housekeeping than Sybil when they first marry and he can and will take care of himself. However, over time, it can shift more to Sybil's side, esp if she's home looking after the children when they are young.

HarshBench

Does Sybil have any idea what kind of money nurses make? I think she was a volunteer during the War. She may be in for a nasty shock -not because of the hours but because of the pay. And I have always suspected that she might lose her job once she starts to show.

You've said that Tom will want very much to prove that he can provide for her. I agree. I just hope he doesn't compromise himself to do so.

ScarletCourt

Once she realized her feelings for Tom just before the end of the war, she may have asked her nursing friends at the hospital about wages for nurses. Certainly, she could have asked Isobel if she wanted to know.

L i N d $ @ y

If that was even possible, they would have tons of children already.

baileycat

She'd definitely lose her job, if she actually managed to get one during this time. But back then it was expected so I don't think she'd be too upset.

As for the money they'd make, I think she'd go out of her way to just make do. She just strikes me as someone who can adjust no matter what the financial circumstances and hardships are. She's determined to show everyone she's not the spoiled rich girl people automatically assumed she would be. And she'd want to make sure Tom doesn't feel like this chosen life is unbearable for her.

Patano

But let’s not forget that Tom has this advantage over a peer or a banker that he is the man she loves . He offers her both love and a high degree of freedom and opportunity to be useful in her household, and what’s more, will treat her and support her as his equal, which I don’t think most of the bankers and especially a peer (or most of the men, actually) would have offered her at that time.


I think that one child should not pose a problem if she wants to continue working; we don’t know how Tom’s job looks like, maybe he’ll be commissioned to write some political book? He still does not work all the time, of course, so there’ll be times where they could arrange something. There’s also Grandma Branson and maybe some aunts. However, having more children may be a problem. I’m not speaking here of this extreme case of 10 children , but a "normal" family of 2-3 children. It’s impossible to imagine the Bransons waiting with extending their family till Sybil’s retirement (I think that they’ll want to have more kids than one). On one hand it seems like a difficult thing to arrange, but on the other hand who can make such thing work if not these two? BTW, were there at that time some options to work part-time?

heart devoured

Everybody are allowed to have their own opinions. I don't see how you should be offended or sad if someone feels that way. Unless they judge you and your personal decisions based on their views then their opinions shouldn't be a problem to you either. Quite frankly I feel offended that you claim some people's reasons not to have children offensive and sad. We don't have an obligation to breed and we have the right to reason our not-breeding however we like.

What comes to this S/T pregnancy discussion... I personally think (And we can't really know now can we? After all these are fictional people and I highly doubt JF/the writers thought through this baby storyline as far as people on this board have.) they didn't even think about birth control. Birth control might've been there, but it certainly wasn't a notable option for most people, the least for a young, healthy and childless married couple. Sybil had some progressive and feminist views sure, but what was progressive then is not progressive now. She was somewhat progressive for her time. Either they thought or didn't thought the possibility of children and what that would change, but I think Sybil is happy to have a baby either way. And if she doesn't try to work when the baby is born then she'll just adapt to that situation and certainly not feel disappointed that she didn't have that free life she wanted. It's the freedom she wanted, but she is just "working" little differently ie. the work being taking care of her child/ren.

confessor_meggy

ok, now it's your fault if I get disappointed when/if they don't show a scene like this!

I don't think there's a marriage bar to nurses, 'cause T/S seems to plan things way ahead, so either ther was a marriage bar and F didn't know about it or there wasn't...
Also, it's a little hard for me to guess what will happen to Sybil's job after the baby news, especially since I'm not so sure if they'll stay in ireland or if they'll come back to live in England, guess it will depend on Tom's job, whether as a politician or a writer, or a political writer

HarshBench

I think she only meant that it's sad some people think a pregnancy/baby will "ruin" Sybil. Kids are not for everyone but probably (hopefully) she will see it as a blessing?

Funny but we've never seen the Crawley girls talk about having babies. Bates mentioned kids to Anna, and Cora told Robert that if he wanted grandchildren he had better be supportive of Mary's marriage. LOL. I'm sure Robert wanted grandchildren but never in a million years thought the first one would be fathered by the Socialist chauffeur!

But that's why I just don't know how Sybil will feel about being pregnant. We've just never seen her discuss it or confront it at all. When she and Tom were debating the drawbacks of their marriage they never mentioned how/whether their kids would be accepted.

So what I tend to believe is that, while Sybil obviously knew how babies are made, she didn't think much about when or whether she would get pregnant. I bet she was kind of stunned - even dismayed-at first but soon felt excited at the prospect. Or maybe I've just read too many fics!

Patano

Excuse me? I haven't said anywhere that all people are obliged to have children. You completely misunderstood me. I was just talking about people who are actually snarky about other people having children while basing it on a simplistic view that children=end of life and career, young mother=unhappy, unsatisfied person without any aspirations. If they don't want to have children, it's ok with me, but I don't like the fact that they are snarky towards people and fictional characters with different views, and that they spread the stereotypical, often false image. That's all.

But I completely agree with the second part of your post .

I also think that Sybil is happy with her pregnancy because after Cora read that later she was thrilled. I know that she wants to be a grandmother very much, but I don't think that she would have been so pleased if she had sensed some dissatisfaction connected with the news in the letter. Mothers can sense such things.

IMO Sybil actually thought about pregnancy beforehand - she's not stupid and was surely aware what marriage entails (and we know that she was making her decision to accept Tom's proposal for a long time.) She considered a lot of things, but not this, so I suppose that she simply doesn't see pregnancy as a problem.

She likes taking care of other people (nursing!) and enjoys being busy and useful, so I really think that she sees children as a blessing. I also agree with the view that she shall see children as another type of "work". At the same time, however, this does not of course mean that she'll for sure abandon her nursing.