Belleislove

You have a one-track mind.
Yes, they absolutely need to talk. It's actually ridiculous that they don't give them more scenes talking together or doing anything really.

Seamstress90

Yes, but to be fair, Belle admitted that she had seen "signs", but pretended they didn't exist because she didn't want to see them. That's a mistake. Problems don't go away by ignoring them, they tend to accumulate until they blow up in your face. I'm not saying what Rumple did was Belle's fault, but she might have been able to stop him earlier. I think they both have some growing to do as human beings. And they definitely need to learn to communicate with each other.

Agreed. Only Rumple can save Rumple in the end. As Elsa said, love is a great support, but it's not enough to save you if you don't love yourself. And that's the problem with Rumple. He may love Belle more than anything (and vice versa), but it's not enough because he doesn't love himself enough to be actually able to change. He himself admitted that he doesn't believe he can do it, and that must change.

"I love you for your flaws" isn't exactly same as "I love you for your flaws, and with or without power". When you're dealing with such a pessimistic person with almost non-existent self-esteem, you may need to be more specific. Don't leave room for doubts.

Me too, and I can't wait!

Kelaine

One thing I've seen up close are the difficulties that can hit a person who is gifted-learning disabled, especially when you're dealing with one of the lesser known disabilities and with school systems that didn't always get it. This can be especially bad when, as a kid, someone really does buy the message that it's their fault--they're just not making enough of an effort.

But, what's most devastating in the long run, I think, is teachers and such assuming of course you can do something. This is the endless parade of assumptions that, if you can do A, of course, you can do B. Reading at twice your grade level? Then, of course, you should be able to spell. Able to recite a list of instructions? Then, of course, you shouldn't need help applying them.

The worst thing, of course, is believing and internalizing that message. You can't do something? You're not trying. Why do you think it's harder for you than for everybody else? Just make an effort. And so on.

This is a lot where Rumple is. His trials--and his efforts--are invalidated in his eyes and everyone else's. Listen to his conversation with Emma when he was setting up the hat trap. He sees the difference between him and Emma--between her ability to walk away from temptations that he has given in to--as proof not that it's difficult for him but as proof that Emma is an inherently better person than him. He sees her ability to resist it the way a dyslexic kid who can't read but whose learning disability has never been recognized has been taught to see the kid who reads--the kid who reads made an effort the dyslexic kid didn't. Rumple can be battered and bruised--and dead--and he's told it's not enough. He's not trying. The effort and the pain don't matter, just the result--and the result is proof he didn't try.

As for the things he does accomplish? They don't count, either. In fact, quite the opposite. They're part of the proof he's not trying. If he could stop Pan, of course, he could have stopped Zelena, etc.

Once this is internalized, it doesn't need a person telling him this. Rumple does it all on his own.

And, that's why it's so hard for Rumple to hear it if Belle expresses her faith in him. After all, how does a person express that? "Rumple, of course, you can do this."
******

Guess I should add, Rumple needs some Archie time. He needs someone who can tell him, yes, it's hard. The fact that it's hard doesn't mean he's weak or that he's not trying. It means it's hard.

The fact that something that's hard for him isn't hard for someone else just means it's hard for him and not someone else.

But, this also means he needs to be brave enough to tell the people who matter to him when it's hard and when he's struggling. He needs to ask for their help when he needs it or ask for their patience when he's struggling. He needs to not pretend there isn't a problem when there really is one.

crazy_diamond

I can't help it with these two

and it is......

Neither can I

Grace52373

Excellent points Kelanie! When I briefly went back to school for a teaching degree in order to work in as a school librarian, I had classes on special needs children and observed their school day. They, like other children have their good days and bad days. They are making an effort but they are behind because of their needs. The teachers I observed are very supportive and encouraging. Sometimes these kids achieve their goals one day and the next day have trouble replicating those achievements but the care and patience these teachers have are the difference between these kids being able to grow and learn and staying stagnant. That is what Rumple needs, care and patience. Everybody forgets that he is cursed. Regina isn't, Hook isn't so it is like Hook and Regina are the normal kids who have a more functioning disability and can overcome it easier but Rumple has a more severe kind of disability and he is going to lag behind and have set backs! A lot of these kids have set backs due to stress and so has Rumple. he was a captive for more than a year and tortured. That is enough to change anybody almost irrevocably and he has a centuries old curse on his back. I don't agree with what Rumple did but I can't help but feel for this man because he is severely traumatized and I wonder if what Belle did made him worse and will he even try to win her back? I really want the heroes and Belle to face up to Rumple's trauma and do something they didn't do last time, support him!

Belleislove

I feel for him too. I agree he was traumatized.

Belle had to have been traumatized by being chained to a wall in a dungeon for a year or more and then spending 28 years in a room. They've both suffered.

My first concern is him making this up to her, however. I agree they both made mistakes. However, hers aren't, imo, even close to the ones he made.

I love him. But he killed someone and used her as an alibi, was willing to let a whole town be destroyed and was going to take her away from her father forever, among other things.

I'm sure at some point that she will say she could have handled it better. But he is the one that needs to make the first gesture here, imo.

Again, love them both and yes, Belle may have made the wrong choice as in it being severe but I don't know what else she could have done at that point. If she had offered to go over the line with him, does anyone think he would have agreed to that? He still wouldn't have had his power. And that's what he wants at this point. So I think Belle was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Kelaine

I know people who went to school back in the days when learning disabilities were far less known. I think the gifted/learning disabled combo is still the hardest in some ways. It seems like it’s very hard for people to see the strength without discounting the weakness or the weakness without discounting the strength.

I see some of that in our discussion here. I’m more focused on the trauma Rumple had been through and am looking for solutions in terms of what can help him deal with these things? I’m also looking at what could have been done ahead of time in terms of helping him to head this off.

I see other people looking at this in terms of the damage Rumple did to his relationship with Belle, how far he went and what he was willing to do. In those terms what was an appropriate response? What should Belle have done, how should she move on, and how should she act if (from her POV, it’s an if) Rumple returns?

These are two, very different questions even if they hinge on a lot of the same things. It points out what I suppose is the central problem for Rumbelle right now: their interests have diverged. What Rumple needs to heal is very different than what Belle needs to heal—and I think they both need to heal individually before they can heal their relationship. In the past, that relationship was something they were able to draw on to strengthen each other. Right now, they need to get to where they can put strength back into it. That doesn’t mean they can’t help each other but, for a while, it’s got to be in different terms than in the past.

Hope I'm making sense.

Belleislove

You do make sense!! And raise a good point.

It's just sad. Because I think they need each other in order to heal. She needs to know he loves her and he needs to know she loves him.

The thing is, Rumple should be working toward redeeming himself and getting his marriage together and making this up to Belle and I don't see that he'll be doing that any time soon, imo. And Belle should be seeing that there is something else going on with him. One of the hallmarks of their relationship is that she never gives up on him and sees the good beneath the mask and that he wants to be her hero and be loved by her and love her in return. And we don't have that right now so they just seem like different people.

crazy_diamond

source

Belleislove

I got my Once refrigerator magnets the other day and the girl checking me out said "I love Belle and Rumplestiltskin!"

crazy_diamond

great taste

Wonder if we'll see them together tonight

Belleislove

Any time I talk to anyone about Once they say they live Belle and Rumple.

Skin Deep won the best episode thing that was being done on Twitter.

It's sad so many have stopped posting here. I understand because I take breaks as well, but I really think this is just part of their story and not the end.

crazy_diamond

it is concerning the posters, hopefully they will come back

and great that on the eve of 4b. 'Skin Deep' won best episode

Jinzle

The problem with Rumple is he has a cracked foundation. During his formative years, due to his father's behavior towards him and his eventual abandonment. Because Rumple was so young, he didn't get to build a solid foundation for himself. As he aged and went though the rejection and abuse from everyone around him. that further weakened his foundation. Think of his foundation as a cracked cup. Belle can pour unending love into Rumple but it all drains out. The cup can never be full. Rumple will always doubt and fear. Because of that he will always act out. Until he can recognize and want help, this will be a continued problem for him. Belle needs to be realistic and not idealistic about her relationship with Rumple. His problems will not be fixed over night and she cannot love him into being the person she wants him to be. She needs top stop being co-dependent and an enabler for Rumple (and I think she has taken a great first step). Once they acknowledge their problems, then they can work together as a couple and see each other with realistic expectations.

That being said, I am anxious about tonight. I want to see it,but kinda scared too.

Seamstress90

Very true, Jinzle. And I have a feeling the next half of the season is going to be significant for them and their relationship.

That's awesome!

Here's a great discussion about the episode.

The Once Upon A Fan Countdown Roundtable