[nailpolishchick2]

Originally Posted by Pigquet (View Post) The only thing this woman cares about are the facts of whether or not something criminal happened in that dorm room. And it didn't. You were not sexually assaulted. You know that. So say it. Why are you making it sound so grey? Why is your language so vague? Why must you give a speech about your mistakes and regrets? This is so simple. "This was a misunderstanding. The sex was consensual. Do not punish Miles for it. I'm being honest when I tell you that no rape occurred, and nothing criminal or violent happened. Thank you, and have a good day." Turn around out the door, and walk away. Then go talk to your parents, or sister, or friends about the regret you feel over a bad decision over booze and sex with an ex. My god, Bay, do you not realize how serious this is? Do you not realize that Tank couldn't just get expelled, but could even go to jail, if people think he's a rapist? And you don't have the decency to tell the woman its not true? You have no business rambling about how messy the situation is, about how you wish it didn't happen, about how much you've both been through. If you don't make it clear that, regardless of "feeling violated," the sex was consensual, then these people can run wild with the idea that it wasn't. They can interpret your speech as a victim's speech. And that is so dangerous. You can't allow yourself to be misinterpreted or misquoted. You have to be to the point. Bay may not have started the investigation, but she had the power and responsibility to put an end to it.

You've said everything I've been feeling about this. Bay has made herself damn clear, she does not view Tank as a rapist, OKAY, then there's your simple answer, as you pointed out, there was a misunderstanding between friends but no crime was committed here. That was one of the few times I wanted to reach into the screen and slap Bay. I realize she's been through a hard time but she played with Tank's whole life and now she can't take it back! He got expelled because of her. Instead of just saying to herself, I made a mistake, I don't remember all the of the details but I don't believe for one single second that Tank took advantage of me and or raped me!

[Pigquet]

Originally Posted by nailpolishchick2 (View Post) You've said everything I've been feeling about this. Bay has made herself damn clear, she does not view Tank as a rapist, OKAY, then there's your simple answer, as you pointed out, there was a misunderstanding between friends but no crime was committed here. That was one of the few times I wanted to reach into the screen and slap Bay. I realize she's been through a hard time but she played with Tank's whole life and now she can't take it back! He got expelled because of her. Instead of just saying to herself, I made a mistake, I don't remember all the of the details but I don't believe for one single second that Tank took advantage of me and or raped me!

Yes, exactly!

So glad someone understands what I meant and agrees with how frustrating and wrong that was.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Pigquet (View Post) Okay, let me preface this by saying that I love Bay. A lot. I relate to her, I empathize with her, and I see so much of myself in her. She's my favorite character, and a huge reason why I watch this show. That being said, regarding the subject matter of the "Bay/Tank consent controversy episodes," Bay absolutely infuriated me in that scene with her and the investigator.

Yes! I agree with so much of what you say in this post.

Here are a couple of places where I disagree:

Originally Posted by Pigquet (View Post) This is so simple. "This was a misunderstanding. The sex was consensual. Do not punish Miles for it. I'm being honest when I tell you that no rape occurred, and nothing criminal or violent happened. Thank you, and have a good day." Turn around out the door, and walk away.

Bay has no idea whether her sex with Tank was consensual or not. Bay has no memory of her act of sexual intercourse with Tank, at all.

I wish she had said THAT to the investigator, instead of "Something happened and I was not okay with it."

I am still scratching my head as to why Bay didn't simply tell the investigator, "I am not even sure something did happen between us. I have no memory of the event. I am only going on Tank's word that something happened. I cannot tell you more."

To me, Bay wants to believe Tank is telling her the truth. She definitely believes (in her heart) that Tank would never intentionally hurt her. That's obvious by Bay's need for Emmett to know that Tank is not a monster.

But if Bay allows herself to believe Tank would never knowingly take advantage of her, then Bay also has to admit that she gave Tank the impression she wanted to have sex with him.

I do not think that there is any question that Bay DID give Tank the impression she was into having sex with him. Lizzy Weiss has said in interviews that Tank is absolutely honest when he shares his perspective of the evening with Bay and her family. A drunk Tank believed that Bay was into the sex with him.

Would a sober Tank have been sharp enough to realize that Bay was just acting that way because of the alcohol in her system? Probably. Should society hold Tank accountable for what he would have been able to discern that night if he was sober?

I don't think so. Not unless he IS sober.

It makes no sense to me to hold a drunk Tank accountable for it and to not hold a drunk Bay.

Daphne asked Bay if that scenario was possible. Daphne asked Bay if she could have chosen to cheat on Emmett that night, and Bay's answer was, "I don't know."

Bay is trying to come to terms with the idea that she gave Tank the impression she wanted to have sex with him.

Bay must be asking herself these two questions:

"Did Tank believe I was into having sex with him, because HE was so drunk that he misinterpreted my movements?"

OR

"Did Tank believe that I was into having sex with him, because I was so drunk that I really was into having sex with him?"

For Bay, if the first question is true, then she can feel confident that she did not cheat on Emmett. If the second question is true, then Bay did cheat on Emmett.

Bay doesn't want to believe that she was into having sex with Tank, because she doesn't want to believe she cheated on Emmett. But with no memory of the event, all Bay has to go on is what she DOES remember before it happened and what Tank says.

We do know these three facts from Tank (and we can trust them because they are verified in interviews by Lizzy Weiss):

1. Bay never indicated "no" or "stop" before or during sex with Tank.
2. Bay was never passed out before or during sex with Tank.
3. Bay acted into sex with Tank, from his drunken perspective.

I still wonder why Tank did not retract his story.

Tank could have told the investigator he was initially embarrassed that he was too drunk to get an erection, so he lied, telling Bay they had sex that night, when they really did not.

That lie could have saved his college career.

I disagree with this part, too:

Originally Posted by Pigquet (View Post) Bay may not have started the investigation, but she had the power and responsibility to put an end to it.

Bay did have the power to put an end to the investigation, but I do not feel it was Bay's responsibility to put an end to it.

To me, Bay is only responsible for herself and for telling the truth. Tank's future is all on him to protect.

Bay felt a need to tell her side of the story, and she had that right. I am surprised that she could be so naive to think that the way she stated the truth would not get Tank expelled. There are many ways she could have worded her truth, and she chose a way that was almost guaranteed to cause Tank's expulsion.

I really do not believe that Bay felt Tank deserved to be expelled, so I do not understand why she worded her truth that way, other than naivety.

If she wanted to protect Tank AND be honest in telling her story, then Bay should have said this to the investigator:

1. Tank is a good guy who I know would never intentionally hurt me.
2. Both Tank and I got drunk.
3. I playfully flirted with Tank all evening and asked him to lie down next to me to look at ceiling stars.
4. Then, I don't remember what I did next, but I did wake up naked next to Tank.

That's all honest, and that is what Bay should have said if she wanted to tell her story AND protect Tank.

But again, to me, it isn't Bay's responsibility to protect Tank. He is a big boy. Bay should only concern herself with phrasing things that way, if Tank's future matters to her.

Either it wasn't important to Bay to protect Tank or Bay is really naive. I am not sure which one is true.

Two things are ultimately responsible for Tank's expulsion:

• Tank's careless actions while drunk
• the botched legal policies currently in effect on our nation's college campuses

Could Bay's carefully phrased words have saved Tank? Absolutely. But I do not feel it was her responsibility to do so.

To me, it is more our responsibility, as citizens, to change these laws and protect our young men. But while we are taking responsibility, I would like for us to find a way to protect our young women, too.

I do not feel Bay was raped, but many young women are raped. More needs to be done to change that.

I do believe Bay is traumatized by the natural consequences for the choices she made after consuming alcohol. It happens to MANY others, too.

Both Kathryn and Regina have tried to warn Bay about alcohol. What more could they have done? What more should our society do to make young people aware of the dangers?

Tank is traumatized by society's bungling of implementing punishment for the choices he made after consuming alcohol.

On our college campuses, tens of thousands of young men and women make the same choice Bay and Tank made in the dorm room that night. All of them face the natural consequences for their choice.

A small handful of them also face unfair punishment, implemented in an arbitrary and capricious manner and designed to protect the college's funding more than to protect the students themselves.

Is expelling young men like Tank (and labeling them sex offenders) the best method society has for modifying their behavior?

What could society do differently to help young men like Tank? What should we do?

What will encourage young people to listen to us about the dangers of alcohol? Is this something they must learn by experience?

We can make improvements. We owe it to our young people to work on it.

[Pigquet]

Of course it is an extremely complicated issue on all sides, and I agree that we should work harder to fix these very real problems in our society.

Just talking in terms of the fictional show, characters, and scenario at hand, perhaps you are right that it wasn't Bay's responsibility to put an end to the entire investigation, especially since she wasn't the one who started it.

What I largely meant by that is, if someone is being asked questions by someone else with the authority to reprimand a falsely accused rapist, and the person questioned does not believe they were actually raped by this person, they have a responsibility to be honest. Her voice matters. It matters a great deal. If she had been more clear-cut with either a "no" or an "I don't know" answer, it could have brought most, if not all, of the investigation to an end, and certainly saved Tank's college career, lifetime reputation, and any other consequences he may face.

I don't buy this "Their minds were already made up," idea. She wouldn't have been asked her side of the story if their minds were already made up. Maybe some people's minds were already made up about the situation, and were going to blame Tank no matter what Bay said, but clearly this woman had an interest in what Bay had to say about it, or she wouldn't have written it down and made a decision based on her words.

[Slayerfan714]

Sigh.

It's an unwinnable argument clearly, so agree to disagree.

Doesn't Bay have enough problems that now we have to saddle her ex-boyfriend's expulsion on her too?

Again, I must stress Bay didn't want this investigation in the first place/. The problem is, if Bay isn't going to say it's rape, then people automatically assume it was consensual. But when it comes to the law, there is no middle ground. But as far as Bay is concerned, there is. And there's no easy way to explain that. To say, "Hey, I believe I was taken advantage of, but it wasn't rape." Because we don't have the language for that yet.

Her telling the investigator it was consensual would be a lie in her mind. I don't actually believe Bay sees that Tank was right by the end of the episode. I think she was still confused and hurt, but felt bad that Tank was expelled. When she confronted Tank prior to talking with the investigator, she asks him if she deserved having something done to her without her permission. So she still believes she wasn't in the right frame of mind to give consent.

I totally think Tank took advantage. First off, don't ever call it a "green light" you misogynistic pig. She's not a car. You're not driving on the street. Second, I think he knew she wouldn't be into it in the sober light of day. Hence why he didn't question it.

I don't like Tank. I think he's manipulative. He was quick to throw out the whole "I didn't tell you Bay cheated" story to John. Yeah, how long would you have held that one over her head, Tank? Right in his back pocket, I see. Especially for someone like Bay who is susceptible to doing things for others out of guilt. Wondered what he could have milked that one for.

I also don't think Bay is okay with what happened.

But, IIRC, the poster who I responded to initially was questioning whether Bay outright lied about it. And no, she didn't.

If you want to think Bay should have told the investigator something else or that she should have been more clear and concise, that's one thing. But suggesting Bay lied about this to get out of cheating on a technicality is pretty insulting and gross and something else entirely. Unfortunately those seem to be the two trains of thought. A) Bay was raped/taken advantage of or B) She just said it to get out of cheating. Which is ridiculous since she didn't deny cheating on Tank. So why would she deny it now? . Bay doesn't outright lie about things like that. She doesn't throw people under the bus either.

So yeah there's a big difference between "I think Bay should have been more clear in her response" and "I don't know if I should like Bay anymore because lying about rape is unforgivable." She didn't do the latter.

[Pigquet]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) Again, I must stress Bay didn't want this investigation in the first place/. The problem is, if Bay isn't going to say it's rape, then people automatically assume it was consensual. But when it comes to the law, there is no middle ground. But as far as Bay is concerned, there is. And there's no easy way to explain that. To say, "Hey, I believe I was taken advantage of, but it wasn't rape." Because we don't have the language for that yet.

Then as I've said, Bay should have simply said she didn't know because she blacked out. Simple. I really think she feels it wasn't rape, so she should have said it was consensual. But if some people think she was unsure by the time of the discussion with the investigator, then she should have said "I don't know." No reason to add that she wasn't okay with it, or felt violated, or anything that implies it may have been assault.

First off, don't ever call it a "green light" you misogynistic pig. She's not a car. You're not driving on the street.

Is this really considered an offensive expression? I mean, its not one I would likely use, but I don't know if it automatically implies objectification.

Green light = go = yes = consent. I get where it comes from. Just an expression. Tank seems anything but misogynistic, especially towards Bay. He probably wasn't watching every word he used in every speech where he attempted to defend his actions.

I don't like Tank.

I don't either. I think he's a creep.

I don't like how long he was devoted to his frat after they'd proven themselves multiple times to be a bunch of disloyal, disrespectful pigs.

I don't like how he gets so angry when he isn't liked or forgiven instantly (its not everyone's job to like you or forgive you at your whim and fancy, bro).

I don't like how much he drinks, how he brings alcohol everywhere he goes, and how he gives alcohol to minors all the time.

I really don't like how he reacted when Bay didn't want to have sex with him when they were still dating. That was disgusting.

He is most certainly not the type of guy I would ever date, or even be friends with. Sure, he and Bay had a decent friendship going for awhile, I guess, but I found it very odd that she would go for a guy like him, and I hate how often he's been in the show, as if he's one of the most important characters now. Its bizarre.

If you want to think Bay should have told the investigator something else or that she should have been more clear and concise, that's one thing.

Obviously that's exactly what I was saying, nothing more.

But suggesting Bay lied about this to get out of cheating on a technicality is pretty insulting and gross and something else entirely.

I agree. That's definitely not what I think she was doing, and its a very insulting and cruel thing to accuse anyone of doing.

Its also not in Bay's character at all to accuse someone of something so serious and so evil just to get herself out of trouble. I don't for a second think she was doing that. Tank did accuse her of doing that a few times, and it was a very wrong thing to say.

[AnneH]

so she should have said it was consensual.

No reason to add that she wasn't okay with it, or felt violated, or anything that implies it may have been assault.

I'm sorry this still doesn't make any sense to me. To Bay, it wasn't consensual. Why would she say it was consensual when to her it wasn't? and why can't she be honest about feeling violated? that's how she felt about the entire situation. she feels tank did something to her without her permission. that to me sounds like bay doesn't feel she gave consent.

[Slayerfan714]

Is this really considered an offensive expression? I mean, its not one I would likely use, but I don't know if it automatically implies objectification. Green light = go = yes = consent. I get where it comes from. Just an expression. Tank seems anything but misogynistic, especially towards Bay. He probably wasn't watching every word he used in every speech where he attempted to defend his actions.

Granted, I may be looking at reasons to dislike Tank even more when there's actually valid reasons. The misogynistic comment is more related to his frat, which was more than willing to objectify women for their own fun.

Ugh. Him and that stupid frat. Part of me wanted to when he was bellowing that they're not all bad guys. No, some of are true creeps out and out....and the rest of you are wimps for letting it happen. But hey, if that helps you sleep at night Tank because you're not as bad as the rest of your frat bros, then good for you!

I don't either. I think he's a creep. I don't like how long he was devoted to his frat after they'd proven themselves multiple times to be a bunch of disloyal, disrespectful pigs. I don't like how he gets so angry when he isn't liked or forgiven instantly (its not everyone's job to like you or forgive you at your whim and fancy, bro). I don't like how much he drinks, how he brings alcohol everywhere he goes, and how he gives alcohol to minors all the time. I really don't like how he reacted when Bay didn't want to have sex with him when they were still dating. That was disgusting. He is most certainly not the type of guy I would ever date, or even be friends with. Sure, he and Bay had a decent friendship going for awhile, I guess, but I found it very odd that she would go for a guy like him, and I hate how often he's been in the show, as if he's one of the most important characters now. Its bizarre.

His reaction to Bay's rejection was really, really gross. Nobody regardless of gender should react like that. Ever. You can be butt hurt all you want about it....in private. Otherwise, it's guilt-tripping behavior.

I also did not like him slamming the door in Bay's face and blaming his lack of housing on her. Ha-ha. Funny. Nope, you're the one who dropped out of a frat for a girl you had been dating for two seconds. Plus, Bay thought she was going to her brother's apartment to see ONLY her brother. It's not Tank's damn apartment. His name isn't on the lease. I would have knocked on the door and taken back the food to be honest.

I agree. That's definitely not what I think she was doing, and its a very insulting and cruel thing to accuse anyone of doing. Its also not in Bay's character at all to accuse someone of something so serious and so evil just to get herself out of trouble. I don't for a second think she was doing that. Tank did accuse her of doing that a few times, and it was a very wrong thing to say.

Good. I am glad we agree on that.

I apologize if I come off as too passionate. I, like you, love Bay. It's easy for me to go from zero to sixty when it comes to this issue especially because I've seen some really terrible things like how she knowingly ruined Tank's life. It was a messed up situation and there was no easy way to fix it. It's something Bay will be living with for the rest of her life.

I just don't want her blaming herself because I am afraid of where it'll lead. Not that the show would go there, but if Tank ever decided to take his own life, I'm sure Bay would feel like she's partially responsible. And I don't know how she'd respond to that.

[Pigquet]

Originally Posted by AnneH (View Post) and why can't she be honest about feeling violated? that's how she felt about the entire situation.

Because it implies that he raped her to a person who is already suspicious that he raped her, when its pretty clear that Bay does not feel that he raped her. She continues to defend him and trust him, despite her bad feelings. She insists that he is a good guy and would never intentionally hurt her. That isn't rape. The investigation was about sexual assault. Bay should not have been giving these people any more reason to think that sexual assault occurred.

Her feeling unhappy about the situation or upset that Tank may have taken advantage of her drunken state have nothing to do with whether or not this was consensual.

Many people are claiming that Bay did not know how to feel about the situation by the time of the scene in question. If that's true, then I'm at least standing firm on she should have said, "I blacked out, so I don't know." That would have been the best and most honest response possible.

[AnneH]

nope. don't agree.

[Pigquet]

Originally Posted by AnneH (View Post) nope. don't agree.

Alrighty then. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Pigquet]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) Granted, I may be looking at reasons to dislike Tank even more when there's actually valid reasons. The misogynistic comment is more related to his frat, which was more than willing to objectify women for their own fun. Ugh. Him and that stupid frat. Part of me wanted to when he was bellowing that they're not all bad guys. No, some of are true creeps out and out....and the rest of you are wimps for letting it happen. But hey, if that helps you sleep at night Tank because you're not as bad as the rest of your frat bros, then good for you!

Yeah, the whole "Just because most of the guys in my stupid club (that I make more important than it really is) are bad doesn't mean all of us are bad," is one of the weakest arguments in the book. Didn't we cover this lesson in 6th grade after-school specials?

P.S. Sorry for double post! Didn't realize I did that 'til afterwards!

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Pigquet (View Post) Alrighty then. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I agree with you.

If I felt violated by someone's actions, but I believed that I probably did things to make that person believe he had my permission, then my conscience would not allow me to tell an investigator that I wasn't okay with it, unless I qualified that statement with more information.

In that situation, I would say, "Something happened, and I wasn't okay with it. But in fairness to him, and based on memories and pictures from earlier in the evening, I believe that my actions probably indicated to him that I was okay with it."

If I believed my actions indicated to Tank that I was into it, then I could not just tell an investigator that, "Something happened, and I wasn't okay with it."

At the VERY least, I would have said, "IF something happened, then I wasn't okay with it. But I have no first-hand knowledge that anything even happened. I am going completely off of Tank's word that it did."

Because knowing that, how could an investigator base any decision on my statement?

[Slayerfan714]

Well, I still don't feel it was on Bay to save Tank.

I don't think Bay owes him an apology or anything. I'm sure Tank would relish in the opportunity now to make Bay feel like crap. And that makes me feel icky.

If Tank wants justice, he should go after the university. Making it a personal vendetta against Bay only makes him look even worse IMO. And believe me, he already looks terrible to me.

And yes, Tank's argument was super weak re: the frat.

Why do people even use that argument anyway? Yeah, I hang out with people who do crappy things; I don't condone it, but you can't blame me because I am not actually participating. Um....okay? You look weak. And yeah, you are who you hang out with. But hey, if you want to boast that the majority of your bros wouldn't participate in a dog fight, they just wouldn't do anything to stop it, then you go right ahead. Makes him look pathetic. Never fear though, he totally called and left an anonymous tip.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) Well, I still don't feel it was on Bay to save Tank. I don't think Bay owes him an apology or anything. I'm sure Tank would relish in the opportunity now to make Bay feel like crap. And that makes me feel icky. If Tank wants justice, he should go after the university. Making it a personal vendetta against Bay only makes him look even worse IMO. And believe me, he already looks terrible to me. And yes, Tank's argument was super weak re: the frat. Why do people even use that argument anyway? Yeah, I hang out with people who do crappy things; I don't condone it, but you can't blame me because I am not actually participating. Um....okay? You look weak. And yeah, you are who you hang out with. But hey, if you want to boast that the majority of your bros wouldn't participate in a dog fight, they just wouldn't do anything to stop it, then you go right ahead. Makes him look pathetic. Never fear though, he totally called and left an anonymous tip.

Yes. I agree that it was NOT on Bay to save Tank.

To me, the responsibility is on Tank to know what the current laws and policies are in his state and at his college.

And yes, the responsibility is on society to make sure that our laws and policies are fair to all people.

But none of the responsibility rests with Bay.

I was only speaking of my conscience and what it would allow me to do, at this time in my life. I am not 19 years old, and I did not just go through a traumatic experience.

If so, then I might make a statement similar to the one made by Bay.

As for Tank, I do not believe he should say anything to Bay ever again. For him, there is nothing positive to be gained. I would understand if Tank feels the same way about Bay that Bay told Melody she feels about Emmett. Bay doesn't deserve those feelings from Tank, anymore than Emmett deserved them from Bay. But I would understand Tank feeling those emotions.

But if Tank has any decency, he will not express those emotions or any others to Bay.

Ultimately, Tank should know that he is responsible for everything that happened to him and leave Bay out of it, because she is a wounded party in this situation, too.

I can understand Tank initially feeling anger and hatred for Bay, but Tank lacks common sense and decency if he actually blames her, after those initial feelings dissipate.

This situation is all on him and on society. Alyssa is right. That's where Tank should take out his anger, if he feels wronged. He should sue the university.