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Old 11-20-2014, 12:35 PM
  #166
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DR76; Good point about how these characters' societal viewpoints may have impacted their behavior.
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Old 11-20-2014, 12:41 PM
  #167
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I understood it that Snow and Charming were running both Leopold's and George's kingdoms jointly together. Snow and Charming weren't even officially/ publically married at that time because she referred to him as her fiance (even though we all know Lancelot married them privately). He was "the prince" because he was publically considered George's son and the presumed ruler of that Kingdom because George had been deposed. It was not because he was Snow's husband because most of the kingdom (or even all but Lancelot) didn't know they were married. Also they were in George's castle at the time so he would be the Prince ruling the kingdom of which Regina was housed as a prisoner. I don't think we can necessarily presume a patriarchal society based on the interchange between Snow and Regina from 2.10. From other things, yes but not that one.
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Old 11-20-2014, 01:03 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace52373 (View Post)
I was thinking before she became frozen he should have been honest with Marian. She is a good woman who does not deserve this.

As to Milah, she was selfish and superficial in my mind! Preferring an adventure with skeevy pirates over her adorable son and the brave man who provided for them just boggles my mind. Rumple crippling himself was not cowardly. He put his son first before anything. I don't want to argue about Milah anymore because it's pointless. I never said she deserved death at the hands of a cursed Rumple. What she did deserve was a bitch slap and a few nights in jail to straighten out her priorities. She left her child home alone and hungry to go drinking. I know she was miserable, I felt bad that they couldn't leave but her actions put her in the worst possible light. There is a difference in judging a person and judging what they do. What she did was wrong! Bae could have gotten hurt, he was scared because he was alone and he was only four. He needed care and Miss I am married to a coward was too busy listening to Hook's stupid stories to care that her son needed her! She never loved Bae and I think she only said she would return out of fear! Milah loved herself. She is like that woman who because her boyfriend rejected her because she had kids, killed one and hurt the other two. Bae and Rumple were obstacles to her. She planned to run off with Hook before she asked Rumple to move so I doubt if he said yes that would have changed and she even said it herself what she was planning. Rumple may not have had the means to leave and Bae had friends in the village. Whose to say the past wouldn't have caught up to him. I bet if Rumple was married to Belle, she wouldn't have done to him what Milah did!

Also, Milah said to Rumple she never loved him. yes she was kind at first until he got home and than she was all about herself and just because we didn't see all her past doesn't mean she didn't verbally abuse him! Rumple doesn't think he is unlovable for no reason!

Milah deserves disdain for neglecting her son and abusing her husband! There is nothing wrong with standing by your husband unless he abuses you or commits a crime. Rumple made a mistake with the best of intentions and he was good to that witch! So the neighbor's disdained them like my mom always says until they pay your bills, they have no say over how you live your life. I would have just told them off and carried on with my family. She made selfish choices and I am glad Rumple moved on to find a beautiful woman who truly loves him.
Well, it is very difficult to make judgments about someone. At least I could explain my point. I really haven't seen serious problems in their family. Come on, they were some sort of happy. Well, obviously that was not the true love and Milah just realise and reveal that to the Dark One.

Secondly, I am supporter of the fact that you should love yourself first and then the rest of the people, including your family. If you do not love yourself and promote you at first you won't be able to deliver the best. In that way, I am happy that Milah followed her dreams. But parallel with this I felt sorry for Bay.

Thirdly, I really do support the fact that Rump left the army. However, if you remember well, Milah advised him to not go there. He went to prove a point and he did not stand up for himself. That was what she blame him for.

Finally, people are strange creatures. We do somethings absolutely irregular with all the appropriate society manners and that the way it is. I support that fact and always love to do it. Because of that I cannot blame Milah, it's not fear from my side.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:04 PM
  #169
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Being a crap mom doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you a bad mom. Same goes for being a crap husband/wife. Judging a characters entire personality based on brief (one-sided) glimpses of their parental/marital missteps just doesn't sit well with me. Robin might be a horrible husband because of his recent choices, but I don't see him as a bad person because of it.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:33 PM
  #170
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Enough guys. I already said we veered off topic. We need to stick to the episode discussion or myself or Cam will close the thread
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:01 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhonwen (View Post)
he never believed he did though. He always says that fate is fate, and he thinks this si what he's fated for
I think both him and Regina have the same questions about themselves. They look at themselves, and they can't get past the darkness. It's hard for them because it is about fighting every single day to nor fall back into old habits. Regina has been evil for 3 decades at least, and Rumple for who knows how many centuries. This doesn't change all of a sudden. We all tend to forget that.

The way I see it, all reformed villains, at least once, flirt with the darkness again. Regina did it back in season 2. She began the season determined to become good for Henry, but no one believed in her, not even Henry. She was just beginning, and Cora offered her a possibility of getting Henry back, and she fell unto the darkness again, only to come back stronger. With all her faults, now, I would find extremely hard to believe Regina would back track in her redemption.

The same can happen to Rumple. His redemption started when he believed Neal died because of him. This is his first test, and he failed, just like Regina did in season 2. I think it is entirely possible he comes back from this stronger, as Regina did, but it won't be easy. Regina found strength when she started to let people in, in Neverland. Little by little there were more people accepting her believing in her. It started with Henry, but then there was Emma, and then Snow, and Tinkerbell, even Belle, and finally Robin. Now she is considered in the good guys team, and they all worry about her and they all care. She is not alone any more.

Rumple hasn't let anyone in, not even Belle, not completely, and until he does, it will become harder to stay in the good path. Had he opened up himself to others, and connected, I doubt he would have been so easily tempted. But I believe he might change, in time, as soon as he able to trust others and talk about what prompted him to fall back into his old patterns of behavior.

Last edited by lianamed; 11-20-2014 at 04:11 PM
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:24 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Austenphile (View Post)
I understood it that Snow and Charming were running both Leopold's and George's kingdoms jointly together. Snow and Charming weren't even officially/ publically married at that time because she referred to him as her fiance (even though we all know Lancelot married them privately). He was "the prince" because he was publically considered George's son and the presumed ruler of that Kingdom because George had been deposed. It was not because he was Snow's husband because most of the kingdom (or even all but Lancelot) didn't know they were married. Also they were in George's castle at the time so he would be the Prince ruling the kingdom of which Regina was housed as a prisoner. I don't think we can necessarily presume a patriarchal society based on the interchange between Snow and Regina from 2.10. From other things, yes but not that one.

I can. I think the Enchanted Forest was basically a patriarchal society. I mean . . . Leopold having Regina confined to her bedroom, because he suspected she might be cheating on him?


I'm not going to vilify Robin for being "a terrible husband" because he slipped up once. At least he's not a serial cheater. And the person he cheated with was the woman he loved. If he had been cheating on Marian since their wedding, and if his one night stand with Regina was merely about lust and nothing else, then yeah . . . I would have viewed him as a lousy husband. And I also believe that the reasons he didn't break away from Marian at the beginning of the season was: a) she had just arrived in the present and was disoriented; and b) he probably believed that he had no choice but to choose Marian over Regina, due to his marriage vows. I have never seen a couple get divorced in the Enchanted Forest. And I suspect that Robin believed he had no way of ending his marriage to Marian.

However . . . that is how I feel. I'm sure that some or many of you feel differently. To each his or her own, I guess.


And why is it that the subject of Regina's relationship with Robin seems to dominate the discussion of this episode more than anything else? Their romance is basically a subplot, in compare to the story about Ingrid's attempt to cast her own curse and Rumpel's attempt to acquire Emma's power via the hat.
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Last edited by DR76; 11-20-2014 at 04:32 PM
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Old 11-20-2014, 05:43 PM
  #173
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Honestly, I really don't think Robin is a horrible or terrible husband...just a guy in a difficult position who's making some questionable decisions. Now if he's dishonest with Marian after she's defrosted, then I'll feel differently.
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Old 11-20-2014, 11:35 PM
  #174
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This thread has already just had a warning on topic, so don't continue said off-topic discussions after the warning has been given. The discussions should be about the spieode and stuff related to the episode (and not only tangibly so).
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Old 11-21-2014, 04:47 AM
  #175
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Thanks Miss Cam!

Well for a devastating episode we sure learned a lot in 2 hours. We also are left with a lot of questions!
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Old 11-22-2014, 05:23 AM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DR76 (View Post)
I can. I think the Enchanted Forest was basically a patriarchal society. I mean . . . Leopold having Regina confined to her bedroom, because he suspected she might be cheating on him?
I disagree. There's no evidence that patriarchy played into the Enchanted Forest. Granny had respect and command in her village. The female fairies were respected and held power. Snow, as well as Abigail, were female and there was no sign that either was thought less of for being princesses instead of princes. No, if patriarchy did play a role in the Enchanted Forest, it did so in a way the show hasn't explored before.

However, the Enchanted Forest was most definitely a extremely hierarchical society. Leopold could lock up Regina because he was a king, not because he was a man. Regina was the queen, but she married into it. Leopold was the source of power, so he was the one the guards obeyed. The more obvious example was Xavier's ability to threaten Cora's life for merely crashing a party. If Rumple hadn't taught her to spin straw into gold, it was made clear that Xavier could just order Cora's execution and have it performed, no law or custom to prevent such abuse of power. And don't get me started on the elements of power that having magic bring to the Enchanted forest. Needless to say, it reinforces the hierarchy and takes it to new levels even our world never saw. Hierarchy, not sexism ruled in the Enchanted Forest, and magic made it worse.

Last edited by aeverett; 11-22-2014 at 06:20 AM
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Old 11-22-2014, 05:37 AM
  #177
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Ratings looked good for this episode.
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Old 11-22-2014, 01:53 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeverett (View Post)
I disagree. There's no evidence that patriarchy played into the Enchanted Forest. Granny had respect and command in her village. The female fairies were respected and held power. Snow, as well as Abigail, were female and there was no sign that either was thought less of for being princesses instead of princes. No, if patriarchy did play a role in the Enchanted Forest, it did so in a way the show hasn't explored before.

However, the Enchanted Forest was most definitely a extremely hierarchical society. Leopold could lock up Regina because he was a king, not because he was a man. Regina was the queen, but she married into it. Leopold was the source of power, so he was the one the guards obeyed. The more obvious example was Xavier's ability to threaten Cora's life for merely crashing a party. If Rumple hadn't taught her to spin straw into gold, it was made clear that Xavier could just order Cora's execution and have it performed, no law or custom to prevent such abuse of power. And don't get me started on the elements of power that having magic bring to the Enchanted forest. Needless to say, it reinforces the hierarchy and takes it to new levels even our world never saw. Hierarchy, not sexism ruled in the Enchanted Forest, and magic made it worse.


I guess we can agree that we diasgree.
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"The term 'Black Magic' was originally a reference to the type of 'magic' (spiritual beliefs) done by people who were black and because of the racism of the time - 'Black=Bad'; we find the current idea of black magic meaning magic that is either bad, evil, or lesser." That is just wrong on so many levels.
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:42 PM
  #179
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well at least we know that the red heart was an error.

It didn't make sense for someone like Hook to have a pure red heart.


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Old 11-22-2014, 04:14 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scififan2009 (View Post)
Ratings looked good for this episode.
Actually they were slipping. 2.4.

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Once Upon a Time‘s two-hour outing averaged 6.6 mil and a 2.4, down 11 percent and a tenth. (For those curious about the half-hours: 2.5 > 2.3 > 2.3 > 2.3.)
Ratings: Bob’s Is Bigger Than Mulaney, Once Ticks Down, Revenge Hits High | TVLine
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