PhoenixRising

Yeah, until it gets here.

I do have another week of vacation I'm taking on the week of Halloween. I thought I might as well.

Nikki K

Enterprise was actually pretty decent for the most part. I liked the third season best since it wasn't stand alone episode so much but had a continuous story arc.

Hi Cathy! How are things?!

BL.Arinna_1982

Hey there!

PhoenixRising

Yeah, I think it was the Xindi? That's mentioned in Star Trek: Beyond, but I won't spoil you with the details. I was kind of fascinated that since Enterprise takes place chronologically a century before the events of the original Star Trek, its continuity will still be technically canon in the new alternate timeline movies.

I'm gonna try to get caught up with Twin Peaks before the finale.

Nikki K

Yep, they went searching for the Xindi – it was actually a really intriguing season because as I said, very few stand-alone episodes. Oh, you're not spoiling me. I've watched it... I don't know –*I liked some aspects of it but all in all I must say that I don't think the new movies are getting any better. The first one was outstanding. I liked all the banter between Bones and Alice Eve's character in the second one but yeah... I mean I liked the references to the original Khan movie but was kind of meh about Cumberbatch. Beyond was more fun, especially the motorcyle scene set to one of my favourite songs ever. But nothing I was overly enthusiastic about.

Good luck!

BL.Arinna_1982

I'm still coughing.

Nikki K

Sorry to hear that, Arinna.

PhoenixRising

I hope you feel better, Arinna.

Hi, Nina!

Oh, so you watched Beyond? So then you know that "Krall" turned out to actually be Captain Balthazar Edison of Starfleet, USS Franklin. Formerly of MACO - Military Assault Command Operations. That was a direct reference to the Enterprise series which had Captain Archer's crew working with MACO against the Xindi. He used that alien technology to extend his life, which ultimately mutated him into an alien form, and he wanted to destroy the Federation to bring humanity back to where he felt it needed to be, focused more on strength and self preservation through struggle and hardship, and more attention paid to Earth's best interests. I've heard debates on YouTube where some actually think that Edison was right, and that the whole Federation concept that Gene Roddenberry came up with is a bit unrealistic. Even the film itself can be seen as a direct shot across the bow of Roddenberry's canon in terms of how both Starfleet and its officers are depicted. I think the filmmakers are reevaluating Roddenberry and trying to do something new and more practical.

Oh, I forgot what song was playing during the motorcycle scene. I was mostly watching Kirk nearly get himself killed. I also liked how they brought back the Beastie Boys song that young Kirk was listening to while driving his step-father's car in the first movie.

I appreciated all the Khan references in Into Darkness, but like you I wasn't blown away by Cumberbatch; no one can ever replace Ricardo Montalban. And I don't think it even came close to Wrath of Khan.

I'm gonna try and get all caught up on Twin Peaks by my days off this week.

Nikki K

It's not really working for me though. I mean there's a reason why Star Trek became this thing and it's mainly because of Roddenberry's vision/world building and ideals. I mean for me saying "we're reevaluating this" would be like re-doing Harry Potter but maybe without Wizards with time and who lives in Scotland anyway and usually evil actually kind of wins at least a little so let's figure that all in.

Beastie Boys - "Sabotage" if I recall correctly.

Yeah... that was the main letdown with "Into Darkness"... "Wrath of Khan" it was not.

Good luck!

BL.Arinna_1982

Being really lazy today...

PhoenixRising

Aww, get some rest, Arinna.


Hi, Nina! I hope you're feeling okay today. Ah, Sabotage! Thanks for the info! And I agree, Into Darkness didn't come close to Wrath of Khan.


Well, I do have some issues with the current movie series, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with challenging Roddenberry's vision. Sure, he was a great conceptualist, and the concept for Star Trek and the entire mythology really worked well. But I also acknowledge that Star Trek was at its best when Roddenberry had very little to do with the creative direction of the show. I don't mean that to sound cruel, but even William Shatner admitted in his memoirs that while Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek, it was writer/producer Gene L. Coon that made it fly.

One thing I've noticed is that of all the greatest episodes of the original series, the ones fans consistently rank in their top 10 and top 20 lists, none were written by Roddenberry:

The City On The Edge of Forever
The Trouble With Tribbles
The Naked Time
Balance of Terror
The Devil In The Dark
Journey To Babel
The Doomsday Machine
The Changeling
Mirror, Mirror
The Enterprise Incident
The Tholian Web
Space Seed
Where No Man Has Gone Before
The Corbomite Maneuver


Roddenberry's original pilot, The Cage, was rejected for being "too cerebral," which basically meant it was boring as hell. The plot dragged on too much, it took too long to get where it was going, and by the time it got there it wasn't telling the audience anything they didn't already know. Humans don't like being prisoners in cages, put on display like animals? You don't say? What was worse, The Cage failed to establish a real emotional connection between the audience and the characters; you just didn't care enough about them to follow them on this journey to both its emotional and intellectual payoff. No disrespect to Jeffrey Hunter, but his Captain Christopher Pike just didn't seem animated enough. And Leonard Nimoy's Spock wasn't really given enough to work with in that pilot, and it wasn't until the later episodes that he really came to life as a character. The second pilot, Where No Man Has Gone Before, had an equally fascinating philosophical theme regarding psychic ability, the evolution of the human species, and what happens when humans amass so much power they become godlike. Will that power corrupt them? But it also showed the human cost of Kirk having to sacrifice his best friend, Gary Mitchell, in order to prevent him from harming anyone. And Kirk was far more potent than Pike ever was, able to really touch the audience.

It wasn't until The Cage was released during the original series as the two part episode, The Menagerie, that it really gained poignancy, mostly because of the wrap-around storyline involving Spock disobeying orders in order to take Captain Pike back to Talos IV where he could live out the remainder of his life in the illusionary fantasy world where he could be normal again, instead of living out the remainder of his life trapped in that broken, crippled body. As well as testing the bond of friendship and loyalty between Kirk and Spock. The Menagerie actually succeeded in doing what The Cage couldn't, in asking deep questions while also making an emotional connection with the audience, which is when Trek was always at its best. In Amok Time, after Spock believes he has killed Kirk during his Pon Farr fever and confronts T'Pring about her manipulation of the events in order to force Spock to break off their engagement so she could be with her lover, S'Tonn, he releases T'Pring and tells S'Tonn that she is his to have, issuing a warning. "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." And the audience is like, "Whoa! That is deep!" Unlike The Cage, Amok Time made its point in a way that the audience not only cared about, but was revelatory in the way that they could related to it without feeling like they were being told something they already knew.

Writer Harlon Ellison was also critical of Roddenberry. He wrote The City On The Edge of Forever, but his original script had a crewmember who was a drug addict that was going through withdrawal symptoms become unstable and go crazy. He escaped using the transporter to the surface of the planet where The Guardian of Forever was, and he was the one who went back in time and messed up history. But Roddenberry was adamant that in his "utopian" future there would be no drug addiction, which is why the script was altered so that Dr. McCoy accidentally injects himself with a drug that makes him go crazy, and you know the rest. Ellison complained that Roddenberry's change affected the story and robbed it of its power. The same thing happened with Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Writer/director Nicholas Meyer had someone smoking a cigarette, which Roddenberry objected to, insisting that no one in his future smoked. Meyer was like, "people have been smoking for centuries, and now you expect them to just stop?" But then Roddenberry objected to almost everything about Wrath of Khan, which goes back to my point.

Roddenberry was very involved in the development of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, after Paramount's original plan to do a sequel TV series called Star Trek: Phase II was cancelled. Star Trek: TMP was based on two stories written by Roddenberry - 'In Thy Image,' which was intended to be the two hour pilot episode for Star Trek: Phase II, and 'The God Thing,' an unpublished manuscript by Roddenberry. This was where the storyline about the Voyager 6 space probe returning to Earth as this gigantic living machine generating an energy cloud came from. But while I love the movie for director Robert Wise's visual brilliance, the Oscar nominated special effects of Douglas Trumbull and John Dykstra, and Jerry Goldsmith's majestic musical score, the screenplay itself dragged and basically had the same problems as The Cage. But after Star Trek: TMP came out, Harve Bennett came on as Executive Producer of the Star Trek movies, and Roddenberry had limited to no involvement in them whatsoever. And that's when the movies got good. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Star Trek III: The Search For Spock, and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home became one of the best sci-fi trilogies of all time, and the movie series was at the very height of its popularity, all with Roddenberry cut out of the creative process. Roddenberry himself objected to the darker, more militaristic tone of Bennett and Meyer's approach, but Paramount saw that it worked and went with it. And let's not forget that when Paramount developed Star Trek: The Next Generation, the first three seasons were just horrible, and as usual, it was when Roddenberry had a direct involvement in the development of the series. It wasn't until the end of season 3 that Executive Producer Rick Berman took over the creative direction of the show, introduced The Borg, brought back the Romulans, and rearranged the cast, most notably getting rid of Wesley Crusher and making Geordi LaForge Chief Engineer. The show almost immediately improved and not only went up in the ratings, but earned an Emmy nomination for Best Dramatic Series in its final season.

It just seems like the peoepl who took over for Roddenberry did a better job of applying his vision than Roddenberry did, and his vision at times did limit the mythology of Star Trek to the point where a lot of deconstructing happened over time. And not just in the new movie series, but in some of the later TV shows as well.

Nikki K

I'm talking about the overall vision, Alex, no matter who executed it. Star Trek won't be Star Trek anymore if they lose the concept of the Federation and the idea of scientifc space exploration paired with diplomatic rather than belligerent missions.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Nina! Oh, yeah... well of course that's true.


How are you feeling? I'm at work and really tired. Thankfully I'm off tomorrow.

Nikki K

I'm just saying... there's a lot of sci-fi out there but that is what made Star Trek stand out early on. Realistic or not. There was something yesterday in the seminar series about how "utopia" or the idea of creating a better world is just not very fashionable in fiction or science-fiction even at the moment. Anyway...

Ah, good for you. Yeah, same problem - work, really tired, more work.

BL.Arinna_1982

I just drank 50ml of whiskey to stop coughing. Feeling goooood!