Seamstress90

Apparently the writers planned to tell Will's story and why he's in SB in 4b, but there was no room for that. So having him jump into a rebound relationship with Belle was just a back-up plan. Which was just stupid and unnecessary move, IMO. They could have been just friends. Rumple is so insecure that just seeing Belle and Will laughing together would have been enough to convince him that there's something more between them.

confessor_meggy

^ Definetely, just seeing them together would have been a red alarm for him.

On Will, maybe if they give him a bit more space in 5A we find out he actually doesn't have his heart again or something

On Belle, I don't think anyone put her under some spell honestly. I can see why she would look for an easy-going relationship when trying to move on from Rumple, mostly to convince herself he's not her HE since, as far as she knew, he was gone forever. I just think it was a bit too fast. But then again, I don't think it went beyond a couple of kisses and dates.

I think that's a very good comparison. Just like with Ross and Julie, the relationship worked because Belle/Ross convinced themself there was no hope with Rumple/Rachel, and because both of them weren't there. As soon as Rumple/Rachel were in picture again (Drunk!Rachel phonecall and Rumple showing he did love her - I still think one major reason she threw him out of SB was because she believed he didn't love her and thought she was weak and could manipulate her, like the mirror said) the other relationship was thrown off the window. And just as for Ross Julie "Isn't Rachel" Belle "doesn't love Will".

Grace52373

I forgot about Ross and Julie! That apparently was a forgettable relationship as is Belle and Will's! Ross could be a bit of an idiot, not that I am saying Belle was. She just didn't have all the facts and that is on Rumple and on herself for not getting the truth out of him via dagger but that might have made things worse anyway!

Bottom line, the writers poorly planned this, used Will as a plot device, didn't really bother with explaining why they were together just threw it there for more cheap drama! They honestly should do one whole season with the first 11 episode arc having something dramatic and picking up the story in the second half. They may like it but it is killing the show because you can't take a season long story and cram it into 11 episodes without it affecting the story. Not that I wanted to see Will and Belle's relationship. Frankly they were nothing to me. They had no chemistry and no reason to be together and they could have had Belle helping Will in the first part of the season looking for Ana, have them remain friends and her helping him throughout the next season and have Will give her some support and help her see through his own story that true love is worth fighting for. Rumple could easily misinterpret that, they give Belle a story that affects Rumple's story but it is not just a dramatic plot device and everyone would have been happy!

fox24

Yeah I agee Meggy. Belle and Will was a casual relationship nothing to serious

Grace52373

I put this in the dearies thread but I wanted to share it here.

I was at church today and listening to the homily and by coincidence it was about free will and true freedom versus doing what we feel like doing and a bonus, the devil lulling us into a sense of complacency I think was the word and it reminded me of the debate on whether Rumple had free will or not with the curse. We talked about Judas and not declaring his fate. He betrayed Jesus and completed the tragedy by taking his life and the priest said, why didn't God stop him and the answer was that God loves us enough to not interfere with our choices. he wants us to willingly make the right choice without coerision on his part and in that way he is showing us he loves us even if we disappoint him. It made me think of Rumple's curse and when Zelena forced him to make the wrong choice and Belle used the dagger to force him to make the right choice, difference is until the end of 4a, Belle was sincerely sorry for her mistake and forcing her husband to do what she wanted instead of allowing him to make the choice on his own free will. It really made me think of how little free will Rumple had under this curse because if someone wasn't holding his dagger than he had an evil entity inside that would take over and at times influence him into the wrong direction. How strong was he to make right choices while under that curse. We are free to make choices for good or bad but imagine someone who lost that choice and how much they struggled to do good and battle an parasite who was feeding off his goodness.

It also made me think that the reasons he took on the curse, he was tricked but he went after the DO dagger to save his son and the other children and if that gave him some protection. Maybe losing Belle and Bae who were the lights in his life allowed the curse to consume him faster along with being away from his magic.

Lastly, I wondered if the whole darken Emma was a plan b. Rumple knew by the chernabog, who had the most potential for darkness. We know he has faith in her but he knows that being forced back into SB he wanted to find the author to prevent, and it is canon, his curse from being passed on but he had a back up plan if it was. Emma had all the darkness sucked from her therefore, if the curse took over, she may have completely succumbed before they could find a way to stop it. This is supposing he couldn't get to the author. It made me remember that Zoso didn't just trick him, he goaded him. Zoso probably knew his time was close and sought someone to pass the curse on. He could have let Rumple control him and Rumple may very well have let him go after ending the war and freeing the kids. Zoso deliberately goaded him and pushed his buttons in order to force him to kill him. Maybe Zoso knew that he needed to bring forth Rumple's darkness so he would be able to handle the curse. Maybe that is why he was darkening Emma so they could buy time before the curse consumed her completely like it did him and kill her before starting the cycle all over? It is just something I was thinking about because his wanting to make the savior dark had no benefit that I could see? Rumple doesn't do anything without a concrete plan and I remember him saying he never wanted to pass his curse on.

What do you guys think? What do you think about seeing Belle use the dagger to force him to do good whereas Zelena forced him to do bad. I am not bashing Belle here just comparing and contrasting behavior that is problematic and may end up affecting Rumple and Belle's relationship down the road and wondering if even though he forgave her, did he do it out of fear of losing her, guilt, or did he sincerely forgive her?

confessor_meggy

^ Well, I answered you theor in the dearie thread

But on Belle using the dagger, that's the worst action she made this season, not even banishing Rumple. And I'm not even talking of 4x11, when she was droven by anger and disappointed, I'm talking about 4x06. This is of course, totally my view, and simply because free will to me is the most imortant thing. People should be allowed to make their choices, good or bad. You take away their free will, even with good intention, even if you want them to do the right thing, and they are not human anymore, they are robots. You completely alienate who they are and make them what you want them to be, good or bad. In 4x06, I don't think Rumple would have been so forgiving if it wasn't that he was feeling guilty because he had hurt her before this and lied to her, had he not that guilt in him, he might have shown more hurt. Add this to his year to Zelena, you get what his reaction was IMO. He forgave her, because he loves her, because he's feeling guilty about lying to her and because in his twisted mind he still can't believe she loves him and doesn't want to even risk driving her away, no matter what she does to him. He forgave, but he didn't forget. Her using the dagger in 4x06 probably made him thinking his decision to not give her the real dagger was the right one, because she showed him he can't even trust the person he loves the most and who has never deerted him before not to take away his free will. Hence why I think from 4x06 his actions got way worse. She showed him he was justified in doing whatever he could, no matter the consequences for other people, to get freed of the dagger and of his free will being taken away again.

Now...that's a long post, sorry

Grace52373

I agree but I want it addressed on the show. Apologies and forgiveness are a two way street and he isn't the only one who needs to apologize. I still think using the dagger both times and giving it to Hook needs to be acknowledged.

80sBabygirl

About TLK, wasn't it said in the finale that only Merlin could destroy the DO curse? If so, then TLK should not even come up, even if it is Henry to Emma, because that begs the question of why Belle couldn't use it on Rumple.

But Belle did apologize for using the dagger in 4x06. I don't understand why she needs to keep apologizing for it. That's the only thing I really had a problem with her doing, but she felt so bad about it that she didn't even think she deserved to be with him. That's how bad she knew her actions were. I don't see why it has to keep being brought up when it's been addressed and acknowledged. I do have a problem with wondering whether Rumple really did forgive her for it, because he had been lying to her during this time. I'd like to think that he did because she clearly felt horrible about it and was honest with him. I have no problem with her using the dagger to stop him from killing Hook or banishing him, so I don't think she should apologize for that, and Rumple does not blame her for it. Giving the dagger to Hook. Well, he pretended to be Hook, so I don't see why Belle needs to apologize for that.

Seamstress90

I don't think TLK can destroy the curse, I think it only chases the black goo out of it's host. And what if the DO needs to be chased out of Emma before Merlin can destroy it?

I agree, I don't think Belle using the dagger on Rumple needs to be brought up anymore. She was devastated and he forgave her. And I believe he was sincere about that. He wasn't even angry with her.

While I do think it was very stupid of Belle to give the dagger to a man who had every reason to be angry with Rumple, I think it was also equally stupid/weird of Rumple to assume that she would give the dagger to Hook. I blame the writing.

Kelaine

Next chapter up in Silence of Cries Unheard.

Caught

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1096810...-Cries-Unheard

This is a darker chapter. Keith kidnaps and attacks Belle. Belle draws on her memories as Lacey to try and get out of it. I'm not going to try and make my usual attempt at humor in the summary because I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

crazy_diamond

source

confessor_meggy

^Happy times Kisses Is it September yet? Is Rumple awake yet? Did they change the locks on the Pawn shop yet?

But it probably won't

I don't think she needs to apologise again, in any of those occasion. But I think it needs to be addressed that the fault in their marriage wasn't entirely his (and not in one episode that gets self-resolved). And I'd like to see it realised from both of them. As I said, Rumple probably won't, as he sees her above anything and himself as less than a zero, so to him she'll always be a Goddess who can do no real wrong while everything bad ever happening it's his fault. So I'd love for Belle to tackle the argument and say "dude, I know you love me, but I make my mistakes too. And although you were a prick I did my bad things too. We need to work TOGETHER, you are not the only one who needs to work on bettering himself to save our marriage".

PS: I'm glad I don't write the show, I'm horrible at dialogues

Grace52373

Sorry guys, I meant what meggy said that Belle needs to acknowledge that she isn't the only injured party here and he has a right to be angry with her and feel betrayed. Yes she did apologize, but she used it on him again and I don't think she needed to and I am a stickler for not taking people's free will away. I tend to equate the dagger to slavery but not one you can escape from so when people especially Belle use it against him, I get the creeps. I don't expect much but I don't really want to see Poor Belle, she has a horrible husband who doesn't deserve her anymore crap. I want them to be equals and both take responsibility for their actions. I can see Rumple just blaming himself for everything and he has and that isn't right. He is partially responsible and so is she and I want it addressed that both screwed up their relationship!

Another thing I want is for Granny to stop picking on Gold! I bet she undercharged Will the cheater opposite of her overcharging Rumple for pickles. I love pickles but if someone overcharged me on them, I would throw it in their face and never eat there again! I would also like to see Ana come on not just because I love her portrayer but I want to see Ana kick Will's butt like only she can! I wouldn't mind her going after Belle either!

80sBabygirl

I do agree that Belle should have never asked him not to kill Zelena and she should not have ignored the signs she was seeing in the marriage. So I agree with them both agreeing that they made mistakes and working things out. I don't agree that Rumple sees her as someone who can do no wrong. He spent lots of time with her in the Dark Castle and in SB and has seen her make mistakes. I think he sees her more as someone who generally does the right thing and is a "hero," definitely compared to him. He feels like he always makes the wrong choice, but she tends to make the right choice, kind of like how he views people like Emma, for example.

I think one of the points of "Family Business" is that Belle is a human who makes mistakes and has insecurities about her relationship with Rumple. I see her using the dagger the second time on Rumple as the equivalent of someone holding a gun to someone's head to stop them from killing someone else. But I know we will all never agree on her using the dagger on him the second time, so I will just stop there. I just feel like sometimes every excuse in the world is made in the fandom for Rumple's behavior, and it's almost like Belle has to be "brought down" to justify it. She does something people don't like, it's open season on her. So yes, I do think that Rumple's mostly at fault, but Belle shares partial responsibility, and I do hope it's talked about.

confessor_meggy

^ I agree that most of the fandom I encountered attacks Belle's actions more than Rumple's. I guess the fact that he has far mor screentime on his own and his reasons are shown in more depth usually, makes it easy to sympathize with him.

But just to clarify some points:
1) I don't blame her using the dagger the second time. As I said before, my criticism on this are all for her "family business" actions
2) Family business is one of my fav S4 episodes. Not only because it finally has lots of belle, something from her past not connected to Rumple and so much Rumbelle. But because I liked the fact that Belle was finally, clearly, being shown to be flawed, as per before, I found it difficult to find her any distant from a "pure angel". My only issue is that I would have liked to explore this side of her, and this side of her marriage more in depth, I wasn't happy it got resolved in 40 min. and the next episode was as if it didn't happen at all

3) We'll have to disagree on how Rumple sees Belle