miss.sunshine

That is just what I was about to say. C'mom, I'm pretty sure Rumple will get his redemption, probably soon with his son around (not ti mention he has Belle!). And he is the evilest of all (people seem to forget that he is the big bad guy in the story)! So why can Hook follow the same path too? He deserves it. And Regina could help him with that. I don't want to him to lose his sassy personality, but I think being the way he is is just a defense mechanism. Who knows, he might want to be better for Regina.

Vera-Sabe

It really bugs me when people say that certain couples won't be good for each other for so and so reason (what ever those reasons are). Like any real life couple and/or TV show couple, I don't think that Hook and Regina will lose some of their traits by getting romantically involved.

I mean, generally speaking, the point of being in a relationship with someone is because you like that person's personality, traits, characteristics, and you like them. You're attracted to them for these reasons, not only because you think they're also physically attractive. Also, a couple who just want to get to know one another, spend time with each other, love each other, and just be together won't take each other's characteristics away. They will try to help, heal, and lift each other up. They will also try to be better people and in this way, they will also be a better couple because of this. (I hope I'm making sense and you get what I'm saying, lol.)

The same goes for Hook and Regina. I do not think that they will bring each other down. I do not think that they will lose some of their characteristics, traits, and/or personality. I think that they will both be just as stubborn, strong, snarky, sassy, arrogant, intelligent, cunning, and manipulative as they were when they were still by their lonesome.

By being together, they won't be alone anymore. They will have someone who will understand where they are coming from, and someone who will understand what happened to them in the past. They will understand and respect each other because of that. Then they will be able to slowly help each other to move on, to heal, and to become better individuals and people.

Who's to say that this cannot happen, eh?

Regina wants to love and be loved in return. That's all she's ever wanted. When Regina loves someone, she loves that person with all of her heart, might, mind, and strength. When Hook loves someone, he loves them deeply and unconditionally. I mean, look at what he did and has become because he lost Milah. Hook may be a womanizer, but Milah wasn't just some nice piece of ass or pussy to him. He really and truly loved her.

Who's to say Hook cannot find love or fall in love again? Besides, if he ever does, you can bet your bottom dollar that the next woman he loves will be loved just as deeply and unconditionally as he loved Milah. The same goes and can be said for Regina.

No, I get what you're saying. Thanks for posting the link to the Tumblr post. I went and read the analysis. I have to say that it's a very interesting theory that she has. I never thought of that before, especially the part about Red's involvement.

I think that I'm just confused by all of this to be honest. I want Regina to redeem herself. I love that this was her story arc for this season. I don't want her to go back to being the EQ. So, deep down I want her to pretend to be under Cora's clutches, but in reality she is really trying to bring her mother down. Even though Regina's vulnerable, she's still a strong character and woman.

Then again, like everyone said, she's emotional, lonely, sad, and depressed. Cora knows how to push her buttons, how to drop down her defenses, and how to get her to come back to her. Thus, if she is siding with Cora 100%, it's just sad and heartbreaking. It would be, like I mentioned before, the abused going back to the abuser.

Either way, I still think that Hook and Regina can form some type of bond with each other. Their interactions and dialogue are full of sass and snarky retorts. I love it and I hope that it will continue.

SillyMe31

This. This is where "then love again" comes into Regina's arc (and, potentially, Hook's, since their stories mirror each others so closely...) vs. the lovers they may have taken over the years. It is no accident Daniel's line was so deliberately written into the story, his explicit wish to Regina. I think her story is destined for a deeper, more meaningful romantic relationship than she's had since her teen years; I see no reason why Hook's would be different. Their paths have been drawn so similarly for a reason.

Personally, I'm not oblivious to the fact that most likely this will not become canon. I know the show is pushing for a Captain Swan story... I myself am a Swan Queen shipper, but that hasn't stopped me from embracing the Regina/Hook pairing as a relationship that would be incredibly (maybe even equally) satisfying. The potential for growth for both characters, both together and individually, is certainly there. I think they are two of the most loyal characters when in love, and the possibilities of what falling in love with each other would mean for this show's narrative in light of this is exciting.

Vera-Sabe

^ I really like the points you raised here about Daniel/Regina and what he told her in episode 5. That is very true. I also think that Regina will find someone whom will love her and whom she can love in return; and someone she can have a relationship with that won't turn out to be a disaster and tragic. Even if it's not Hook on the show, I know that it will be someone who will totally understand and support her, fight for her, be there for her, and stand up for her. She needs someone like this later on down the road.

ITA with you on this. I myself am a Captain Swan shipper. However, I am also a multi-shipper. I don't support Swan Queen as a romantic pairing, but I do support them as being friends/best friends. Hook/Regina just really took me by surprise in a very good way. Once I started looking at their back stories and how their lives mirror each other, I became a shipper. Like you said, they have a lot of potential to be something really special. They may not get together on the show, but that doesn't mean that they have no chemistry. It also doesn't mean that we, as supporters, can't continue to ship them.

KOUAT12

Credit: NewMoonInTheSummer ღ Vidding Is My Life - YouTube

Vera-Sabe
: I really hope Regina and Emma become best friends and have joint custody with each other with Henry.

Vera-Sabe

KOUAT12: I love this video. It's beautiful. Thanks for posting it! And ITA with you on the Regina/Emma/Henry dynamic. I really hope that Regina and Emma can resolve their issues slowly over time. That way they can share joint custody of Henry. This is my hope for them. *crosses fingers*

miss.sunshine

Yes yes yes, this is all too confusing. We are torn about many things. We have no idea what is going to happen. So I guess this is exciting. But frustating at the same time, right! Guess we'll have to wait. I think the next episode will clear many things. And yeah, of course, I'm hoping to see Regina form some kinda of bond with Hook. I mean, look what they've been through in their lifes. So, it doens't have to be necessarily a romantic relationship, at least not right away. But it can certainly lead to love.

Thanks for the video!

Vera-Sabe

Yes, you're right about that. It's frustrating to try to figure out what's going to happen with little information that's been presented to us. I really hope that this new episode on Sunday will shed some light on a few things. At the same it could also raise more questions than answers.

ITA with you on that. At the risk of repeating myself, I hope we get more Hook/Regina scenes. I would like to see what's going to happen. Like you said, it doesn't have to be anything romantic - certainly not at this point. It can lead to something more later on down the road, though. But now that they're working together - sort of - I would like to see what their plans are at this point.

bbroccs

Yes I approve of this thread very much. May I be added to the list please?

Vera-Sabe

Hi, bbroccs! Welcome to this thread. I added you.

GrhmLz

Agreed.

I didn't like what Milah did to pre-curse Rumple, or how she treated him, but for Hook to have been touched in this way, so much so, that he couldn't let go, tells me that he's not just the 'self-serving' characters the writers have claimed he is. If so, then the writing is a contradiction. The woman's death should have had barely any affect on him then.

And poor Regina ... she's cast off as 'evil', nothing more or nothing less by most of SB. I get that her reign as EQ did this but at the same time, apparently, wanting to 'change' for the better is not good enough, nor will it ever be.

My problem right now is 'representation.' I'm frustrated with the writing because I get the distinct impression that Hook and Regina are being sacrificed off to some superfical 'big battle' plot device and 'thus' - they have the name 'evil' slapped upon them. Yet, at the same time, the writing appears to be taking favor with Rumple and 'retconning' him into being 'not so bad' just because of Bae {and Belle}, without a true redemption arc. Regina's redemption arc which was introduced at the beginning of the season feels sacrificed for this new direction that's beyond predictable and eye-roll worthy imo. Also, I wish the writers would stick to their premises too. If the true theme of this show is about hope, then shouldn't all the characters have a glimpse of it {yet I don't see where characters like Hook and Regina do at this point}? And if 'Evil is truly made and not born', then let's be done with this 'evil' stigma against the characters in media, and instead acknowlegde that very hurt people did some very bad things that can't be undone. If Rumple is redeemable, why can't Hook and Regina be?! { rhetorical question of course}

I think this thread has come up with some interesting parallels between the two: Both lost their loves in the same fashion, both sought out revenge and 'justice' {because from their perspective, it is justice to punish those that took from them or hurt them}.

miss.sunshine

That's the problem. I don't know if it is the writing or they are doing on purpose. People in SB still see Regina as evil. Just evil and period. In FT land I kinda see why people would say that about her. But right now she is so different. But they are not capable of giving her a chance.
And yes, absolutely, Rumple is passing has a good guy. Ok, maybe not so much, but more than it should. I can't see why. He did horrible things. I mean, duh, he freaking created the dark curse. He practically also 'created' the person who casted the dark curse. He killed people. And ok, maybe he is trying to change just like Regina. But he is getting recognition. That's so not right.

Enough said!

Vera-Sabe

Just as Rumpelstiltskin is redeemable, Regina and Hook are redeemable, too. Many people tend to forget this because of the "evil" things that they did; that's a fact. And people also tend to forget that Rumpel has done far more evil things than Regina and Hook did, which is also a fact.

"Intent is everything." - Regina

"Intent is meaningless." - Rumpel.

I disagree with Rumpel and agree with Regina in this case. Intent is everything. Look at what Rumpel's intentions did by trying to find his son. Rumpel became the devil himself. Plus, he was/is willing to destroy all of the many realms, including the people in it, that existed just to find his son. I am not bashing Rumpel when I say this because this is the truth.

Regina was abused by Cora verbally, emotionally, mentally, and magically; she was probably physically abused, too, even though there is no proof of that on or off-screen. No one can deny, dismiss, or discount this.

Regina wanted to run away and escape from Cora's clutches, but Cora caught up to her every time she tried to do that. Cora drilled into Regina all her life that nothing else matters but power, that true power endures, that love is weakness, and all this mental psycho BS all of her life - over and over and over again. She wanted to marry Daniel for love because she was in love with him and he with her. Just as Cora crushed Daniel's heart in front of Regina's very own eyes, she crushed Regina's hope and desire for happiness in front of Regina's very own eyes.

How much more could this girl (Regina) take (at that time) before she snapped and tumbled over the edge, to fall down into a never-ending pit of darkness, eh?

Regina was already at the edge of that damn cliff because of her mother when she met Rumpel. Even though Cora drilled all that "love is weakness and true power endures" crap into Regina and murdered Daniel in front of her, Rumpel was the one who gave Regina that final push. She was ready to fall and he knew it. Once he gave her that push, boom! She descended into evil, into that never-ending pit of darkness.

Plus, even though Regina wants to redeem herself, how much more pain, suffering, and misery must Regina go through at the hands of her mother?

Cora wanted Regina to rely on her again, to fall back into that never-ending pit of darkness. Cora is like Regina's personal drug and personal punching bag. Like I stated before, it's the classic case of the abused (Regina) going back to the abuser (Cora). Because Regina is sad, lonely, depressed, and vulnerable right now, Cora used that to her advantage. Cora knows how to push Regina's buttons. Cora knows what to say and do to make Regina come back to her - even now.

Regina has no one at this point in time. Absolutely no one in her corner. No one to help her the right way. No one to stand up with and for her. Her mother is of no help. Every time Regina tries to come back for air, Cora pushes her back down into the water or ground - again and again and again.

Despite all of the evil things Regina has done, she doesn't deserve this kind of abuse. She's a woman who only wants to love and be loved in return. And not an unhealthy and controlling love: a love that is true, unconditional, pure, and good.

There is no doubt that Killian/Hook was not a good man before he met Rumpel and before Rumpel killed Milah. He was a pirate. Pirates cheat, steal, and lie. They don't play with unicorns and butterflies, and pick daises in the sunshine. They take what they can and give nothing back. I'm sure Killian has killed his fair share of people during his time as a pirate captain before and after Milah was killed.

However, even pirates have a code by which they live by. We don't know what Killian's life was like before he became a pirate, how his childhood was like, and how his parents treated him. But we do know that he has always been a gentleman, that he's loyal to the people he cares about, that when he loves someone, he loves that person deeply and unconditionally, and that before Milah was killed he wasn't consumed by revenge, darkness, and despair.

Rumpel pushed Killian over the edge. It caused him to go into a never-ending pit of darkness as well. Killian had to watch Rumpel rip Milah's heart out of her chest and crush it into dust. Killian loved that woman, and still does. He never mourned her and never moved on. He became consumed with revenge and the need to exact that revenge.

It's understandable. Why? He had to watch the woman he loved get murdered in front of his eyes and ultimately die in his arms. He couldn't even do anything to stop that from happening because Rumpel tied him to the mast. When he freed himself, he was already too late. And so, he became damaged, broken, and scarred. That event became one of the most traumatic and tragic events in his life.

This won't be a good example or comparison, but I will say it anyway. If an armed gunman were to point a gun and shoot someone we love and care about, i.e. spouse, child, best friend, etc. in front of our eyes, what would we do? If our loved one died in our arms because of that, what would we do, eh? Maybe we wouldn't take our revenge, but wouldn't we be just as broken, damaged, and scarred like Regina and Killian?

So, yes, I disagree with people who say that Regina and Hook are not redeemable. Whatever. When someone they love abuses them, when someone they love gets murdered in front of their eyes and dies in their arms, only then they will have room to talk.

Yeah, I agree with what you said about the writing Heather, particularly for Regina. Some scenes make me cringe and make me want to hit the writers upside the head.

~Cydonia~

A couple more icons

GrhmLz

Lovely icons. Thanks for sharing them.

Very nice post, Vera-Sabe. I think you've hit alot of points right on cue.

This is essentially why I haven't jumped on the 'Hook is beyond redemption' bandwagon because even I can see he's not black and white in character. I wasn't even doing that with Rumple, I just don't like the 'retconned' writing for him, that's my main issue, making it suddenly appear like he never did anything as bad as Regina or Hook. I'm sorry but that's just not true and he is not above them.

I don't think it's a leap to assume he's done very questionable and not so good things as a pirate, as you yourself have pointed out. But if the creators premise is that 'Evil is made, not born' - then we'd be left assuming that at some point in Killian's life, he started out differently. We don't know his entire journey, his whole background. I take it he's more complex then just the 'self-centered' pirate that's been thrown out there.

For the moment, until they get more into that background, or even if they don't, I find him at least entertaining.

100% agreed on your analysis of Regina too. I think that's one thing both Hook and Regina really share in common in the present day is their innate sense of loneliness and how they stand behind this emotional suit of armor. Regina hides with the EQ facade and Hook's approach I feel is to put people on guard with his blatant and overt gestures and innuendos. He tries to be mockingly sarcastic with a touch of humor and I think this is his defense mechanism in dealing with others around him.