ollibear

Thank you so much, Essa, for being part of the discussion! I appreciate your empathy, too.

Today, I've been feeling a little sick to my stomach and heartbroken over this story, and your kindness makes a difference.

I thought the paternity test John did five years ago was a nice foil for Angelo's paternity test 17 years ago. Both men thought their partners had cheated on them. Angelo was confrontational and demanded the truth from Regina. He said that he could forgive her, if she would only tell him the truth. But when Angelo didn't believe what Regina told him (which was the truth), she ordered him to leave. Whereas John never even shared with Kathryn that he had suspected and "confirmed" her indiscretion. He just accepted what she'd "done" all those years ago and decided to love her and the child anyway. That's a strong and mature human being, if you ask me, and that's the text book definition of real love. It's why I've always felt that Bay & Emmett could get back together, after their mistakes, because when you really love someone, then that love is unconditional. It doesn't matter whether you trust them or not, because you trust yourself, and you know your love for them is true.

I liked the scenes between Kathryn and Daphne, too. They were poignant. I also like the scenes between Kathryn and Bay. It's beautiful the way Bay allows herself to be vulnerable with Kathryn.

As for John, I think he just understands Daphne's goals better than he ever understood Bay or Toby's goals. He gave that same exact speech to Toby in the batting cage when Toby was trying to tell him that he wasn't going to give up his music career. He told Toby, "I just don't know how to help you in that world." Why would the writers repeat the same story for Bay?

Regina was her typical self-centered self. I like her with Eric or Luca, but I don't care about either relationship. I didn't feel anything when she talked to Bay or Daphne. I'm numb to anything to do with Regina. You are right about Regina not being Will's guardian. Why would Eric leave his impressionable son for three years anyway? Those are important years for a tween.

I agree with every word you said about Bay, Travis, and Emmett. The boys were never shown to be close, and the idea of Emmett following Travis to Tokyo is ludicrous. In an interview today, Lizzy Weiss added to Bay's Thanksgiving promise and said the three of them will spend every Thanksgiving together for the rest of their lives. WTF?

I agree about Melody & Gabe and Toby & Lily. No reason to care, although I am sad Toby now wants to give up music. For some reason, it feels as though Weiss writes women to douse men's passions more often than not. I hate to seek that.

teaholic

I have so much to say about this episode, but I just wanted to respond to this quickly. I had the same reaction as you about both Regina and Melody, but then I thought about it, and I think it might be realistic. It's not great, and I don't think it's a wise decision for either of these women (although way worse in Regina's case), but I think it makes some psychological sense. Maybe they feel like they screwed up with their own biological children, and rather than untangle the mess in those relationships and have to deal with the anger, resentment, and disappointment that their children probably feel (again, obviously way more in Bay's case than in Emmett's), they would like to make up for it by starting fresh with another child who sees them as being perfect, and with whom they have a clean slate.

I know a person like this in real life, a man. He was pretty uninvolved in his first daughter's upbringing and kind of neglected her, especially after he divorced her mother. But with his second daughter, he was an absolutely doting father from the get-go, even after divorcing her mother, and fought a hard custody battle to make sure he could be deeply involved in her life. At the time this was happening, the eldest daughter was still a teenager and could have used her father in her life, but there was some bitterness and hurt that he would have had to overcome; whereas the second daughter was very young and thought her daddy was perfect. Guess what? He continued to ignore the eldest daughter, to the point she ended up changing her last name to her mother's, whereas his relationship with the youngest daughter continues to be really close.

ollibear

That's a good point! I never thought about it that way. If that's what the writers were aiming for, then I wish they would have shown Regina and Melody feeling insecure as parents at some point. They both seem so confident. Also, why didn't Regina or Melody want a chance for a redo with a young child? Why are they both choosing children that are grown or almost grown.

But still, food for thought! That could be one reason for Regina and Melody reaching out to Travis, Matthew, and Will.

Wes&FredFan

I didn't ship Emmett and Bay. In fact I was definitely in the minority around this board, but I still posted for a while. Even when I felt my interest in the show slipping away.

I was glad that Bay didn't end up with Emmett in the end, but I truly empathize with those who rooted for them. I liked her with Travis and felt that ending with them was the way to go. I liked that Bay and Emmett had a convo at the end, and he rode off on his motorcycle a la James Dean, which is how Bay referred to him earlier in the series. It seemed like they were doing a salute to Dawson's Creek, where Joey and Dawson tell each other they're soulmates, even though she ends up happily with Pacey in the end. Not very original, but I shipped P/Jo too so I was happy with that ending.

The Toby/Lily story stalled on me a while ago, but I like that Toby learned that there are different levels of retardation with Downs Syndrome and Carlton's life might be different than the one he feared.

John getting a paternity test and staying wasn't a big bombshell. Just shows that he thought Kathryn had cheated on him, but still loved her to raise Bay as his.

I understand the betrayal that Bay/Emmett fans feel though. They were jerked around the entire series. To add insult to injury, the final song that played was the same one Emmett and Bay slept together to, so that deliberate "gotcha" must have been painful. I figured that Daphne would end up with Emmett if they weren't going the Bay/Emmett route, since Melody and Daphne were always so close anyway. I was always indifferent to Mingo/Daphne. I was looking for an Emmett/Daphne scene since they're supposed to be best friends. They spent way too much time on the whole "bombshell" and Regina/Luca breakup. I can't even remember the last time Melody and Regina had a scene together, and they're supposed to be best friends as well.

For a show that started off like gangbusters and that I looked forward to watching to one that I didn't care if I missed ... sad. But since there's another ship I have from a different fandom that is the writers' favorite play thing to beat around and screw up, I know all-too-well how it feels when you as a fan are tortured and put through the ringer of horrible storylines.

Best wishes to all on this board and I hope to see you around .

griselda

I would rather see Bay and Emmett together.
Emmett following his directorial career.
As she is with Travis because he is a player of baseball-I mean that John was and sometimes people choose as couples who resemble their parents-

~Janice~

Loved the show, sorry to see it end.

Erinღ

I finally watched the finale and wow, I'm so sad knowing it's over. I only started watching the show because one day I was struggling through a depressing break-up and just needed something new to watch while browsing netflix. I hit watch now and an addiction began this was only a couple of years ago so I was lucky enough to binge watch through the first 3 seasons and it went by so quick

Now to the negative things.
I went into this finale with my expectations low not just because the show was declining in quality but also because the last 9 episodes were just not great at all. So it made me extremely hesitant for the finale and I felt I was right.
I'll kind of explain what went wrong in my opinion.

+ There was simply too much crammed into one episode.
We went bouncing around from one character to the other and then another and another and then we had to go back over again the same way to tie up the loose ends. Why couldn't they begin tying up these loose ends a couple of episodes before? This would have been beneficial not just to the show writers but even more so for fans!

+ They showed characters that I flat out did not care about
I'll be as nice as I can about this but I can't stand Matthew. Not only was he irrelevant but I will never be okay with the way he catfished, humiliated, blackmailed and assaulted Emmett and got away with it because Matthew was in the closet. I don't care if you're gay, bi, or straight dude, you don't get a pass for doing these things and suffering no consequences; at least not from me. I was angry when Bay and Natalie talked Emmett out of reporting him because he wanted to and certainly had every right to. So seeing his face on my screen on the FINALE really annoyed me because he took up screen-time that I would have rather seen go to someone else, like a MAIN character. Again, if they just had to have him, why not do it in the earlier episodes?! I wouldn't like that much either but I'll tell you what, I would take that over his appearance in the finale.

+ Iris
UGH! I really couldn't stand this chick through out her entire appearance on the show, only in this finale was she a good friend to Daphne (for ONCE) but I'm also so annoyed that Mingo had to apologize for following the rules of dressing up as his favorite artist at a COSTUME PARTY. And if he had to apologize to her then he certainly should get one back after the way she treated him before this incident even started. This girl hated Mingo from the start because he had "the nerve" to be honest with Daphne by telling her he didn't want anything serious and that he simply was having fun. I get that it hurt Daphne and Iris wanted to protect her friend but not even after Mingo changed his mind and proved himself to be an incredible boyfriend to Daphne, she absolutely gave him the cold shoulder and abandoned Daphne as her friend. She was very snotty and rude and she ruined about 5 of those episodes this season.


+ Bay/Travis Relationship
I like Travis, and I love Bay. So for a quite a while I was questioning to myself that if I like them both as individuals then why can't I seem to get behind them as a couple? And I think I've figured it out. Not only just because Bay and Emmett will always rank over any other pairings in the show but also because Bay and Travis only began dating recently. They first kissed in the finale, and then we only got to see their dynamic for these last 10 episodes. This just doesn't leave enough time to decide whether I think they are good for each other or not. But with that said, I still have always had a difficult time getting behind them because it seemed like Bay only saw them as friends and was so caught off guard by that kiss (though to be fair, she did kiss him back). I think she had been going through so much heart break from Emmett that sometimes it feels good to have another person flatter and compliment you and think the world of you. The pain of heart break lessens a little bit and things don't feel so bleak. Please know that I'm simply stating my interpretation, I don't want any shippers of Bay/Travis to feel put down or offended. I could be wrong, but I feel this makes more sense in my mind.

+ Bay/Emmett Relationship
The only thing they got right here was that beautiful flash back montage because seeing some of the best Bemmett moments at once was such a shot to my heart and made me think "how could they still not be endgame after showing all of that beautiful history?!" I mean they did show the bad moments between them toward the end so I'll give them that. When I think of Bay and Emmett, I think strong history, special, true loves, timelines, conquered learning the same language just so that they could be together, and as Emmett once stated, a power couple.
With Bay and Travis, I don't see or feel any connection that is remotely the same. I have always felt like a guy like Travis wouldn't "excite" Bay (not saying implying sexually, can't really judge things that happen off screen) quite like Emmett did. Everytime I see them, I always get the impression that Bay is with him because he's been so good to her. Kind of like she may have fell in love with the idea of comfort, and feeling safe knowing that Travis won't hurt her because he adores her. I base this on two scenes in particular.

- The first being after her and Travis's first kiss in the S4 finale. She's talking to Daphne at the hospital waiting for baby Carlton to be born and Bay kind of gushes about him being a good kisser and Daphne asks her if she's considering him because he's the "best' guy and she's not sure.

- The first example wouldn't really matter had it not been for this second scene. And that would be right after Emmett tells her he should have never let her go. Bay again, turns to Daphne and she talked about how that confession made her heart leap, but feels badly to admit that because Travis is so amazing (this isn't verbatum, just paraphrasing) and it almost reads to me that she still loved and wanted to be with Emmett but felt badly about breaking Travis's heart, and also she did not want to cause an even bigger rift between Emmett and Travis as she was already feeling gulty enough. So she may have felt a little stuck but I'm completely willing to say that I could be dead wrong.


+ Bay/John
It was heart breaking to watch Bay's expression going from feeling proud of herself to feeling like she'll never be good enough as John praised Daphne for her upcoming accomplishments as a doctor. Then having to him insult her passion and call t nothing short of a dead end. I mean I am glad that this was addressed because it always seemed to me like Bay was everyone's red-headed step-child who let Daphne get away with quite a bit even in the time Bay took the blame for Daphne herself. However, again I wish this had been dealt with sooner because the John/Bay storyline started and ended so fast since they only had one episode left. I kind of hoped that maybe Daphne would step in and come to her defense a little bit but I don't blame her really, eh, I think she's hesitant to argue with John because she seems to have a great bond with him and feels like one wrong move and it could come crashing down. I get John's perspective in the way that every parent wants to see their child go to college and get a good education and an even better job, but we're 5 seasons in and he still acts surprised that Bay is a person that marches to the beat of her own drum?

+ Regina...Ugh
I hate Regina, always have and always will. Sorry to anyone that loves her. But she was absolutely an attrocious parent to Bay so much so that I am actually prepared to make a gifset or two off all the times she screwed Bay over, and it wasn't even just Bay, she did some crap parenting with Daphne as well. So, poor Luca. We just had a few episodes ago where Regina suspected Luca of cheating, actually not susupected, she took it as fact and stalked the guy she talks about how much he wants to scream or cry before she knows anything. Then, Eric comes back into the picture and is making out with him within the firt 5 seconds of seeing him again! Like...what? Then we're supposed to be sympathetic for her because she's just too guilty to tell Luca. Well, I did feel sympathy, for Luca. He can do better.

+ Bay/Regina
Did anyone's heart shatter at Bay's tearful expression as Regina announces her plans to move out to go be with Will, who is someone else's kid? It was like a direct paralell to the moment in S4 when Bay finds out she's moving out and only tells Daphne (a common theme) and Regina says something along the lines of "I didn't know it would matter this much" and a tearful Bay say's "of course it matters, you're my mom". Ugh, very sad. And it's just another moment where Will comes before Bay. First a trumpet recital, now a mother figure for two years. I'm not trying to say that she shouldn't take care of Will while Eric does the right thing, but had Regina been a better parent to Bay then maybe it wouldn't be so hard for me to get behind her on this.

+ Bay/Emmett (part II)
It's fine for them not to be endgame (although I strongly preferred this) but seeing that go to Bay and Travis instead just doesn't seem real. I don't understand why we were given so many moments between Bay/Emmett that would hint at endgame or true love such as...

- Bay telling Daphne how Emmett's confession made her heart leap because she had been waiting for him to want her back
- The tattoo project they both decided to keep a secret
- The very obvious looks given to one another during said tattoo scene and talking about old times that were so special
- The scene where Bay tells Travis goodnight and then actually goes to see Emmett right when he sends a text
- And of course in the finale, that little montage of all the memories and history


Anyway that's all I've got for now. I did see that there is a thread about the board closing and I completely understand why most are leaning toward this being something that should happen, so Amy and anyone else who would be interested, I did promise to make over the Bay/Vanessa OP and while I did not get around to doing much, I DID get the banner finished! So if anyone is interested, I'll be posting it in the Bay/Vanessa thread just so anyone who was curious wanted to see it