[ollibear]

Originally Posted by AnneH (View Post) 3x21 is probably the worst twist of all time.

I agree.

Going back and re-watching episodes, I can see it building from Season 1A, but still, it was horrible.

It's not that it doesn't make sense. It does. Bay had watched as everyone had protected Daphne, season after season after season. So of course, when she saw an opportunity to protect Daphne, she stepped in and did her part, too. And Bay was just naive enough to think it would be okay.

But God, it kills me to see it.

I seriously hope she learns from this mistake (and SEES it as a mistake). I cannot stand the thought that Bay may continue to think that what she did was okay, and if given another opportunity to do the same thing, to think that she should do it all over again.

THAT would be awful. I really, really hope Bay reaches the conclusion that what she did was NOT okay. Bay doesn't have to blame Daphne for it, but she does need to value herself enough to be able to say "no" if a situation like that ever arises again.

I would love to see what might happen if an opportunity for Daphne to take a fall like that for Bay ever arises.

Would Daphne make a huge sacrifice for Bay? Would Bay want Daphne to make a sacrifice for her?

I don't believe Bay would want Daphne to do it. And I don't believe Daphne would make a sacrifice for Bay. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it as being a part of Daphne's character. Daphne isn't as naive as Bay was during that moment at the police station.

I just hope Bay isn't that naive any more either. I hope Bay has lost some of her innocence.

I'm curious to see what will happen to John's relationship with both Bay and Daphne in the future.

D.W. Moffett is a good actor. I would like to see him have a bigger role with the two girls. He needs more scenes with them. Right now, things seem to be good between John and his three children.

I want more story!

[Slayerfan714]

I do want to see more with John and his kids.

I don't think Daphne would do the same for Bay or Bay would allow her to.

It's funny, the way the parents are with Bay and Daphne. For John and Kathryn, clearly they had some sense of loss and also they feel guilty I think, maybe by not noticing that Bay didn't look like them, that certain factors were off (the baby's weight) that they didn't pay attention to, that they feel they abandoned Daphne in a way. Which leads to them overcompensating, hence, protecting Daphne. And it makes sense in a way. It also makes sense to me that no matter how badly Daphne screws up, they're afraid to really give it to her due to feeling like they could lose her. Where as with Bay, while she isn't their bio daughter, her position in the family is solidified. She was there for sixteen years. With Daphne, her position has always been more loose and fragile. Ironic since they opened up their arms wide to Daphne and Regina has been reluctant.

It's also ironic since I find Daphne's relationship with both sets of parents to be more fake in a way than I find Bay's to be. It's almost as if John and Kathryn and Regina all placate to her. They don't with Bay. With Bay, they're brutally honest and to a point where it feels harsh.

I'm not sure which girl is better off though. Maybe neither of them are. Perhaps that is the point. Daphne has the loyalty of her family, but I see it coming from a place of fear of losing her rather than genuine love (not that they don't love her. They do) and Bay's sense of "lesser" value is reinforced a lot by her parents' actions.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by Slayerfan714 (View Post) It's also ironic since I find Daphne's relationship with both sets of parents to be more fake in a way than I find Bay's to be. It's almost as if John and Kathryn and Regina all placate to her.

They DO.

Everything about Daphne's character feels fake to me, and I am trying really hard to give her the benefit of the doubt, because I do not believe the writers want me feeling as though she is fake (although, maybe they do?).

Once upon a time, I thought Daphne and Regina had a good relationship. It feels as though it really went south, when Daphne found out the Regina hid the truth for all of those years. I am not sure if Daphne can forgive Regina for that.

Even their most recent "good" scene, where Daphne and Regina eat gelato and watch bad movies together, felt hollow and fake. (That's the scene that happened, immediately after Daphne left Bay & Tank together, at the dorm party.) Regina seemed sincere, but Daphne didn't. I just don't trust Daphne anymore.

As for Bay & John, they did have some good scenes together in Season 4A, but something still feels off to me. It almost feels as though John was only extra good to Bay, because she took the fall for Daphne. Otherwise, I get the feeling John would have been much harsher with Bay this season.

I hate feeling like that, but I do.

Also, Bay told John, point blank, that she didn't think Emmett could handle the truth about Tank, and John told her to tell him anyway, to not underestimate Emmett.

What do you think is up with the writers' decision to include that dialogue?

Does it say anything about John and Bay's relationship?

Or was that scene only included to show viewers how much John, Bay, and everyone else, over-estimates Emmett's depth and his character?

Perhaps viewers were meant to watch that scene and then realize that Emmett is even a worse scumbag than so many thought he was, after he cheated on Bay?

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) Also, Bay told John, point blank, that she didn't think Emmett could handle the truth about Tank, and John told her to tell him anyway, to not underestimate Emmett. What do you think is up with the writers' decision to include that dialogue? Does it say anything about John and Bay's relationship? Or was that scene only included to show viewers how much John, Bay, and everyone else, over-estimates Emmett's depth and his character? Perhaps viewers were meant to watch that scene and then realize that Emmett is even a worse scumbag than so many thought he was, after he cheated on Bay?

I'm still wondering about the questions up above, even though it now seems obvious that the dialogue was meant to show what a loser Emmett is.

In Season 1A, Emmett was hellbent on letting Daphne know what a loser Liam is, and as it turns out, Emmett is a much bigger jerk than Liam ever was. That's irony, I guess.

This season, I wish we would get a scene where John says to Bay:

"I think we all over-estimated Emmett. He's not the guy you or I thought he was, but Bay, you have to know that it is better to find that out now, than later, after you've made a commitment to him. Don't worry. The right person will come along, and when that person does, he may let you down at times, but he won't ever leave you."

That would hark back to John telling Daphne that he might let her down, but he would never leave her.

John will be going through his own crisis this season. I wonder if Bay or Daphne will be the person he leans on the most. (I know it won't be Toby, because Toby will have enough on his plate with Lily's pregnancy.)

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) I'm still wondering about the questions up above, even though it now seems obvious that the dialogue was meant to show what a loser Emmett is. In Season 1A, Emmett was hellbent on letting Daphne know what a loser Liam is, and as it turns out, Emmett is a much bigger jerk than Liam ever was. That's irony, I guess. This season, I wish we would get a scene where John says to Bay: "I think we all over-estimated Emmett. He's not the guy you or I thought he was, but Bay, you have to know that it is better to find that out now, than later, after you've made a commitment to him. Don't worry. The right person will come along, and when that person does, he may let you down at times, but he won't ever leave you." That would hark back to John telling Daphne that he might let her down, but he would never leave her. John will be going through his own crisis this season. I wonder if Bay or Daphne will be the person he leans on the most. (I know it won't be Toby, because Toby will have enough on his plate with Lily's pregnancy.)

It's weird.

John ended up not leaning on ANY of his three kids, and he didn't lean on Kathryn much either. No man is an island. I wonder what gives with John.

I am glad John was there for Bay after her rape. At least she had one man stand by her side. Toby did, too, I suppose, but John is the one who really came through for Bay.

I still hate that John told Bay not to underestimate Emmett. It makes it all the more painful that Bay tried so hard to believe in Emmett, and he still let her down.

And I hate that John said, "Because he loves you." Now, those words make it seem like Emmett never did love Bay, since he didn't stand by her after her rape. Or if he did, it was a shallow love, and a shallow Emmett.

I don't like the writers giving us such mixed signals. It's like nothing ever means anything on this show. I can't count on anyone's words or actions.

I can't decipher any message from the writers about anything. It's such a huge letdown.

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) It's weird. John ended up not leaning on ANY of his three kids, and he didn't lean on Kathryn much either. No man is an island. I wonder what gives with John. I am glad John was there for Bay after her rape. At least she had one man stand by her side. Toby did, too, I suppose, but John is the one who really came through for Bay. I still hate that John told Bay not to underestimate Emmett. It makes it all the more painful that Bay tried so hard to believe in Emmett, and he still let her down. And I hate that John said, "Because he loves you." Now, those words make it seem like Emmett never did love Bay, since he didn't stand by her after her rape. Or if he did, it was a shallow love, and a shallow Emmett. I don't like the writers giving us such mixed signals. It's like nothing ever means anything on this show. I can't count on anyone's words or actions. I can't decipher any message from the writers about anything. It's such a huge letdown.

Maybe John was trying to say fight for the relationship at that point, I am not sure if he could of predicted Emmett doing the opposite.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by ~TwilighterTee~ (View Post) Maybe John was trying to say fight for the relationship at that point, I am not sure if he could of predicted Emmett doing the opposite.

Maybe. If Bay had been my daughter, I would have advised her to follow her own instincts.

I don't necessarily think that Emmett needed all of the details about how what happened with Tank was not as simple as rape. All Emmett needed to know is that ultimately Bay didn't want it to happen. Emmett didn't need to know that Bay's actions made Tank feel like she did want it to happen. That was too much information and really just seems hurtful that Bay would share those details with Emmett. I could see how in Emmett's mind that he might think, "If Bay is telling me this, then she must want me to know that she cares so little about me that she did that."

I wonder if John felt Bay was too young to go to LA, and he hoped it would be too much for Emmett to handle (to show Bay that they were not mature enough to live together yet).

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) Maybe. If Bay had been my daughter, I would have advised her to follow her own instincts. I don't necessarily think that Emmett needed all of the details about how what happened with Tank was not as simple as rape. All Emmett needed to know is that ultimately Bay didn't want it to happen. Emmett didn't need to know that Bay's actions made Tank feel like she did want it to happen. That was too much information and really just seems hurtful that Bay would share those details with Emmett. I could see how in Emmett's mind that he might think, "If Bay is telling me this, then she must want me to know that she cares so little about me that she did that." I wonder if John felt Bay was too young to go to LA, and he hoped it would be too much for Emmett to handle (to show Bay that they were not mature enough to live together yet).

yeah he probably does

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by ~TwilighterTee~ (View Post) yeah he probably does

Both Kathryn and John seemed negative about Bay's plan to go to LA with Emmett. They wanted her to follow her own dreams, and they did not think she was ready for that kind of commitment to Emmett.

Regina seemed more open to the idea. Her philosophy seems to be that children need to make their own mistakes.

John and Kathryn seem to know Bay better than she knows herself. Bay needed that extra year at home with her mom and dad. She wasn't ready to move out of their house until China.

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) Both Kathryn and John seemed negative about Bay's plan to go to LA with Emmett. They wanted her to follow her own dreams, and they did not think she was ready for that kind of commitment to Emmett. Regina seemed more open to the idea. Her philosophy seems to be that children need to make their own mistakes. John and Kathryn seem to know Bay better than she knows herself. Bay needed that extra year at home with her mom and dad. She wasn't ready to move out of their house until China.

I dont know sometimes they nee to let bay figure out things herself.

[ollibear]

Originally Posted by ~TwilighterTee~ (View Post) I dont know sometimes they nee to let bay figure out things herself.

I think John and Kathryn ultimately did let Bay figure things out for herself, so that was good.

It's just that Bay seemed hellbent on going to LA, and John and Kathryn felt negatively about that decision. Then, when push came to shove, Bay wasn't so sure about it either, and she found a way to get out of it.

John and Kathryn knew what Bay needed, better than Bay knew herself. But Bay's intuition helped her to find the right path.

I don't think John and Kathryn would have wanted Bay to take on a felony conviction to avoid going to LA, but in the long run, no big harm was done and it did work. It kept Bay home with the family, until she was ready to go off to China with Daphne, and I think that was what Bay needed (to be home with her family).

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) I think John and Kathryn ultimately did let Bay figure things out for herself, so that was good. It's just that Bay seemed hellbent on going to LA, and John and Kathryn felt negatively about that decision. Then, when push came to shove, Bay wasn't so sure about it either, and she found a way to get out of it. John and Kathryn knew what Bay needed, better than Bay knew herself. But Bay's intuition helped her to find the right path. I don't think John and Kathryn would have wanted Bay to take on a felony conviction to avoid going to LA, but in the long run, no big harm was done and it did work. It kept Bay home with the family, until she was ready to go off to China with Daphne, and I think that was what Bay needed (to be home with her family).

Yeah true

[ollibear]

John has really been there for Bay, every step of the way. Even when he didn't understand about her graffiti, he still came through for her.

Bay wasn't really there for John, when he had his heart attack. We saw Daphne and Kathryn tending to John's needs a lot, but Bay was off with Regina and Angelo at the time. We never really saw Bay do anything for John or with John, through that whole ordeal.

I guess Ty took precedence at the time. I remember Bay advising Daphne to make time for Jace and not let John's needs come between Daphne and the man she liked.

It was nice to see Bay share time with John while he was coaching at UMKC. Maybe Bay will start dating Travis, and we will see her continue her role as John's assistant. That would be great! Lots of scenes of Bay and John and Travis on the ball field. I love baseball.

Ever since we learned in Episode 2 of the series that Emmett collected baseball cards, I used to look for signs of Emmett liking baseball, because I love the sport so much. Emmett always had a baseball mitt folded up on his dresser or nightstand, in every episode. But we never saw him playing baseball. In my mind, I had envisioned him throwing a ball around with his son one day. I always wanted to see Emmett as a dad, partly because his relationship with his dad was so strained. I wanted to see Emmett close to John and Angelo, but I realize now that's not ever going to happen.

Travis and John are very close though. Their relationship could be great for Bay and John, if Bay starts dating Travis, like we suspect.

[~AnastasiaGrey~]

Originally Posted by ollibear (View Post) John has really been there for Bay, every step of the way. Even when he didn't understand about her graffiti, he still came through for her. Bay wasn't really there for John, when he had his heart attack. We saw Daphne and Kathryn tending to John's needs a lot, but Bay was off with Regina and Angelo at the time. We never really saw Bay do anything for John or with John, through that whole ordeal. I guess Ty took precedence at the time. I remember Bay advising Daphne to make time for Jace and not let John's needs come between Daphne and the man she liked. It was nice to see Bay share time with John while he was coaching at UMKC. Maybe Bay will start dating Travis, and we will see her continue her role as John's assistant. That would be great! Lots of scenes of Bay and John and Travis on the ball field. I love baseball. Ever since we learned in Episode 2 of the series that Emmett collected baseball cards, I used to look for signs of Emmett liking baseball, because I love the sport so much. Emmett always had a baseball mitt folded up on his dresser or nightstand, in every episode. But we never saw him playing baseball. In my mind, I had envisioned him throwing a ball around with his son one day. I always wanted to see Emmett as a dad, partly because his relationship with his dad was so strained. I wanted to see Emmett close to John and Angelo, but I realize now that's not ever going to happen. Travis and John are very close though. Their relationship could be great for Bay and John, if Bay starts dating Travis, like we suspect.

I agree

[ollibear]

Do you think John will be pro Bay and Travis?