ollibear

I was right. I cannot believe it, and yet, I can. I think that I have a good feel for what Lizzy Weiss will do. I predicted Angelo's death weeks before it happened, and I also predicted that Tank would "rape" Bay, although I no longer believe that's what happened at all.

All three of my predictions came from small hints in the promos or slight inflections of voice in interviews. Things that gave me an inkling of what might occur.

You are right about Lizzy Weiss's love of the hate-turns-to-love trope.

• Travis and Daphne exchanged words before sparks flew.
• Regina and Wes did the same.
• Tank and Bay sparred a bit. He annoyed her anyway, before they ever kissed.
• Toby and Lily out-and-out yelled at each other, before they fell into bed.
• Chef Jeff and Daphne had an adversarial relationship, before they seduced each other.
• Daphne and Mingo had a war, before he wooed her.
• Natalie and Bay were arch enemies, before becoming the best of friends.
• Sharee and Daphne were the same.
• Tess and Bay were the same.
• Emmett and Travis may not have been arch enemies, but they disliked each other immensely, until Daphne explained to Emmett that Travis's parents had kicked him out of their home (although later, we learned that was not true).

Even Travis and Bay fall into this trope, as he did not like her when first meeting her. He only helped her with the money from the safe, because she was John's daughter. Later, Travis did not want Bay at Carlton, at all.

I wish the wedding had not happened, too, although, with the show ending, I guess it doesn't matter.

I did like the moment when Lily was able to laugh at herself and say, "No, I only yell in the middle of wedding ceremonies with our entire family watching." That was cute and self-deprecating. I liked it.

I also liked that even though Toby and Lily were both furious at each other during the ceremony, neither one of them was about to call it off. That's love, and it is confidence in their love. Plus, it reminds me of the first time they had sex. It seems to be their routine now.

Toby and Lily aren't my favorite couple. I'd still rather have seen Toby with someone like Simone, who really loved him. But I can accept Toby and Lily and hope they make it as a couple. They have the potential to be good for each other, because they each have something the other is lacking. It could provide a good balance for them, as long as one or the other doesn't fall out of love.

Bay is all over the place with Tank, which I suppose could be true-to-life, but for viewers wanting some closure, it's really annoying.

Bay did pull back from Travis quite a bit this episode. Turning down his offer to spend the night with her speaks volumes as to her feelings about him.

It seems as though Travis was someone with whom Bay enjoyed having sex, while on vacation. But now that Bay is home, she doesn't seem as attracted to Travis. I guess we will see what happens between them. Perhaps it is just her feelings for Emmett getting in the way, and if Bay is able to put those behind her, then maybe Travis can be The One.

But even Travis was regretting his time spent in China, in the next episode. It would appear neither of them see the other as their soulmate.

Who knows? My intuition tells me that Bay and Travis won't end the series as a couple, no matter what else happens (or doesn't happen) with Emmett.

I agree. Bay lying to Travis and immediately texting Emmett devastated me. It has taken me nearly two weeks to even be able to respond to this thread. It upset me THAT much.

Really, and truly, that moment broke my heart.

I wanted to believe that Bay had learned some kind of a lesson, after she betrayed Emmett, and hurt him as deeply as she had, at that dorm party. It shocked me to see that Bay could be as callous with Travis's heart, as she had been with Emmett's.

Didn't she learn anything from that experience?

But in the next episode, it appears she did finally put two and two together. I was so proud of Bay for finally telling Emmett that they could not be friends any more. (As a side note, I know another fan in his twenties, who was devastated by that scene. He lost respect for Bay, whereas I gained respect for her. It's interesting how people can have such different perspectives on every issue.)

I didn't see Lily's decision not to let Kathryn put Carlton to bed as part of her momzilla persona. Like you, that's just something normal to me.

I was happy Toby was gambling again. It's something we have begged to see on this board. I am only sad that we won't have time to explore it, because it has the potential to be such a good story for his character. I wish we had gotten the last 10 episodes of Season 5 from Freeform. I feel as though the writers may have explored Toby's gambling arc more, if we had. Without the extra 10 episodes, it's kind of silly to even open the door to it, because it will probably have such a quick fix. (It's the same with Emmett's depression.)

I'm not looking to debate either. I respect your opinion, but I feel differently from you, on this topic. I do not see Tank as guilty of anything at all.

To me, unless a society is going to outlaw all sex under the influence of alcohol, then it is impossible for that society to say that people under the influence of alcohol cannot give legal consent.

I support the law saying that an unconscious person cannot consent to sex. It's a good law.

I support the law saying that a person who cannot speak in complete sentences cannot consent to sex. That's a good law, too.

And of course, if anyone indicates "no" with words or gestures, then they have not consented to sex.

But I disagree with any law saying that someone who is under the influence of alcohol, but who is also conscious and able to speak in complete sentences, cannot consent to sex. The only way I would agree to that law is if ALL sex between people under the influence of alcohol is illegal.

I'd rather live in a world that respects the right of adults to take the risk, though.

We know from the script and from interviews with Lizzy Weiss that 1) Bay was conscious throughout the sex. 2) Bay was able to speak in complete sentences. 3) Bay didn't indicate "no" at any point. 4) Bay was acting as though she was into the act.

To convict a man of rape for having sex with a woman under those four circumstances, just because she happened to be making decisions under the influence of alcohol, is unfair. The only way that would be fair is if all sexual intercourse under the influence of alcohol is forbidden by law.

I thought Travis was horrible to Mary Beth, especially considering their history and the trust she had given him in the past. I lost even more respect for Travis in that scene. It reminded me of the moment that Travis told Bay he did not want her at Carlton, but at least Bay wasn't someone who had ever given her heart to Travis, in that scene.

I agree with you about Bay flat out lying to Travis and going to see Emmett. That was awful to watch. I am completely in Travis's corner on that one. Bay was despicable in that moment. It was the same thing she did to Emmett, when she dated him. It was the same thing she did to Tank, when she dated him. It was the same thing she did to Ty, when she dated him.

It's the first time I have ever lost all respect for Bay. Even when she texted Skye from Emmett's cell phone, I could still respect Bay. I knew that she was hurting. I understood Bay when she slept with Emmett, while dating Tank, too. And I understood her, when she slept with Tank, while dating Emmett.

But watching Bay lie to Travis and drive off to see Emmett made me lose all respect for her. I am so glad Bay made it clear to Emmett in the next episode that they cannot be friends anymore.

Finally, Bay seems to understand loyalty. My respect for her returned. (It was really only gone for a moment anyway. It was just hard for me to watch her drive off to see Emmett, after she had just lied to Travis.)

Yes, I agree! I feel the same way about John playing matchmaker AND about Regina and Luca's future together.

Luca is cute. I don't really care to see Regina with him (or with anyone), but I will like getting to know Luca. Maybe he could even be something of a father figure to both Daphne and Bay. I'd like that, now that Angelo is gone.

I addressed my thoughts about sex under the influence of alcohol up above.

I don't see as Mary Beth made a poor choice, but I do agree that Bay's attitude towards Tank is tiresome.

If Bay wants to choose the perspective that will most empower her, she will choose to believe that Tank did not rape her. It would give Bay strength to accept responsibility for what happened and to feel in control of her destiny.

The next most empowering perspective is for Bay to believe that Tank did rape her and to move on with her recovery from there. That choice also allows Bay to feel in control of her destiny.

The least empowering perspective is to vacillate between the two perspectives. Bay has no control over anything with that way of looking at the world. She cannot take responsibility. She cannot forgive and move on with her life. She is stuck in a quagmire.

I hope something happens to change that soon for Bay.

I like Bay & Emmett, too.

I don't see how the condom has anything to do with it.

At Occidental College, in the real-life incident that inspired the Bay and Tank sexual consent storyline, the girl is the one who texted several times to make sure that the boy had a condom.

She showed up at his dorm, after her friends had dragged her away twice.

On her last trip to his dorm, she texted her friends that she was going to lose her virginity to him. She went on to have sex with him that night. Someone even walked in on them during the act, and she was the one on top of him.

The next day, she remembered nothing. She accused him of raping her, because she was drunk. Her professor had told her that drunk people cannot consent.

The boy was expelled from school (and not allowed admission into any other university), when he was just as drunk as her and he does not remember anything about the evening either.

How is that fair?

Aw, thanks! I feel as though I know Lizzy Weiss's writing really well now, but I still got lucky to guess this one.

I could see one or the other of the two girls not using social media. It's not too hard for me to believe that they might have lost touch. Mary Beth seems like a private person.

I do agree that it was an immature reaction, just like Daphne being surprised about pre-med not waiting for her.

Yes, to all of this!

I agree. It doesn't make sense the way it was written, for all of the reasons you point out.

Yes, I was happy about this turn of events. We have brought up the topic on this board that it was unrealistic Toby would just be cured.

I wish we had more time to explore his addiction, but oh, well. I suppose that's the least of my heartache over unexplored storylines on this TV series. The writers dropped the ball on so much.

Yes, I agree with all of this! I felt the same way.

I was super impressed with Toby telling Lily that no father would ever feel like a failure as a parent because he didn't want to stay home full time with his child.

I respected their relationship more after their conversation. It was well-written. The only thing missing, for me, is that the acting wasn't quite as convincing as I would have liked it to be, when they discussed their fears for their son's future.

Both actors threw the lines out there, but I didn't feel as though either one of them was truly feeling any fear. It was weird.

Yes! I am sick of all of this.

Part of it is the family's fault for babying Daphne. Bay does it, too, maybe worse than anyone else, especially as of late. I would love one scene this season where Bay gets furious with Daphne and blames her for losing Emmett.

But we will never get that. The writers have bonded the girls together, and even if they fight, Bay will never accuse Daphne of costing her the relationship with Emmett. Unfortunately, I don't even think Bay's old relationship with Emmett means that much to her anymore. It's just something to remember with nostalgia now.

Back when Bay was mourning its loss, I wish she had let Daphne really have it, at least once.

Emmett used to baby Daphne, too, in the very beginning. But he quickly gave it up in order to be loyal to Bay.

I wish Daphne's family would stop treating her like a china doll. It makes me dislike Daphne, and that's unfortunate.

Yep, it was difficult for me to watch. It almost made me feel like giving up on the show. I have a hard time watching characters repeat mistakes over and over again, with zero growth.

At least, Bay grew a little in the next episode.

That last episode was all about social media.

I wonder if Mary Beth knows what is happening with Daphne and Mingo. I wonder if Mary Beth will be brought into anything going on at the college. She should be, but I doubt that she will be.

I think Bay should feel as though she betrayed herself.

Bay knew Tank was in love with her. She knew that she had broken his heart. She knew that he never got over her and still wanted a relationship with her. Yet, Bay told Tank about all of her problems with Emmett. She flirted with him and made him feel as though she wanted him sexually. Then, she got drunk with him, and Bay's words and actions made Tank believe that she wanted to have sex with him. To me, nothing about this scenario is Tank's fault, unless society has decided to altogether outlaw sex under the influence of alcohol.

Travis did not leave Mary Beth, even after she indicated that what happened with Tank was Bay's fault. Mary Beth is the one who broke up with Travis, because he called her a "ball and chain" to his baseball buddies and indicated that he appreciated all of the attention that the girls were giving him on campus.

I agree.

I wouldn't mind seeing more of Mary Beth and Tank, but I don't need to see any more of them.

It's enough for me to know that they found some happiness together. The story does not call for any more exploration of their relationship.

I would like to hear Bay clarify, for the record, how she sees the incident. In her mind, was it rape? Was it drunken sex and cheating?

I just want to know how she finally processed the event. To me, even if the sex did not happen, Bay cheated on Emmett that evening. I would like for her to apologize to him for that, but we will probably never see it.

In the next episode, if Bay went to a party with another ex-boyfriend (say Emmett or Liam or Noah), and told him all about her big fight with Travis, and if she got drunk with that ex-boyfriend and sat on his lap, and ground her bottom into his crotch, wouldn't that be disloyal to Travis?

Why didn't most of the fans on social media feel as though Bay was disloyal to Emmett, when she did that with Tank? Why did Emmett get all of the blame, when he felt betrayed by Bay.

I don't get it.

You are right! That's exactly what they both said.

The show has been very careful with Bay's reactions and confusion about how to characterize what happened with Tank.

But while Bay's words did not condemn Tank, her anger in that moment with Mary Beth sure made it seem as though Bay was condemning him.

I also agree that Bay should be putting herself first. She gets into a lot of trouble, because she tries to deny herself something she wants, but then, she cannot stick to it.

I don't think she should call it rape, though, because to me, it is so far away from what I would eve consider as rape. If Bay was so drunk she could not speak, then I would agree. But she was talking quite a bit, in complete sentences. If a person is able to do that, and if sex under the influence of alcohol is legal, then I do not understand how could call that rape. It's one of those situations, in my mind, where the person who chose to get that drunk just has to accept the risk of possibly doing something that he or she would not have chosen to do, if sober.

If the writers had written the story so that Tank actually was a rapist, then it would have been poignant to watch Bay grow brave enough to come to terms with what had happened to her.

I disagree.

You can love someone in the way that Bay loves Travis and still recognize that the person is not the one with whom you are meant to be in a relationship forever.

There's nothing sick about two people outgrowing each other (or being right for each other for a short time, but not forever). To me, that's life.

I agree 100%.

Me, too. I should give Bay a break, too.

It's just tedious for me to watch her confusing, when I feel so strongly convicted about my own opinion on the subject.

Plus, if she could define the experience in one way or another, once and for all, then she might be able to move past it. I fear without adopting a perspective on the experience, she will continue to feel lost.

When Bay gave her statement to the college, she indicated that what Tank had chosen to do was not okay. Instead, I wish she had indicated that what THEY had chosen to do was not okay.

Both Bay and Tank chose to get so drunk that they lost their inhibitions. Because of that, Bay gave Tank every indication that she wanted to have sex with him, and no indication that she did not. If Bay and Tank had robbed a bank when they were that drunk, no one would be excusing Bay from responsibility for her actions. The same should be true for this situation, as well.

Me, too. Gosh, I would have loved to see Daphne finally feel her guilt.

It's an elephant in the room at this point. A shadow that follows Daphne where ever she goes.

I really need to see Daphne own up to the horror of what she did to Bay. I don't care if it was Bay's idea. Daphne should not have allowed Bay to make such a huge sacrifice.

I still don't think Bay took the blame so that Daphne could become a doctor. I know that Bay SAID that, but I feel Bay was too scared to go to LA with Emmett, and taking the fall for Daphne got her off the hook.

I don't like Ty with Bay. I feel like his relationship with her was even less sincere than her relationships with other suitors (i.e, Travis, Tank, and Noah). I think I could have enjoyed seeing Ty with Daphne, especially if he could have inspired her to act more maturely. But that storyline would have needed to happen before Bay slept with him.

I am uncomfortable with brothers and sisters switching sexual partners.

Even now, with Bay & Emmett, I find myself wondering why Emmett would want to be with Bay again, knowing she was with Travis sexually, or why Travis would want to be with her, knowing she was with Emmett.

It would be the same situation if Daphne had ever slept with either Emmett or Travis. Would Bay really want to sleep with either of them, knowing that they had been with her sister, too? Doesn't that feel too close for comfort?

From here on out, for the rest of their lives, whenever Emmett and Travis show up at a family function together, they are both going to be reminded that the other has had sex with Bay. That's not a big deal if neither one is with Bay anymore, but if one of them IS still with Bay, then it makes family functions awkward and uncomfortable.

Why do that to yourself?

After Episode 4, I can tell Travis is already insecure. If Travis and Bay stay together, he will always be looking over his shoulder whenever Emmett is in the room. And the same will be true for Emmett, too, if he and Bay somehow manage to rekindle their relationship.

In the future, at every family function, Emmett will always be looking at how Travis and Bay are interacting with each other and feeling uncomfortable about it. Yuck.

Why is Melody even a surrogate mother to Travis anyway? It was one thing to offer him a home during his senior year of high school. It's another thing to continue to put him ahead of her own biological son. And Melody does that on every turn.

No wonder Emmett is depressed. Both his mother and father put others ahead of him. Bay put others ahead of him. Daphne puts others ahead of him. Emmett has been disrespected by everyone on this show.

Is Emmett friends with Toby anymore? I don't think so. That must have fallen by the wayside when Toby asked Tank to move in with him.

Here, we have a depressed and suicidal Emmett, and I haven't seen a single character reach out to him. Both Bay and Travis tried to reach out to Emmett, but they both cut that contact off quickly.

Emmett is really on his own with this depression thing, but I guess that's okay. I don't think the writers are going to pay any attention to his storyline anyway.

~AnastasiaGrey~

I Just wish they didnt introduce that for Emmett and just threw it away like that. Mental issues isnt something to look over .

ollibear

I agree.

I saw that someone posted a tweet to Lizzy Weiss. In it, she said that watching all of Emmett's friends desert him in the wake of his depression makes her feel as though all of her friends will do that to her, too.

I never even thought about that aspect of it. It's so sad to think that someone might see the way Travis, Bay, and Daphne have treated Emmett since they returned from China and think that's how their friends will treat them, too.

As for this episode "Surprise," one of my all-time favorite TV shows is "Life Goes On" with Chris Burke. I have seen every episode several times and loved them all. But what Lizzy Weiss is doing with Toby and Lily's relationship and discussions over parenthood isn't touching me the way that "Live Goes On" moved me.

Switched at Birth is lacking depth this season. The writers are spread too thin, with Travis's sexual abuse, the black student union, Emmett's "non-existent" depression, and Toby & Lily's interfaith marriage.

I'd love to see an exploration of life with Down syndrome on TV again, but Switched at Birth cannot do it all, and by trying to do so much, they're left with not doing anything well.

I wish that the writers had explored Deaf culture in greater depth. That's truly where the writers did their best work in the first season and a half, and it all fell apart after they abandoned that story in the wake of the all-ASL episode.

The producers should have doubled down on their story and brought on some Deaf writers and directors. I wish that they had.