[~AnastasiaGrey~]

Originally Posted by John S (View Post) Bay and Travis worked PERFECTLY in China. Why isn't it working in Kansas? Supposedly, Bay has hurt every man that she has had a relationship with going all the way back to Liam. Why?

I think they were a rebound relationship theye camen together when they were both lonely

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by John S (View Post) Bay and Travis worked PERFECTLY in China. Why isn't it working in Kansas?

The reason Bay & Travis were able to work so well in China is because Bay was able to reinvent herself there. In China, Bay did not have to live up to the expectations of all of the people who know her, including herself. She could date someone beneath her social status, and it did not matter. She was free to be whomever she wanted to be.

My guess is that, in Kansas City, Bay has expectations to meet.

It is sad that class differences still make a difference. I don't think that they should, but I also think that, for some reason, they do, and Bay seems to have succumbed to them. They are difficult to escape, especially when surrounded by the people who have known you since birth.

Travis is helped by his newfound clout on the baseball team and the fact he is a college student. He has a bright future. But Travis cannot escape the fact that he did not have the same raising as someone like Bay, Toby, Emmett, or even Daphne. Social status is not solely about money or future potential. Those four young people, including Daphne, were raised in homes filled with love and with parents who put them first. That gives them an edge. Travis was not raised that way. It makes him different.

In China, Bay can put aside those differences and appreciate Travis for who he is now. Back in Kansas City, surrounded by her family and friends, Bay will likely feel the pressure to date someone more like herself, someone who was raised with love and support, someone who never needed to toughen up to survive.

Even if Bay's family and friends welcome Travis with open arms, I believe Bay will feel a self-imposed pressure to conform to her own expectations, as long as she is in Kansas City.

I haven't thought much about this topic until right now, but it seems as though at least three different areas exist: natural ability (intelligence/athletic prowess), money, and family love/support. Travis only has his athletic ability going for him. He even struggles in school.

Ty didn't have love and support from his parents, but he did have it from a grandmother and from his close-knit neighborhood. He also was obviously intelligent and athletic, even if he did not come from a family with much money. Ty did not have to be tough in the ways that Travis has had to be tough, so Ty was more like Bay.

Emmett isn't athletic, but he does well in school and has family support.

Could Bay stay with Travis in Kansas City? Sure, she could. I just think Travis's childhood is a strike against him in K.C., whereas in China, it was almost as though his childhood didn't exist. I think that's why things aren't working for Bay and Travis in Kansas City.

Travis could be anyone Bay wanted him to be in China. Whereas in Kansas City, everyone knows who Travis is.

Originally Posted by John S (View Post) Supposedly, Bay has hurt every man that she has had a relationship with going all the way back to Liam. Why?

I don't think Bay and Liam cared very deeply about each other, so I don't think she hurt him (or vice versa).

And I don't think Ty and Noah gave Bay a chance to hurt them. Both men were too guarded.

Emmett hurt Bay before she hurt him.

Bay hurt Alex and Tank. Luckily, Alex recovered quickly. He did not give too much of himself away. Tank truly got hurt. As he said, when we first met him, he knew nothing about love. Bay taught him a lot.

I cannot decide if Travis will be hurt by Bay or not. I think it will sting, if she betrays him. But I don't think Travis has made himself as vulnerable to Bay as Tank did. I believe Travis is tougher than Tank, in some important ways.

It will be interesting to see how Travis deals with what is coming in his relationship with Bay. He has been so hurt by his family, from early childhood. I am not sure if that will make him more or less vulnerable to the pain that Bay may inflict on him. My guess, though, is that it will make him less vulnerable. Travis sure seemed to recover quickly from his breakup with Mary Beth. It appeared to be something that stung his pride, but I did not have the feeling that he experienced any deep longing for Mary Beth. In the last episode, Travis seemed to have no feeling at all for her.

My prediction for future episodes is that Travis will experience far more pain from his relationship with his mother than he will from his relationship with Bay. I am looking forward to finding out if I am right about that.

[John S]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) The reason Bay & Travis were able to work so well in China is because Bay was able to reinvent herself there. In China, Bay did not have to live up to the expectations of all of the people who know her, including herself. She could date someone beneath her social status, and it did not matter. She was free to be whomever she wanted to be. My guess is that, in Kansas City, Bay has expectations to meet. It is sad that class differences still make a difference. I don't think that they should, but I also think that, for some reason, they do, and Bay seems to have succumbed to them. They are difficult to escape, especially when surrounded by the people who have known you since birth. Travis is helped by his newfound clout on the baseball team and the fact he is a college student. He has a bright future. But Travis cannot escape the fact that he did not have the same raising as someone like Bay, Toby, Emmett, or even Daphne. Social status is not solely about money or future potential. Those four young people, including Daphne, were raised in homes filled with love and with parents who put them first. That gives them an edge. Travis was not raised that way. It makes him different. In China, Bay can put aside those differences and appreciate Travis for who he is now. Back in Kansas City, surrounded by her family and friends, Bay will likely feel the pressure to date someone more like herself, someone who was raised with love and support, someone who never needed to toughen up to survive. Even if Bay's family and friends welcome Travis with open arms, I believe Bay will feel a self-imposed pressure to conform to her own expectations, as long as she is in Kansas City. I haven't thought much about this topic until right now, but it seems as though at least three different areas exist: natural ability (intelligence/athletic prowess), money, and family love/support. Travis only has his athletic ability going for him. He even struggles in school. Ty didn't have love and support from his parents, but he did have it from a grandmother and from his close-knit neighborhood. He also was obviously intelligent and athletic, even if he did not come from a family with much money. Ty did not have to be tough in the ways that Travis has had to be tough, so Ty was more like Bay. Emmett isn't athletic, but he does well in school and has family support. Could Bay stay with Travis in Kansas City? Sure, she could. I just think Travis's childhood is a strike against him in K.C., whereas in China, it was almost as though his childhood didn't exist. I think that's why things aren't working for Bay and Travis in Kansas City. Travis could be anyone Bay wanted him to be in China. Whereas in Kansas City, everyone knows who Travis is. I don't think Bay and Liam cared very deeply about each other, so I don't think she hurt him (or vice versa). And I don't think Ty and Noah gave Bay a chance to hurt them. Both men were too guarded. Emmett hurt Bay before she hurt him. Bay hurt Alex and Tank. Luckily, Alex recovered quickly. He did not give too much of himself away. Tank truly got hurt. As he said, when we first met him, he knew nothing about love. Bay taught him a lot. I cannot decide if Travis will be hurt by Bay or not. I think it will sting, if she betrays him. But I don't think Travis has made himself as vulnerable to Bay as Tank did. I believe Travis is tougher than Tank, in some important ways. It will be interesting to see how Travis deals with what is coming in his relationship with Bay. He has been so hurt by his family, from early childhood. I am not sure if that will make him more or less vulnerable to the pain that Bay may inflict on him. My guess, though, is that it will make him less vulnerable. Travis sure seemed to recover quickly from his breakup with Mary Beth. It appeared to be something that stung his pride, but I did not have the feeling that he experienced any deep longing for Mary Beth. In the last episode, Travis seemed to have no feeling at all for her. My prediction for future episodes is that Travis will experience far more pain from his relationship with his mother than he will from his relationship with Bay. I am looking forward to finding out if I am right about that.

You said that Ty and Noah never gave Bay a chance to hurt them and that Emmett hurt Bay before she could hurt him. Do you believe that she would have hurt them - and if so, why?

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by John S (View Post) You said that Ty and Noah never gave Bay a chance to hurt them and that Emmett hurt Bay before she could hurt him. Do you believe that she would have hurt them - and if so, why?

YES! I do believe Bay would have hurt all three men, because she does not have a solid understanding of loyalty to a partner.

It's tempting to say that Bay only lost her understanding of loyalty, once Emmett cheated on her and broke her heart. After that experience, it is true that Bay appears to have regressed even further, into someone who has little concept of allegiance. But now, I believe it is something Bay never had.

If I look back to Bay's insistence that Daphne break up with Liam at the fundraiser, followed by her decision to sneak away with Ty moments later, that sequence of events showcases Bay's lack of ethics.

To follow up that injustice by going after Emmett, too, someone Daphne expressly told Bay is her best friend, only served to rub salt in the wound. Bay knew that Daphne felt possessive of both of these men, and Bay had no business crossing that line. But boundaries do not apply to Bay.

That's like when Emmett expressly told Bay to stay out of the battle between his parents, and she secretly went to talk to both of them, after promising not to do so. That was a HUGE violation of trust between two partners.

Bay used both Alex and Travis to help her friend Zarra make bail. In the end, Bay took money from Simone, someone she held in contempt, to avoid getting Travis fired.

Noah could see the writing on the wall. He knew Bay was going to chew him up and spit him out, if he had given his heart to her. Bay's heart belonged squarely with Emmett. Noah never gave Bay a chance to break his heart.

Ty realized the same, as he was sitting at Toby and Nikki's wedding rehearsal dinner, and he got himself out of his relationship with Bay in the nick of time. Bay had already dumped Ty (for Emmett) the first time he went to war. Ty didn't want to fall victim to the same fate twice, and he would have. So Ty saved himself the only way he knew how.

Bay completely and utterly destroyed Tank's heart for Emmett. There's not much more that can be said about that relationship.

Then, Bay's mistrust and ultimate disloyalty to Emmett caused her to break Emmett's heart time and again, too. Bay kept secrets from Emmett. She lied to Emmett. She manipulated Emmett. Bay put others before Emmett, even though he was her partner. She broke promises to Emmett. Bay abandoned Emmett, when he needed her the most.

Then, when things became rocky between Bay and Emmett, Bay chose to lean on her ex-boyfriend Tank. That decision was a huge breach of trust.

I thought Bay would have learned a lesson about boundaries and loyalty after her experience with Tank. Bay's night with Tank hurt everyone. It ripped apart her relationship with Emmett.

But it's obvious by the end of the last episode that Bay is going to keep making the same mistakes she has been making all along. Once again, Bay is lying to a current partner, so she can sneak off to be intimate with an ex-partner.

Bay appears to have deep-seated issues with intimacy. She appears incapable of trusting anyone with whom she shares a partnership, opting to trust others and betray her partners instead.

I still remember Bay's words to her dad, after she cost him the head coach position at UMKC. She said, "You were right, Dad. I should have been watching your back." Bay is never watching the back of those whom she should. Instead, Bay is taking care of the people to whom she actually owes no loyalty at the moment. It makes little sense to me. Bay doesn't understand loyalty or boundaries. She is always playing with fire and getting burned.

In the last episode, I was sorry to see Bay lie to Travis and run off to her ex-boyfriend Emmett. (And that statement is coming from someone who ships Bay & Emmett.) I hope Emmett seduces Bay into having sex with him tomorrow night, so Bay can feel that same sense of guilt she felt when she cheated on Tank, and when she cheated on Emmett. That sounds harsh, but I want Bay to finally learn the lesson. Something has to teach her not to make these poor choices. I really thought Bay's experience with Tank would have taught her that.

It's frustrating to see that Bay hasn't yet learned.

Maybe, if Bay and Emmett have sex tomorrow night, Bay's guilt from that experience will finally get through to Bay. Unless the writers do something to turn this ship around quickly, it appears Bay is destined to never learn from her mistakes. Like an addict, Bay may have to hit rock bottom before she gets help. I hope she does quickly. I want to see Bay succeed.

Bay's decision to lie to Travis last week makes me sad for her character. I didn't think the writers would go there with Bay, but it seems as though they have.

EDITED TO ADD: It's two hours later, and now, I am not sure why I felt so frustrated with Bay, when I wrote this post. Bay did not do anything that every other character hasn't done, too. Why do I expect more from her?

I am not fair to Bay.

Emmett cheated on Bay with Simone, when Bay went to his parents behind his back. Emmett abandoned Bay for Skye, when he felt she cheated on him with Tank. Both of those decisions were disloyal to Bay.

Travis was disloyal to Emmett, when he felt Emmett had hurt Bay, and he was cruel to Mary Beth, after he learned she is now dating Tank.

Tank was disloyal to his dad, when he quit his fraternity, and he was disloyal to his fraternity brothers and fellow football players.

Daphne was disloyal to Bay, when she crawled into Emmett's tent at East West Fest, and when she allowed Bay to take the fall for her crimes, years later.

Regina was disloyal to Bay and Daphne, when she kept the secret about the switch from them. She made it worse by not putting forth much effort to build a relationship with Bay, when she had the chance.

Regina was also disloyal to Angelo, when she pushed him to go away, and later, when she refused to tell him about the switch.

Angelo was disloyal to Regina, when he disappeared time and again.

John and Kathryn have each been disloyal to each other, at various times, in their marriage.

Toby was disloyal to Bay, when he invited Tank to live with him, and when he told Lily about Bay's personal matter with Tank.

Everyone is disloyal. I know that. I am not sure why it bothered me so much that Bay lied to Travis, so he wouldn't spend the night with her in her new apartment, and then, proceeded to text Emmett in hopes of a late-night rendezvous with him.

It just seemed so overtly duplicitous. It was difficult to watch Bay do that, especially when it is the same thing we saw Bay do to both Emmett and to Tank.

Plus, the last time Bay & Emmett got back together, Bay felt guilty about cheating on Tank, and Emmett said to her, "This isn't how it was supposed to happen for us."

I thought both Bay & Emmett would have learned from that experience and from how that poor decision set everything that followed off on the wrong track.

But the Switched at Birth writers seem to be saying that bad decisions like that are a part of life, and we are destined to repeat them over and over again. They are probably right. It's just so sad.

[John S]

So you are saying that Bay is NOT a nice person.
Why - Was it the Kennish house (too much money, bad parenting, etc.), the switch, which was probably harder on her than on Daphne, or some other reason?

Rock bottom MAY result in Bay realizing what a bad person she actually is, with the realization that she needs to get away from Kansas - Bay and Regina driving away.

I STILL see a bad ending for both sisters.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by John S (View Post) So you are saying that Bay is NOT a nice person. Why - Was it the Kennish house (too much money, bad parenting, etc.), the switch, which was probably harder on her than on Daphne, or some other reason? Rock bottom MAY result in Bay realizing what a bad person she actually is, with the realization that she needs to get away from Kansas - Bay and Regina driving away. I STILL see a bad ending for both sisters.

I am saying no human being is a nice person.

Actually, let me correct that. I am saying the Switched at Birth writers may be saying that no human being is a nice person.

Bay included.

I would love for Bay to hit rock bottom and realize how horribly she has treated her partners, especially TRAVIS, in the last scene Tuesday night, when she texts Emmett, and EMMETT, when Bay went off to a dorm party with Tank, after their picnic, and TANK, when Bay went off to rescue Emmett and ended up having sex with him.

But I am not even sure if the writers feel as though Bay has treated her partners horribly. I am completely and totally confused as to what message the Switched at Birth writers want to give to their viewers.

Anymore, it feels as though their entire TV series follows the same premise as their sexual consent storyline:

"Dear Viewers, here's a nice mess of a situation. Talk amongst yourselves and figure out how you feel about it. Sincerely, The Writers"

I don't believe the writers want to say anything at all anymore. These writers don't have a message for viewers. They seem to only want to portray life the way that they see it, and then, allow us to decide what and how we feel about all of it.

The only problem with that goal is that I do not need a TV show to show me a slice of real life, so I can decide how I feel about it. I have plenty of real life going on all around me. Like most TV viewers, I actively seek to understand a writer's message.

It sucks when the writers choose to abstain from sharing one. I like learning others' wisdom.

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

What are we discussing?

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by ~AnastasiaGrey~ (View Post) What are we discussing?

We are discussing Bay's decision to lie to Travis as to why he could not come over to her apartment and spend the night with her, and then, to immediately text Emmett as soon as Travis was out of sight (literally seconds later), and finagle an invitation from him to come over to his house.

In a nutshell, John is asking, "Does Bay's decision to lie to Travis (and be disloyal to her previous boyfriends) make Bay a bad person?"

With this last decision that the writers made, to have Bay driving off to her ex-boyfriend Emmett's house, after she just rejected an opportunity to spend the night with her current boyfriend Travis, I believe the writers are saying that all human beings are disloyal to the people to whom they should be loyal.

I believe the Switched at Birth writers think that we, as human beings, do not know how to be loyal, because they are always showing us how disloyal we are to each other, even the really good ones of us, like Bay.

That's my theory, and I am sticking to it, at least for another five minutes!

[John S]

Originally Posted by ~AnastasiaGrey~ (View Post) What are we discussing?

(Is it Amy?) believes that Bay has hurt most of the men in her life - or would have if a few of them had not hurt her first. Why? Was it her upbringing, the switch, or some other factor.
A "good " person doesn't hurt people like that. It looks like she is going to hurt Travis so that she could go back to Emmett.
I realize that most of the women on this site want Bay and Emmett back together - but at what cost? Is she supposed to destroy Travis to make that happen? Do "good" women do that?

[charming_essa]

I do not believe Bay is a "bad" person. To me that implies malicious intent. I do not believe Bay intends to hurt people. I think she is too impulsive and makes decisions based purely on the emotions she is experiencing at that time rather than taking time to think things through. That often leads to other people getting hurt. But I do not think it is her intent to hurt others. She still lacks emotional maturity. As I believe Daphne often does as well.

Also I do not believe it is a good idea for Bay and Emmett to get back together anytime soon, but I think it will happen anyway since this is the last season.

[John S]

Originally Posted by charming_essa (View Post) I do not believe Bay is a "bad" person. To me that implies malicious intent. I do not believe Bay intends to hurt people. I think she is too impulsive and makes decisions based purely on the emotions she is experiencing at that time rather than taking time to think things through. That often leads to other people getting hurt. But I do not think it is her intent to hurt others. She still lacks emotional maturity. As I believe Daphne often does as well. Also I do not believe it is a good idea for Bay and Emmett to get back together anytime soon, but I think it will happen anyway since this is the last season.

If Bay destroys her relationship with Travis, is that because she lacks emotional maturity? If your answer is YES, then what you are implying is that Bay can't help herself. She WILL ruin her relationships because she is too impulsive to control herself - even with Emmett.

I will agree that she is compulsive. If she hadn't been, then Daphne would have gone to jail. Because of that compulsiveness, Bay will ALWAYS be known as a convicted felon.

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

I dont know what to make of them to be honest.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by John S (View Post) (Is it Amy?) believes that Bay has hurt most of the men in her life - or would have if a few of them had not hurt her first. Why? Was it her upbringing, the switch, or some other factor. A "good " person doesn't hurt people like that. It looks like she is going to hurt Travis so that she could go back to Emmett. I realize that most of the women on this site want Bay and Emmett back together - but at what cost? Is she supposed to destroy Travis to make that happen? Do "good" women do that?

Yes, it's Amy! Thanks, John.

I do believe that Bay has hurt most of the men in her life and would have hurt all of them, if they had not broken away from her first. That's true.

Like you, I am analyzing why. Is it nature or nurture that causes Bay to be that way? Or some combination of both? All of us hurt the ones we love from time to time, but on every turn, Bay is confused about where her loyalty should lie. Most of us do not have that problem to such an extreme degree as Bay does.

You are right, John. A good person does do his or her best to minimize the hurt he or she inflicts on others. It's not rocket science figuring out who one should put first. I understood Bay's confusion when she was 16, but after the incident with Tank, I expected less naivete on Bay's part. She crossed a line lying to Travis in order to see an ex-boyfriend. That's a boundary that Bay should have understood, and I cannot excuse her ignorance, anymore than I can excuse her deception.

You are also right that I want Bay and Emmett back together. They are two amazing individuals. I know the word "amazing" gets thrown around a lot, but in this case, I really cannot think of a better word to describe Bay and Emmett.

As characters, both stun me. I am in awe of their authenticity, their ability to inspire me, their charisma, their vulnerability, their humanity. The cast and crew have come together to make two very special characters. And as great as Bay and Emmett are as individuals, from what I have seen, the two of them together have the potential to be even greater. Each of them became infinitely more interesting to me, when they first began hanging out together. Quite simply, Bay and Emmett are magic. I have already imagined a thousand story lines I would like to see explored with these two. In an interview, Lizzy Weiss once said that, on Switched at Birth, Deafness is a metaphor for the experience of being different. Well, to me, Bay and Emmett are a metaphor for the experience of being in love.

I watch other couples, both on Switched at Birth and on other shows, and I receive a sliver of what it is like to be in love. Bay and Emmett provide the whole "hot" tamale.

Bay and Emmett mesmerize me. Watching them has always been like falling in love. My senses are heightened. My mind becomes crystal clear. I feel invincible. It's addictive. They're addictive. And for the life of me, I will never understand why Lizzy Weiss did not capitalize on that. From the get-go, she had a lot of fans addicted to her love story, and rather than nurture Bay & Emmett's story, she turned her back on it.

As for Bay hurting Travis, when a person falls in love, he or she has to accept the risks. Bay doesn't owe Travis (or anyone) a lifetime of love, if she is not feeling it. It won't destroy Travis, if Bay is honest about her feelings. The problems arise when Bay is dishonest about her feelings. That's what happened to Emmett and to Tank.

I want Bay to handle the situation with Travis, better than she did the situation with Emmett and Tank. Bay should have been upfront with Emmett about not wanting to go to LA with him. It was wrong to mislead him. She obviously wasn't ready for that level of commitment with Emmett, and she should have been honest with herself about it and honest with Emmett.

Bay should have told Emmett how she felt, rather than making him figure it out for himself. Bay also should have been upfront with Tank about not being in love with him.

I understand that Bay is young and has a lot to learn about her own feelings. As exasperating as her lack of self-awareness can be, I have given her the benefit of the doubt. But after everything that happened with Tank at that dorm party, it's upsetting that Bay turned down Travis's offer to spend the night with her, so she could run off to spend time with Emmett.

Originally Posted by charming_essa (View Post) I do not believe Bay is a "bad" person. To me that implies malicious intent. I do not believe Bay intends to hurt people. I think she is too impulsive and makes decisions based purely on the emotions she is experiencing at that time rather than taking time to think things through. That often leads to other people getting hurt. But I do not think it is her intent to hurt others. She still lacks emotional maturity. As I believe Daphne often does as well. Also I do not believe it is a good idea for Bay and Emmett to get back together anytime soon, but I think it will happen anyway since this is the last season.

Bay is impulsive, and she does make decisions based on emotion.

I am the same way. I use as little logic as I can. I don't respect logic. And I use my intuition to jump without looking all of the time, too. I trust my intuition way more than my five senses.

But if I hurt someone the way that Bay hurt Tank and Emmett, then I would at least know enough about myself to be able to refrain from lying to a boyfriend about running off to see an ex-boyfriend.

Bay didn't have any malicious desire to hurt Travis. That's true. But Bay was selfish in a way that will hurt him, just the same.

Bay knew how Travis would feel about her spending time with Emmett, but she wasn't willing to give that up for Travis. Bay chose to put her wants ahead of her partner's, and yet, she could not be honest about her decision. That's self-serving.

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

I think its a litttle deeper than that, I think she has unresolved feelings and she thought being with Travis would change all that but it hasnt it just brought them back to surface for them to face.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by ~AnastasiaGrey~ (View Post) I think its a litttle deeper than that, I think she has unresolved feelings and she thought being with Travis would change all that but it hasnt it just brought them back to surface for them to face.

True. I think so, too.

But I am so proud of Bay for taking a stand and telling Emmett that they cannot be friends. Back when Bay was Emmett's girlfriend, she should have told Tank that they could not be friends. So much heartache could have been avoided, if Bay had simply chosen not to blur those lines. Finally, Bay is doing the right thing.