fox24

Well rumple was at least able to keep his income and home and didn't get targeted unlike Jude Law in Cold Mountain.

I don't consider Rumple actions with Hook and the sword fight cowardly but I don't consider who your talking about a coward. he's not he's had his reasons.


Gold and Hook don't know each other just their perception of each other. Hook only knew Rumple from Milahs narration and she wasent the best narrator.
Gold has his own opinion of Hook that I think is wrong but I don't want to debate

Seamstress90

Agreed. I think Rumple's been more cowardly after he became the DO. Before that, he was just trying to be a parent. Yes, he was timid and insecure, but that's not same as being a coward, IMO.

That sounds good.

Kelaine

Agreed. I don't think of Rumple as a coward (except in relationship stuff). I just find it ironic that the person who seems to call him a coward most often--and whose main basis for doing it is being told by Rumple's ex about the self-inflicted wound (the "duel" Jones challenged Rumple to fails all the rules of dueling, so I won't deal with it here)--was the one who met the legal definition several times over.

confessor_meggy

Well I agree i don't think Rumple and Hook can ever be best buddies (too much history/resentment and clearly none of them is too happy to work with the other when they have too I hope they'll become civil at somepoint though. Revenge doesn't help woth anything and they do fight on the same side when it's not directly related to eachother.

And poor Jude

fox24

i don't want to make this Stilkskin verses jones plus Ftl is such a made up society I don't think these laws apply. Plus I think Hook Is very brave and not a coward

Hook has called him a coward because he doesn't like the way rumple "hides he hind his magic" plus I would also be snarky if Gold was going to kill me and expected me to be on my knees

crazy_diamond

Rumple was never a coward in our eyes....how people can see it well...

confessor_meggy

Grace52373

Okay let's not make this Hook vs Rumple so let's drop it please!

Seamstress90

Careful now, Grace..

confessor_meggy

No one was, no worries, on either sides. It was a friendly short conversatin and no one actually attacked the other, so let's keep it/leave it that way

Kelaine

To change the subject, I was reading something that was discussing different views of good and evil. The argument was that, if you view humans as having a natural tendency to do bad, you believe they need to be taught to do good. If they do bad, it's either because they haven't been taught or are choosing to disregard the lesson.

But, if you view them as inherently good and see them doing bad, you will assume outside forces are causing their behavior. You may even assume the bad behavior is justified because of the provocation. It made it sound like believing people were naturally good would incline you to be an enabler.

I'm still mulling over what I think of that argument. I think a natural tendency towards goodness must be like a natural talent for math. You're still going to have to be taught algebra, but I don't know where that lands on this scale. . . .

But, the question is how do we view Rumple?

Before the curse, Rumple seemed to be a mostly good person. He was at his strongest early in his marriage to Milah. He had confidence. Though his reputation suffered because of his father, he didn't let this impact him too much except to be happy when he thought he had a chance to change his reputation for the better. The irony is that, in the end, his determination not to be like his father played a large part in confirming hi village's view of him as a coward. He maimed himself because he was determined not to abandon his son the way his father abandoned him.

I would argue that, in the early days of the curse, he had less self-control than what we saw later. In the episode where he lost Bae, he seemed literally unable to understand what it was he was doing that was upsetting his son.

Later, he seemed to have relearned some kind of self-control. His behavior could be a bit irrational, but people aren't afraid to deal with him.

In SB, he seemed much less influenced by the curse until season 4, when he was dealing with trauma, loss, PTSD, and the knowledge both that he was dying and that his death would lead to the deaths of a lot of other people. His ability to manage the curse nose-dived.

But, it's still hard to say where Rumple (and his conscience) left off and where the curse took over.

Also, I think the show and I may have different views of the overall nature of good and evil. This past season in particular has taken a passive attitude towards it. Evil may be made, but this season seems to suggest it's made without necessarily having input from the person who will become good or evil. For pity's sake, Snow became completely evil in the finale without having made any choices and without ever questioning what she did as an evil queen.

My definition of good and evil is based more on the choices a character makes and why he or she makes them. I think that's why I get frustrated at some of the "reforms" some of the characters have been through. Maybe it's that inherently good thing. If I view Regina's evil queen-ness as coming from outside forces, then it's more important to remove those outside forces and repair the damage they did to her than concentrate on getting Regina to try and make amends for what she's done.

Put another way, I view good and evil as choices we make. If we made an evil choice in the past, the proof we've changed is that, faced with the same choice over again, we would choose differently. Part of changing, then, is wanting to change what we've done. So, for example, if you took something that wasn't yours, you would try to return it. On the other hand, if outward pressures made you steal it, becoming good can be defined as finding ways to avoid or overcome those pressures in the future.

OK, that's my moral musing for the day.

crazy_diamond

I view Rumple as a man who has had an emotional and a half journey, fate has nearly worked against him all his life...and still he battles it, but now losing all confidence in the person he is, the person he thinks no one can love, you are loved Rumple...

Regarding that gif, that was a great scene in the hospital

Grace52373

Sorry, I have seen it happen before and I didn't want it to happen here!

Kelanie, good thoughts on morals and good and evil!

As you know, I was raised a Catholic and am a practicing Catholic. We had a sermon or homily last Sunday that discussed this very thing. In the church's view and mine as well is that we are born innocent. We have our first parents original sin attached to us but it is a passive not an active thing that we are not held accountable for and it is washed away at baptism and we are given a blank slate kind of like Rumple seems to have. The belief is that after that clean slate, we are innocent as we are growing until we have learned from our parents and in school the difference between right and wrong. In the beginning we are a blank slate capable of both good and evil. We do not make our first confession till we are 7-8 years old because by than we have the concept of good versus evil and are able to take responsibility for our sins. In other words, the belief is that mankind is capable of both goodness and darkness and the greatest gift God has given us is free will.

To be continued when I get to work!

God does not want us to do good by force. he wants us to choose it freely that way it means more but the downside is others are free to choose bad. There is an argument of nature vs nurture but I happen to think it is a little of both. There are some morally gray aspects were people are forced to make bad choices to save loved ones or protect loved ones. There are some moral absolutes but there are others which would be defined as morally gray. God in my mind is the only one qualified to judge us because he knows us and our hearts but we also need a legal guideline to follow so society doesn't become chaotic. Jesus made the distinction between man's law and God's law and did not encourage us to break man's law. We have laws for a reason and Jesus wants us to respect that as long as the law does not require us to do evil like in the movie, the Purge or when Nazis or communists were in power and people were forced or even encouraged to turn on each other. God's greatest gift is free will and that is why I had a big problem with Belle using the dagger on Rumple in Family business because she took away his free will and even if it was to do good, it is no better than what Zelena did to him and I was glad she apologized to him but than she did it again but I am not rehashing that argument.

Also if you believe in God you than should believe in the devil or Lucifer. Lucifer was one of God's angels and out of jealousy he and a group of angels tried to take over and were punished for it. Now they try to bring mankind down with them. In their minds, every soul they capture and corrupt is a win for them and a big FU to God. Now I am a logical person who tries to keep an open mind. I tend to try to find a logical explanation before I go with a supernatural one. Now I am going to suspend that to talk about some concepts that are controversial. It doesn't mean that I believe in possession or house hauntings, I am just going to discuss them as if they are true.

Demons are drawn to vulnerable people which brings to mind Zoso's line, 'I can see a desperate person!" They will attack those who show the most vulnerability or potential for evil. They are drawn to negativity like a moth to a flame and they feed off it, in other words, feed the madness and it feeds on you. I believe the DO has demonic qualities. It feeds off the negativity that Rumple feels because of his past abuse and it isolates and torments him in order to gain more control. Rumple was able to hold back the demon with love but when he was again captive and abused it opened up his vulnerability and made him less resistant to the demon taking over. The DO I believe had it's hold over Rumple this entire season with the aim to destroy Rumple and choose another host one who maybe won't be able to fight it as well as Rumple did and that is more than likely why it went after Regina or it did that because it was really after Emma who had an over abundance of light in her due to her parent's interference. The DO thought it would have a feast with Emma and destroy every last bit of light in her.

There are many way to attract a demon. Evil can't hurt you unless it is invited so using a Ouija board, calling or summoning a demon, or moving into a home that has already been infested by a demon. Rumple unknowingly did this by trying to summon and control the DO and than was tricked into inviting this evil into him. Because the DO is evil it recognizes people who are desperate to make deals with the devil and this is how Rumple controlled it for so long along with his deep love for Bae and Belle that the DO couldn't touch. It tried to drive both away and succeeded a few times but they always came back and that must have made the entity in Rumple hate them! I see Rumple as being possessed. Victims of possession often do battle for their soul but unless they get help, eventually the demon destroys them. That is what happened to Rumple and what will happen to Emma if they are unable to find a way to trap or destroy it.

Human beings are for the most part products of our environment and our choices. The nurture part can be overcome with help and we can make better choices but some of us need the tools to do it. People who have been abused and neglected all their life are going to need help and support to turn their lives around. They need patience and therapy to realize they are worthy of love and to be able to love themselves. The characters on this show and I am not counting the au are able to make the right choices because they have free will. Rumple did not have free will and that is the main difference between him and the others. he was able to fight his curse in SB because it was muted and easier to control until he brought magic back and his year long control by Zelena. Possessed people lose their free will like Rumple did but now that the DO has been driven out, he is still going to have the issues he had before and during his time as the DO's host. Rumple has a journey ahead and he is going to need all the love and support he can get.

confessor_meggy

As heartbreaking as that episode is, I love all the parts in SB (I do tend to skip Belle freaking out and chip breaking, but shhh)

I actually don't have a strong opinion on good and evil. I just believe people are grey and their lives is driven by cause/effect of their choices. I think good and evil are too concept that I can't use to descrive someone, as they are concepts given by others perception, not something given. Basically the phrase "every villain thinks he's an hero in his mind". Self-perception vs other perception. I was raised catholic and I'm familiar with its topics/believes, but I'm agnostic so I don't generally dwell too much on those concepts.

fox24

well the Charimings in the au were pawns by Isaac. It's like somebody took their heart and said your a bad person so I can't label them evil in the same way I don't blame characters for the things they do under heart/dagger control.

I guess isaac might have wrote Snow a backstory that Eva killed James.

I don't think evil has been framed as passive this season.


I don't have a set roles either. I do like to follow Emma advice that in the real world were all just people no heroes and villains.

i do agree it's choices and cause/effect