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Old 04-24-2012, 11:42 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Patano (View Post)
Excuse me? I haven't said anywhere that all people are obliged to have children. You completely misunderstood me.
I didn't say you said people are obliged to have children, I was just commenting that someone's personal reasons should not be ridiculed. You said some people connect being a mother with loss of freedom and that that is offensive and sad. I don't see you saying the snarky comments are offensive and sad which is what you actually meant? While I don't think quite so black and white (that being a mother would mean total loss of freedom or it would mean that to everyone) and I agree about the snarky comments, those can still be on a personal level valid reasons not to have children and should not be called offensive and sad.

But you probably didn't mean it to come off like that and I probably misinterpreted so let's not start a fight about this. Plus we are off topic.

PS. I disagree that people shouldn't be snarky towards fictional characters. I think that's fully acceptable. Should not be hurting any real people.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:06 PM
  #182
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I'm honestly sorry if you feel offended, then, but believe me it was not my intention . I accept the view that people may not want children because they are afraid of losing their freedom, but many just blow it out of the proportion and start claiming that children are in general a big obstacle to freedom and fulfillment in life (and sometimes start to ridicule people who find fulfillment in having families). Maybe I simply worded my thoughts badly and chaotically and it came off like that. Anyway, I do not, for sure, intend to start any fight . I only hope that you'll no longer be offended by my post. Let's just think about it as a misunderstanding and forget about it .


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Originally Posted by eleonor
PS. I disagree that people shouldn't be snarky towards fictional characters. I think that's fully acceptable. Should not be hurting any real people.
I totally accept your view here, but I think people overdo it a bit nowadays, often without any reason . The less hate, the better even when it comes to fictional people .

Last edited by Patano; 04-24-2012 at 12:49 PM
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:23 PM
  #183
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I'm not offended anymore and I believe you didn't mean it like that. That was just the way it looked to me and made me feel. So misunderstanding, no hard feelings and friends again.

And I do agree with that: less hate the better. I try to remember that and live by it as much as I can even if I don't always succeed.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:57 PM
  #184
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I'm afraid I started this with my "snarky comments" comment.

The truth is I was honestly shocked when I read on another forum a whole string of posts stating that Sybil's pregnancy "ruined" her and she would never have adventures again. That's just patently untrue. All sorts of very important high-profile women have families. Sure, it's a challenge but it's eminently doable. And family life presents its own adventures. That's all I meant.

I guess it's true that if Cora seemed happy then the tone of the letter was probably positive. I don't mean to sound corny, but when you're young and in love the idea of having a baby with your partner can be incredibly happy-making.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:44 PM
  #185
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But let’s not forget that Tom has this advantage over a peer or a banker that he is the man she loves . He offers her both love and a high degree of freedom and opportunity to be useful in her household, and what’s more, will treat her and support her as his equal, which I don’t think most of the bankers and especially a peer (or most of the men, actually) would have offered her at that time.
Absolutely, she loves Tom and he gives her freedom, but what I was trying to say (and it may have been me who was not clear) was that there could be peers (like Princess Alice's husband) who would allow her to look after her children and there could be upper-middle class bankers, etc, who could let her run a household. Surely Sybil wouldn't marry a man who wouldn't let her have her freedom. that would be unSybil-like. My specific point was that someone in Tom's social class would more likely allow her to work though Pierre Curie allowed Marie to work in the laboratory and win a nobel prize and they had two daughters seven years apart.

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I think that one child should not pose a problem if she wants to continue working; we don’t know how Tom’s job looks like, maybe he’ll be commissioned to write some political book? He still does not work all the time, of course, so there’ll be times where they could arrange something. There’s also Grandma Branson and maybe some aunts. However, having more children may be a problem. I’m not speaking here of this extreme case of 10 children , but a "normal" family of 2-3 children. It’s impossible to imagine the Bransons waiting with extending their family till Sybil’s retirement (I think that they’ll want to have more kids than one). On one hand it seems like a difficult thing to arrange, but on the other hand who can make such thing work if not these two? BTW, were there at that time some options to work part-time?
What was normal for Irish families at the time was 4+ children (this is from a book called The Slow Failure: Population Decline And Independent Ireland, 1922-1973), if you got married that is. In a lot of families at the time they focused their resources to get one child married off and that child ended up having the large family. Meanwhile the other children ended up not marrying and not producing children.

If you looked, I'm sure there were part time work options, but like today most probably didn't pay very well and likely not in nursing.

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Originally Posted by HarshBench (View Post)
The truth is I was honestly shocked when I read on another forum a whole string of posts stating that Sybil's pregnancy "ruined" her and she would never have adventures again. That's just patently untrue. All sorts of very important high-profile women have families. Sure, it's a challenge but it's eminently doable. And family life presents its own adventures. That's all I meant.
Where is this lovely forum? As for high profile women, I think I provided an example above.
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Old 04-24-2012, 05:05 PM
  #186
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I was going to weigh in on the snarky discussion, but, as all parties seemed to have resolved this, more's the better and I will stay out of it.

Good on all you concerned, BTW, for your handling of said discussion.

I have an idea to consider, if you wish. It has occurred to me that Sybil may not really be set on nursing as a career...it was just a way to feel useful during WWI and something she felt she could easily continue afterwards.
Could it be that it is the "wanting to be useful" as opposed to the "nursing" angle that Sybil would be able to follow, children or not. What would be avenues that she could pursue (any and all with Tom's support, I have to assume) that would fulfill her in that way?
Thoughts???????
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:32 PM
  #187
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Sybil's biggest barrier in terms of finding other avenues of useful, good paying work is her lack of education. If you recall, governesses are only good for learning French and how to curtsey and the Granthams never sent their children to school. So while she's bright and uses her mind to consider and make carefully considered decisions, if she wants to not just work in a factory, she will need to go and further her education first. If that's the case, can she and Tom afford for her to a) not look after the child and have to pay someone else to do so and b) can she afford the time to do the learning necessary to bring her to a point where she could consider for example going to medical school to become a doctor? Even if she wants to be a teacher, she will need to bring her skills up to par in order to learn to teach a class.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:53 AM
  #188
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Sybil's biggest barrier in terms of finding other avenues of useful, good paying work is her lack of education. If you recall, governesses are only good for learning French and how to curtsey and the Granthams never sent their children to school. So while she's bright and uses her mind to consider and make carefully considered decisions, if she wants to not just work in a factory, she will need to go and further her education first. If that's the case, can she and Tom afford for her to a) not look after the child and have to pay someone else to do so and b) can she afford the time to do the learning necessary to bring her to a point where she could consider for example going to medical school to become a doctor? Even if she wants to be a teacher, she will need to bring her skills up to par in order to learn to teach a class.
I think in 1920, once you become a mom, that is your job. You're number one priority. And I don't see Sybil going out of her way to search for a job beyond what she's already capable of doing or further her education. And frankly, I don't really see her being that upset about it. As most women, even the most forward thinking, progressive women back then didn't have an issue with being a homemaker. And Tom will provide as best as he can for the both of them. He'll make sure of it. And even though they'd refuse financial assistance from the Crawley family (beyond what they've already provided for her dowry), I bet you anything, they'd take advantage of certain 'connections' Violet or whomever might throw their way to ensure their sustainability. They won't be destitute.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:21 AM
  #189
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Interesting little statistic:1920 was the biggest birth year on record in the UK. Proportionately speaking, not even the post-WWII Boom beat it. The birth rate fell sharply in the decade that followed, but in 1920 the Bransons were in good company.

I could see Sybil wanting to stay involved/useful outside the home even if it doesn't mean holding a job. Or she might be one of those writers' wives who help with typing and editing. But I think you're right:she won't be opposed to being a homemaker.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:45 AM
  #190
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Oh for sure, she'd be quite active in the community and volunteering. I don't think that part of her would change, even with children in the picture. That's just a part of her unselfish nature.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:55 AM
  #191
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Hi, could I be added to the supporters list? .

I've just marathoned the whole of DA in the last week & these two are my OTP for the show. . Loved their SL so far & I'm ridiculously excited for what could be to come

The OP is beautiful btw!
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:05 PM
  #192
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Oh for sure, she'd be quite active in the community and volunteering. I don't think that part of her would change, even with children in the picture. That's just a part of her unselfish nature.
I understand what you're saying, but I think the fact that she is a very interested person ensures that she will involve herself in charitable and civic causes if she chooses not to work after the children come. Also, however unselfish her actions appear to us, she actually gets a lot out of being in the mix and being of use to others.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:30 PM
  #193
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Hello DiamondDreaming Nice to see a new member! The whole of DA in one week - wow, but this show is addictive, so I totally understand it

I’ve also been thinking about Sybil becoming a political activist. Yes, it wouldn’t be paid, but let’s face it, as a woman she did not have much of a chance to contribute to household budget at that time. She decided to find a job after her marriage because she likes having something to do, not because of financial reasons. I think that S/T are both aware and accept the fact that it is Tom who will provide for their family; no matter how progressive they are, there were some obstacles that were insurmountable at that time, and I’m afraid that women’s low earnings were one of them. Money, however, is not of much importance for them here, I think – it is an idea behind it. Hence, I do not think that Sybil would mind unpaid work. What is important for her is to do something useful and contribute to the change concerning women’s position in society. Another advantage of such work would be of course more flexible hours, which are so important for women with families.

Last edited by Patano; 04-25-2012 at 12:41 PM
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:48 PM
  #194
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Hello DiamondDreaming Nice to see a new member! The whole of DA in one week - wow, but this show is addictive, so I totally understand it
Thanks for the welcome! Yep, I tried to make it last longer than a week but it just wasn't going to happen, too addictive , especially when I was so excited to see what was next for these two .

I'm going to go back and read through all of the discussion in here, it seems like there has been some rather insightful debate !
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:52 PM
  #195
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Welcome Nic!

And yes to Sybil being politically active! One of the best attributes that I admire her for.
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