Once Upon A Time - {Dearies} Rumplestiltskin/Mr. Gold #73: "I'm afraid." - Page 5

Grace52373 · 01-04-2015, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonwen (View Post)

I didn't really see it as ooc for Henry. He cares about family, and would want to save his grandfather, even from himself.

Henry has been mad at both Emma and Regina before for not doing what he felt was right. SO I could buy it, especially after you put it in context with the deleted scenes and Henry and Rumple bonding.

That is why I put the warning in and yes I felt like a lot of people got away with stuff this half of the season and Rumple was the only one punished. I like equality among the characters. I don't like things swept under the rug and Regina's treatment of Sidney was. Rumple was outed for everything and I do believe the fairies and judgey mc prentice will be released from the hat. It bother me that Rumple is punished for his screw ups and not the others but what bothers me most is that Belle believes he doesn't love her and in her anger threw away her belief in herself and her husband and banished him without having all the facts. he has proven to her how many times that he truly loves her. A stupid gauntlet shouldn't derail that and she also deserved an explanation and she forced him to be quiet and threw him out of town knowing he can never return. it was way too harsh for me and I felt that Henry voiced all my frustrations. It ended happily though with Rumbelle and even captain swan working things out and Regina as well as Emma realizing that their true love is Henry. This story was like a catharsis for me and I wanted to share it with other Rumple fans who felt the same that is why I shared it on the couple board and here and not on the Belle thread, and Immortal beloved thread.

Seamstress90 · 01-04-2015, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T'Lynn (View Post)

I hope 4B will get into the DO curse... or at least hint about it. Maybe they want to fully explore that in Season 5?

I've been wanting to do a meta on Rumple and power vs. love for a while now so I think I might do it during this hiatus. I'm doing a rewatch so as I come across stuff I didnt notice before I'm going to be asking for thoughts here, you guys always have great insight.

That sounds like a meta I'd love to read.

And yeah, I'd like to learn more about the DO curse.

Here's a good and plausible theory on the DO curse as something that amplifies negative emotions and suffering (as we've speculated before), and how it affects Rumple:

Quote:

I kind of have to wonder about the definition of darkness that is used in the show. Is darkness synonym with what we would call “evil”? When we talk about the dark one does that mean the “evil one?”

The truth is, I don’t think that dark is evil and I don’t think the dark one’s curse is necessarily the curse of being “the ultimate evil one.” For me Darkness speaks more of suffering: anger, sadness, fear, hate (self and others), anxiety, desperation, hopelessness and all other nasty emotions we can think of. Those emotions might turn someone “evil” but it is not necessarily so.

I think the dark one’s curse is a curse that makes the afflicted person be really burdened by the suffering inflicted on him by all those really nasty emotions. Lets face it, non of us enjoy feeling those emotions. It is like walking around with all your nerve ends exposed to pain all the time. Now this kind of feeling can lead to either being what we would call a good person, a hero (who wants to save others from suffering) or to one becoming nihilistic (because you don’t see any reason to do good if everywhere you turn is suffering and pain) and what we call evil person or villain.

Rumple seems to be in different places in different times of his life. I think he had sadness and pain from his very early life (abusive father, absent mother…). He was still a good person in my opinion during the time with the seer. He made a choice to mutilate and hurt himself, but really it wasn’t because he was afraid - but because he didn’t want to inflict pain on his future son.

He knew what it was to grow up without a father. I would argue that it was empathy and love that motivated him in that moment. Sure, that wasn’t the best course of action, but it was a very human response to his situation. So I would argue he was a good person at the time but he did have darkness in the sense of having painful emotions within him.

The situation with his wife was bad but he was a decent good person. Again, he had pain and in that sense darkness, but it isn’t the same thing as evil. He defiantly was not evil at the time. When he met Zoso he was also a good person. Giving him money, hosting him in his home… He probably felt empathy towards the old man. Hardly a bad person in my opinion.

So I think Rumple was an empathetic loving person, Empathy is however a double edged sword. It is based on feeling the suffering of others (which in itself can be a painful feeling) , and is probably based on having experienced suffering personally.

After Rumple became the dark one I believe he started to feel suffering much more intensely. Again, I tend to think of this curse of “amplifying suffering and negative emotions curse” rather than the “become evil curse.” So all of a sudden a human which suffered A LOT gets the burden (curse) to feel all suffering and negative emotions in himself more intensely. He is more angry, more desperate, more sad, more hopeless… He is also relatively empathetic and so might be feeling raw suffering of others much more strongly.

Anyone who ever sat on a cushion and meditated for more than 5 minuets can attest that this “brushing against raw suffering and sadness of oneself” sucks. And after spending a few days on a meditation retreat, and you step out and see a beggar, it could really and profoundly feel painful. So take Rumple with his history of suffering and pain and amplify it a hundred times and make it constant with no escape (can’t stop that meditation…:-( ) and you get someone who is constantly emotionally tormented.

I think he vacillates between being able to feel and be with the suffering he feels inside, to running away from it. That is why he is cold and calculated and business like at times, and very open and raw and vulnerable at others. I think he found a natural dynamic equilibrium over time and was able to “ride” the up and downs of this emotional instability so to speak.

However, losing his son and being controlled by Zelena was just too much suffering to bear. Now it is a lot for everyone, but for someone who is burdened with a curse that makes him feel all negative emotions more intensely? Yea that would probably be to much for any human being. And so, he became nihilistic. Too much suffering coupled with empathy tends to do that to people. We see Rumple having experienced SO MUCH suffering that he doesn’t believe there is and escape - for him or for anyone. So why bother?

So here is what I will argue about Rumple’s Darkness: He had darkness in the sense of pain since very early on. He also had empathy (which is actually amazing considering his early childhood losses). The dark curse amplified his feelings of pain and suffering and coupled with his empathy and ability to feel the suffering of others it was a lot to bear. He found a way to handle it, but resent events sent him towards a nihilistic view of life, and this is what we see now.

Now I am not justifying his actions. They are what we would call pretty awful. However I think we can at least understand where it comes from… even if not justify it.

x

Grace52373 · 01-04-2015, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamstress90 (View Post)

That sounds like a meta I'd love to read.

And yeah, I'd like to learn more about the DO curse.

Here's a good and plausible theory on the DO curse as something that amplifies negative emotions and suffering (as we've speculated before), and how it affects Rumple:

x

That was an excellent meta by a fan who really seems to understand Rumple. He is a difficult man to love but he is that way because of his past and a curse that is a great burden to him but one he cannot live without because of his past and fear of being helpless again. People only see the mask but never the pain behind it until Belle and Bae of course.

This is not based on spoilers or anything but just a feeling I have. I think the writers want to explore good vs. evil and what makes a person a hero vs. a villain. I think we will see that the Queens of darkness like Rumple and the Snow Queen have sympathetic backgrounds. The trio might also think that they were saddled with the villain role when they were greatly wronged in their past and they feel they don't deserve this or were tricked into it like Rumple was by Zoso. Whether or not that is true, they may feel like this and that is their motivation, similar to Regina's for wanting to seek out the author and sorcerer and demand better endings to their stories. We may see heroes and villains acting opposite to their roles as we explore what makes a person good and evil and maybe even do away with those labels. Everything that meta said about Rumple is true. He was a remarkable, decent man who made wrong choices involving love and fear of losing it. I think that is what makes him stand out. It also explains why the audience sympathizes with him because his background makes us ask ourselves those difficult what if questions and how would we react questions!

I have to admit that after the finale, I was all Rumple go get those bad ass witches and show those hypocrites who are the real villains! Either way, I hope we get a good story and loving reunion for Rumbelle out of it!

fox24 · 01-04-2015, 04:56 PM

I think from our tragedy talk all villains have a tragic flaw it doesn't mean there going to have a tragic ending but it's what made them make bad choices. Rumple is his fear of becoming the "village coward" He needs to learn to let go of that fear

Grace52373 · 01-04-2015, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fox24 (View Post)

I think from our tragedy talk all villains have a tragic flaw it doesn't mean there going to have a tragic ending but it's what made them make bad choices. Rumple is his fear of becoming the "village coward" He needs to learn to let go of that fear

It is hard to let go of your fears especially when you try to do the right thing and it constantly blows up in your face.

T'Lynn · 01-04-2015, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamstress90 (View Post)

That sounds like a meta I'd love to read.

And yeah, I'd like to learn more about the DO curse.

I will definitely post it here prior to the 4B premier. It's going to be my project to get me through the hiatus

ChakotaysLover · 01-04-2015, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonwen (View Post)

I wouldn't be surprised. His father did disappear along with Rumple and the dagger.

I think A/E are just going with the addiction

But Rumple being possessed by his father would be cool. Eps with the world domination stuff that everyone mentioned.

And he did say he had too many voices in his head.

**crazy_diamond** · 01-05-2015, 04:44 AM

Wonderful meta there and here's another I found on tumblr...

Quote:

Well I think it’s important with Rumple to know that he never does bad things just to do them. He had no desire to hurt Robin or Roland or anyone else in town. He didn’t even have a desire to hurt Hook at that point. There was nothing he was working toward, no goal that could justify his actions. Zelena was just using his power to hurt people. Rumple can do and has done terrible things, but they’re never without purpose. To him, the ends always justify the means. He was willing to tear apart the world to get to Bae. That was his goal. Now his goal is to never be controlled by the dagger again. He gets terribly one sighted and is able to do bad things to get there. Rumple is complex. It’s what makes him a popular character. It’s what makes people invested in his story. He’s not black and white, he’s shades of gray.

And when he does get his goal, he does feel remorse for the things he did to get there. Hence his statement to Snow in season 2 that you tell yourself you did the right thing often enough that eventually maybe you’ll believe it. But he doesn’t believe it. Hence his statement to Henry about carrying around your regrets like a cloak. But magic is his crutch, it’s the thing he can’t live without, and it always pulls him back. At his core, he doesn’t want to be a villain, but he’s stuck in a cycle he can’t get out of.

source

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace52373 (View Post)

It is hard to let go of your fears especially when you try to do the right thing and it constantly blows up in your face.

Indeed it does...

source

Rhonwen · 01-05-2015, 10:31 AM

great meta..

I do feel for Rumple.

All he's ever tried to do was protect his family. Every act he's done was for his son. Just as Snowing recasting the curse in 3b to go back to SB to save thier child from Zelena. It brought the whole of FTL with them.

Even before he was cursed he was a man the was constantly bullied and abused by everyone. Even Milah, who really was the boss of the family. He never stood up to her, when she went to the tavern and ignored her child, or constantly berated him and wished him dead, he tried to save her from the pirates, but was threatened by Hook.

Love is his motivator, Fear is what keeps his walls up. It's what keeps him isolated from the rest of the world. It's what keeps him making the horrible choices. Because of others he believes he is nothing, and unworthy. Unlovable. Evil is made,, and Rumpel was made by others, and his curse.

It was undestandable why Rumple sought revenge on Zelena. Wrong but it made sense. Esp when A/E described all he went through.

Rumple is cursed , we saw how the curse darkened a good man and corrupted him. But does the curse control him so he really can't see good/bad anymore?
A person can control him if they have the dagger, but how much of the curse is responsible for what's he's done? How much of the curse controls him? that makes a difference in what he's done.

Robert, who knows his character throughly, said that when Rumple was first cursed he had no control of the darkness. He couldn't stop himself. That's why we see him doing his worst acts when he was first cursed. After he made more deals and didn't really do anything near what he did when first cursed.

So if we look at that, and what he's done now. It's like after he was resurrected he became the DO all over again.

Is he losing control?

Will we see what he went through frm the moment he died to now?

Did Hook blackmailing him send him over the edge? he didn't even start with his plan until the blackmail. So could he have been struggling?

Did Rumple's NVL speech to the ShadowBelle become a self fulling prophecy? he told her that eventually she'd leave , that eventually she'd only see him as a monster. that everyone leaves him.

The man needs to find hope, and stop with the self loathing.

He already hates himself more than anyone else ever could. That is why I'm not looking forward to the town turning on him.
Esp Belle.
I get why, but I am hoping that he's family and they try and help him.

I'm also wondering if this will all come up? If all of RUmple's pain will be part of the story. I want them, esp Belle to see what the original man had to endure.

I want what his sacrifice and the fact that this good act to save his family, and as a result the town and then was taken away acknowledged.

Rumple always says "Dead is Dead' so why didn't Belle and Bae adhere to that? Rumple knows that no one should ever be resurrected. Esp from a place called the Vault of the DO.
He didn't try and change the timeline to keep Bae from his heroism and sacrifice, he is not trying to resurrect him.
So he could very well be feeling like his being denied doing the right thing resulted in the death of his son.

I would really like that and all he went through with Zelena addressed by the characters. I also wonder why no one tried to save him. they knew where he was, even in the EF . Looked to him for advice but left him there to rot.

I knwo Zelena had the dagger, but anyone else they would have tried to save.

I hope Henry will remember what Rumple said about regret and decide to help him as he helped his mother. He needs someone to believe in him.

Grace52373 · 01-05-2015, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonwen (View Post)

great meta..

I do feel for Rumple.

All he's ever tried to do was protect his family. Every act he's done was for his son. Just as Snowing recasting the curse in 3b to go back to SB to save thier child from Zelena. It brought the whole of FTL with them.

Even before he was cursed he was a man the was constantly bullied and abused by everyone. Even Milah, who really was the boss of the family. He never stood up to her, when she went to the tavern and ignored her child, or constantly berated him and wished him dead, he tried to save her from the pirates, but was threatened by Hook.

Love is his motivator, Fear is what keeps his walls up. It's what keeps him isolated from the rest of the world. It's what keeps him making the horrible choices. Because of others he believes he is nothing, and unworthy. Unlovable. Evil is made,, and Rumpel was made by others, and his curse.

It was undestandable why Rumple sought revenge on Zelena. Wrong but it made sense. Esp when A/E described all he went through.

Rumple is cursed , we saw how the curse darkened a good man and corrupted him. But does the curse control him so he really can't see good/bad anymore?
A person can control him if they have the dagger, but how much of the curse is responsible for what's he's done? How much of the curse controls him? that makes a difference in what he's done.

Robert, who knows his character throughly, said that when Rumple was first cursed he had no control of the darkness. He couldn't stop himself. That's why we see him doing his worst acts when he was first cursed. After he made more deals and didn't really do anything near what he did when first cursed.

So if we look at that, and what he's done now. It's like after he was resurrected he became the DO all over again.

Is he losing control?

Will we see what he went through frm the moment he died to now?

Did Hook blackmailing him send him over the edge? he didn't even start with his plan until the blackmail. So could he have been struggling?

Did Rumple's NVL speech to the ShadowBelle become a self fulling prophecy? he told her that eventually she'd leave , that eventually she'd only see him as a monster. that everyone leaves him.

The man needs to find hope, and stop with the self loathing.

He already hates himself more than anyone else ever could. That is why I'm not looking forward to the town turning on him.
Esp Belle.
I get why, but I am hoping that he's family and they try and help him.

I'm also wondering if this will all come up? If all of RUmple's pain will be part of the story. I want them, esp Belle to see what the original man had to endure.

I want what his sacrifice and the fact that this good act to save his family, and as a result the town and then was taken away acknowledged.

Rumple always says "Dead is Dead' so why didn't Belle and Bae adhere to that? Rumple knows that no one should ever be resurrected. Esp from a place called the Vault of the DO.
He didn't try and change the timeline to keep Bae from his heroism and sacrifice, he is not trying to resurrect him.
So he could very well be feeling like his being denied doing the right thing resulted in the death of his son.

I would really like that and all he went through with Zelena addressed by the characters. I also wonder why no one tried to save him. they knew where he was, even in the EF . Looked to him for advice but left him there to rot.

I knwo Zelena had the dagger, but anyone else they would have tried to save.

I hope Henry will remember what Rumple said about regret and decide to help him as he helped his mother. He needs someone to believe in him.

I hope someone is in his corner and Belle remembers what he went through and that he does love her.

You made a lot of good points Rho about Rumple. Someone on tumblr made a post meta about Belle that had me thinking. She talks about Belle's ooc behavior this season and is one of the first to point it out. A lot of people are talking about how great it is that Belle stood up for herself and I am proud that she did as well but they also mentioned her using the dagger against him when and he had good reasons not to take her to the Snow Queen. Belle didn't want the responsibility of the dagger but I guess Rumple thought it would offer her a protection and him as well since she didn't have the real one but Belle didn't know that and used it against him for her own wishes and to relieve her guilt. Think about it, Belle shows compassion and heroism to those who hurt her but her first instinct with Rumple is to use his greatest weakness against him when she herself is believes that no one controls her fate but her and she kept secrets even after leaving Rumple because he refused to open up to her. Did they completely destroy the woman that Belle was built up to be, the woman who believed when you found something worth fighting for you fought for it, the woman who saw the flawed man behind the beastly mask all for the sake of plot? I know she was angry and disillusioned over the gauntlet and Rumple's actions and that could have influenced her decision but it seems like an out of character reaction from her. I know she is rash and that's a flaw but this is also the woman who lost Rumple before, is obviously distraught over banishing him but did it anyway even though she tolerates and often helps Hook and Regina. Is it her love that makes the difference in her handling of Rumple, or is it all about plot and should Rumple want to still be with her even after he starts again on a redemptive path? Should he want to be with someone who left him when he was at his lowest once again?

I am not trying to cause trouble or become negative but the actions this season have been soo ooc of both Rumple and Belle that it is noticeable. I will try to locate the Belle meta but Tumblr is hopping today!

**crazy_diamond** · 01-05-2015, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonwen (View Post)

The man needs to find hope, and stop with the self loathing.

He does, but at the moment all his hope is lost...

Seamstress90 · 01-05-2015, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonwen (View Post)

It was undestandable why Rumple sought revenge on Zelena. Wrong but it made sense. Esp when A/E described all he went through.

Yeah, I'm totally not blaming him for that..

Quote:

Rumple is cursed , we saw how the curse darkened a good man and corrupted him. But does the curse control him so he really can't see good/bad anymore?
A person can control him if they have the dagger, but how much of the curse is responsible for what's he's done? How much of the curse controls him? that makes a difference in what he's done.

Robert, who knows his character throughly, said that when Rumple was first cursed he had no control of the darkness. He couldn't stop himself. That's why we see him doing his worst acts when he was first cursed. After he made more deals and didn't really do anything near what he did when first cursed.

So if we look at that, and what he's done now. It's like after he was resurrected he became the DO all over again.

Is he losing control?

Did you read the meta I posted yesterday? The one on the DO curse as a curse that amplifies negative emotions and suffering, and how it affects Rumple? You can find it when you scroll down this page. I think that's very plausible theory, and the writer makes some good points..

Quote:

Did Hook blackmailing him send him over the edge? he didn't even start with his plan until the blackmail. So could he have been struggling?

The blackmail was definitely an abuse of Rumple's "fear" button..

Quote:

Did Rumple's NVL speech to the ShadowBelle become a self fulling prophecy? he told her that eventually she'd leave , that eventually she'd only see him as a monster. that everyone leaves him.

It's indeed heartbreaking how Rumple's worst fears seem to come true one by one..

Quote:

The man needs to find hope, and stop with the self loathing.

He already hates himself more than anyone else ever could. That is why I'm not looking forward to the town turning on him.
Esp Belle.
I get why, but I am hoping that he's family and they try and help him.

Yeah, I'm really not looking forward to that either..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grace52373

Is it her love that makes the difference in her handling of Rumple,

It's exactly that. Belle does truly love Rumple, and that's why his deception hurt her so badly. (Remember how hurt Emma was by Neal's betrayal? Again, that's because she truly loved him.). Being betrayed/hurt by someone is never fun, but it probably feels like 100 x worse when that "someone" is someone you love with all your heart..

Quote:

Originally Posted by T'Lynn

I will definitely post it here prior to the 4B premier. It's going to be my project to get me through the hiatus

I'm looking forward to that!

Grace52373 · 01-05-2015, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamstress90 (View Post)

Yeah, I'm totally not blaming him for that..

Did you read the meta I posted yesterday? The one on the DO curse as a curse that amplifies negative emotions and suffering, and how it affects Rumple? You can find it when you scroll down this page. I think that's very plausible theory, and the writer makes some good points..

The blackmail was definitely an abuse of Rumple's "fear" button..

It's indeed heartbreaking how Rumple's worst fears seem to come true one by one..

Yeah, I'm really not looking forward to that either..

It's exactly that. Belle does truly love Rumple, and that's why his deception hurt her so badly. (Remember how hurt Emma was by Neal's betrayal? Again, that's because she truly loved him.). Being betrayed/hurt by someone is never fun, but it probably feels like 100 x worse when that "someone" is someone you love with all your heart..

I'm looking forward to that!

I tried to find the meta about Belle I was going to post but after hours of searching and coughing due to the bronchitis that has invaded my lungs, I can't search anymore! Too much hate against, Rumple, Belle, and Rumbelle! After hours of looking, I just wanted to curl up with my pillow and read floofy Rumbelle stories! I made a post on my tumblr asking for a link and if I get it, I will post it here. It wasn't anti-Belle but critical of the character's ooc actions this season. I thought it was thought provoking and I'll share once I get the link. I thought it would be a counterbalance to the Rumple ooc metas out there!

Rhonwen · 01-05-2015, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Belle does truly love Rumple, and that's why his deception hurt her so badly. (Remember how hurt Emma was by Neal's betrayal? Again, that's because she truly loved him.). Being betrayed/hurt by someone is never fun, but it probably feels like 100 x worse when that "someone" is someone you love with all your heart..

True Love can be painful. I really hope that Rumple doesn't go any darker. I need him to fight for Belle, and show her that he is that better man, he just lost his way.

Seamstress90 I don't remember the meta, can you post it?

Robert at the airport yesterday I think..

x

there was one the day before of him at the Glasgow airport

Seamstress90 · 01-05-2015, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhonwen (View Post)

Seamstress90 I don't remember the meta, can you post it?

There you go: The Emptiness of Schizotypy


Fan Forum > Archived Television Shows > Once Upon A Time > {Dearies} Rumplestiltskin/Mr. Gold #73: "I'm afraid."