GrhmLz

Exactly. Kind of like her circumstances can draw sympathy but not she, herself, because she's just innately bad/evil. Meaning, her circumstances drew out the real person she is and how she chose to handle them.

LittlePixie

I don't particularly want the EQ to be redeemed but if she was I'd want it to be near the end of the season. I do want to know what made her evil and hate Snow so much, but I don't want them to try and make us overly sympathize with her, just sorta like we see why she's done it even if we don't agree with how far she's taken it

GrhmLz

^ I can actually sit well with her being redeemed in the end, if and only if, this show introduces the concept of a 'bigger bad' down the road!!! Kind of based off of what the EQ and Maleficient were discussing and how Maleficient expressed whoever created that dark curse made them look positively 'moral'? That's if it's not Rumplestiltskin and he actually got that curse from whoever it is too.

Rumpel Sylph's Kin

Interesting discussion. I am a fan of genuine redemption and win-win for the greater good rather than power play in the real world, but I also believe there is pure evil and utter void of humanity that is not redeemable. I doubt I would be willing to give Hitler, Stalin, Khomeini, Bin Laden, Jim Jones, etc. the opportunity to redress and reintegrate.

I totally agree that there should NEVER be any justification made for any of the evil perpetrated by the EQ or any evil literary character, although it's always great to understand the why. If there is redemption for the EQ, it has to be at the very end of the series and with redress and the ultimate sacrifice of her very being. it depends how the series evolves, and whether the writers will make the two worlds parallel or merge them metaphorically, or evolve any characters, etc. I don't see how a series can thrive without character development, so it's a wait see.

Heather, I like your theory about Catherine possibly being Cinderella's Charming's sister and the scenario you described. Even better than a stepsister. I would love to be in the room with those writers!

LittlePixie

Exactly, to me fairytales are about good over coming bad, it wouldn't make sense to redeem that EQ unless there was someone to take her place as big bad. You know, when I first watched the scene where the EQ is trying to figure out how to get the curse to work. I noticed it is never stated that Rumplestiltskin created the curse. Only that he was the one to give it to the EG. So it is possible that someone else created it and he stole it or something.

SaraSidleStokes

as someone who LOVES Disney Fairy tales I can tell you this is correct, Basically Cinderella's family (if you can call them that) was of High Society, when her Father died her Step Mother and Step Sisters made her a maid of sorts (in fact she got her name due to the fact that she was found by the fire place and the Cinder from it would get on her clothing), The sisters and the Mother did everything to keep her away from the Ball but then of course the Fairy God Mother shows up and she goes to the Ball thus meeting the prince, she only becomes Princess through Marriage.

Sansa

I think based on the 2nd episode, they totally setup a 'redemption' storyline for EQ. But not total redemption, I think they set it up so she will make the same choice at the end of her storyline that she did at the beginning. I think it's significant that she named her adopted son Henry and I believe in the end, or end of her storyline, she will have to make the same choice with Henry that she did with her father Henry.

Anyway XD

Rumpel Sylph's Kin

Oh that is interesting! Is it possible that this alternate reality for the fairy tale characters is giving them free choice they didn't have as written in the fairy tale world? So Regina is controlling and manipulative based on her nature but could choose to change before she gets to that point of no return, or end up repeating history so to speak?

GrhmLz

I suppose the question would come down to this: Where does an actual person start and where does true evil begin and end?! Are they meshed as one, in otherwords, does the person create the darkness inside themselves because it's already innately inborn or is it an outside force to be reckoned with, battled, and hopefully overcomed? Can even the worst of offenders, such as the ones you listed, come out from the darkest of natures to reform a dark or black soul or are they forever soulness?!

An interesting concept to dissect since Emma brought it up to Regina herself, when she wanted to know how she got that way. She told her she had no soul. Is it possibly true?! Did the EQ forever extinguish whatever hope was left for her in FTL, after she ignored her own father's warnings along with Malifcent's?!

I do like to stick to think redemption can be attained at any point in time; however, those with the darkest nature would have the hardest road ahead of themselves in order to get there.

yeah, the ideas we could let bounce off the walls. Glad you like.

MiAjeM3

I really love the discussion here!

I agree with you here. I think it's very interesting to understand why the evil characters (in real life or in fiction) are the way that they are. I actually hope that there is no ultimate redemption for the EQ/Regina, but I hope we continue to see why she is the way she is. Although she loved and deeply cared for her father, it still didn't stop her from cutting out his heart to use the dark curse. Her hatred of Snow outweighed her love for her father. I think it'll be very interesting where the series leads to and the fairy tales that they include and what stories they have for the characters. I already love how they're taking the well-known stories and putting their own spin on it.

You bring up a great point! I never thought about the real world giving the fairy tale characters the free choice. Maybe so. That'll be really interesting to see.

This reminds me of a line from Wicked, the musical - "Is born wicked? Or do they have wickedness thrust upon them?" that musical!

But, you brought up a number of good questions. I don't think anyone really knows. Of course, one is born the way he or she is, but can the upbringing change what is ultimately that person's destiny? I'm gonna bring up another HP reference - if Voldemort was cared for and loved by a mother and father as a child, would he have grown up to be evil? It's a bunch of games of what-ifs. And that's a part of what makes it all so fascinating.

And as for the EQ, maybe after her love died, she was set on the path toward darkness. With the killing of her father, she completely gave up her soul. And I agree with you that those with the darkest nature have the hardest road ahead.

Rumpel Sylph's Kin

I could sink my teeth into this kind of discussion but is it too heavy for this board?

I think there are two factors at play, the psychological and the metaphysical.

Psychologically, nature vs. nurture is a longstanding debate. I think it's a combination. If your nature is to be deceitful but your parents teach you honesty and you learn the payoff is bigger and that's what you choose, and then you choose it again and again, that becomes your nature, like driving a car is awkward at first and can become second nature. If your nature is honesty and you get punished for telling the truth you learn it's not safe and there's a payoff to lying in safety, and choosing deceit the first time leads to it being easier the next time and easier and easier and finally your nature. I think habits and the synoptic pathways we create may not be possible to overcome at some point. I can key at 80 words a minute after many years doing it but if they move all the letters on the keyboard around, I would probably hunt and peck for the rest of my life and forever endure a great struggle to try to earn a living doing what I do. It's so much harder to unlearn and then relearn than just to learn to begin with. So I don't think redemption is necessarily always possible. I think there is a point of no return.

I don't know if the queen still has a soul and is therefore redeemable. She suffers, and she wants to be loved even though she doesn't know how to love, so does that mean she has a soul? Either way, what we put out can never be taken back even if we do change courses (jump to another "universe") by making different choices. What Hitler and Bin Laden put out is so heinous that they need to be gone for healing to take place amid the rest of humanity, regardless of whether they possibly could be redeemed.

GrhmLz

I do believe this is the widely held perception of basic humankind, because some things are so heinous and beyond comprehension - but I do not necessarily find it to be the case from the standpoint of a higher power. I hold to that especially if it is true about the darkness being an outside force that has superior influence and is ultimately responsible for leading astray, using others, very 'weak' others, like puppets. The 'darkness' will never change itself, never cease to exist or repent away from foul ways, but I think the puppet always can. I think it's just a matter of choice, a matter of it being that they won't always do it, even though the chance to do so is always in existence. I could try and explain what I mean more adequately but I'd probably detour off into a whole other discussion regarding different belief systems, so I'll just leave it at that.

Just for the purposes of OUAT, though, I think in theory Regina/EQ could be redeemable. I just think she will likely succumb to the dark by her own choices, instead of choosing another path. And for the purposes of a Good v. Evil battle, it would make sense if she's the 'representation' of the dark that will be overcome at the end, in order to restore 'happy endings.'

Rumpel Sylph's Kin

So true, Heather, it does get into different belief systems, and whether we believe in a good or evil power outside ourselves, or whether we believe in humans being a part of the greater consciousness, i.e. a "cell" of "God". Also in some belief systems like Kabbalah, Satan is not evil, but simply the necessary challenger to help the weak or the puppet to self-actualize.

I am intrigued whether Regina and all these characters are, through the curse, being given a chance to make different choices. It's just a marvelous premise that the writers can take in so many directions, and on a lighter level, just plain fun to watch play out.

LittlePixie

I think we should designate this the complex discussion thread or something, where we analysis meaning behind things. With the show coming from the same people who made Lost I think we're gonna need a thread like this.

My belief is that it is both nature and nurture, that each of us is born with the capability for good and bad, some maybe with more of one then the other. But that it is the side that is encourage to grow that ultimately wins out.

As for the redemption and whether the EQ is capable of it. I think you are always capable of being redeemed but you have to want to be and there comes a point where a person loses and desire to be. I think for the EQ that was the murder of her father, because if you think about it, it she were to be redeemed she would have to live with the guilt of all she's done. Right now she regards her father's death as necessary and I don't think she would be willing to admit to herself that it wasn't. So basically she can't stop what she is doing because to do so would be worse for her then continuing on this doomed path.

Now maybe she could be, but I'm pretty sure it would involve her death if it did happen

MiAjeM3

That sounds good. I think this is where it's leading anyway.

I agree. Choice is a big factor in a lot of decisions and I personally think that's where nurture comes in. I think that you'll always have that nature vs. nurture debate and no matter what is truly in your essence, the circumstances that surround you play a part in your choices and decisions.

So, with the EQ, we've seen that she is capable of love, but whatever circumstances life handed to her caused her to have hate and evil completely consume her soul. Is she capable of redemption? Yes, I think so. The second episode set up a possible redemption storyline that could involve Regina and Henry. I hope they don't end up redeeming her, but it could happen.

Me too. I think it's good that the writers already have the background of the fairy tale characters, so most people know the stories. But with a chance to make different choices, it makes the fairy tale characters more 3-dimensional.