Nikki K

Look, you can ship whatever you like obviously but please extend the same courtesy to me. I actually like Barry/Iris. And I liked Ronnie/Caitlin. I don't really want her to have a new love interest really. I only want to see her and Cisco being really good friends. But we can agree that Julian was pretty annoying and only there to irritate Barry and to be new boring obsolete boyfriend material to Caitlin.

I'm actually excited about the "Laurel" being back full time next season but I wonder what they are going to do with Dinah. It seems a bit crappy to bring her on and then throw her away again.

I just really really hate being hooked up to an IV yet again. It's so... urgh.

PhoenixRising

Oh, I didn't know you were a Barry/Iris shipper. Or I must've forgotten. My apologies. But I still think The Flash has declined in quality since its excellent first season. I personally just don't like Iris because the show is too heavily based on the 1990 Flash TV show and the writers haven't fit her into that dynamic well.

Yeah, the Dinah/Laurel situation is problematic. The finale kind of reminded me of Lost in a way. The whole island blew up. And I thought that Nyssa defeated Talia a little too quickly. This is Talia al Ghul we're talking about. She's the mother of Batman's son, but they've really diminished her on Arrow. I did like seeing Slade Wilson return, and I have to say that Dolph Lundgren is a much better actor than I gave him credit for. It was nice seeing Oliver's flashback scenes finally come full circle to the point when he finally returned home from the island. Who knew that he was also in Russia and China during that time period, and even visited Star City when no one was looking?

Ugh, that doesn't sound good. I've never had an I.V. put in me, but it looks uncomfortable. I just hope you get to leave soon.

Nikki K

Well I would have agreed with your take on Iris during the first season – she didn't seem to fit in not being part of the gang, not knowing Barry's secret but I think since they've come a long way. I didn't really care too much for season 1 myself apart from the Ronnie/Caitlin stuff. My favourite was season 2. I agree though that season 3 was kind of all over the place and not at its best.

Ah, I haven't seen the finale yet. I just thought well … at first I was like meh Dinah but she grew on me. She's kind of no nonsense and they need a police liaison with Quentin out of the picture. I'll comment on the rest once I've seen the episode. Yeah that's kind of tragic I guess but I love Nyssa so it's better her than anybody in my opinion. The thing that always feels so heavy handed to me for seasons now on Arrow are the flashbacks. I couldn't have cared less about the whole Russian mob business. But yay for Slade. And at least the villain was an upgrade to last season's.

Yeah, it's uncomfortable as hell. Pray that you'll never experience that. *sigh*

PhoenixRising

Well, Barry/Caitlin for me mirrors Barry/Christina from the original Flash TV show, which is one of the many reasons I ship them. They even brought Christina back for this show, only she's running Mercury Labs instead. They even had a little reunion with Amanda Pays and John Wesley-Shipp in one episode. I wasn't too keen on Ronnie. I didn't think he was all that interesting a character, and Jax for me has been a more interesting Firestorm on Legends of Tomorrow. They even gave him the Firestorm outfit. But yeah, the show is getting tiresome with its evil speedster plotlines and surprise twists: Harrison Wells is actually dead and it's really Eobard Thawne/Reverse Flash impersonating him! Jay Garrick is really Zoom, and he's really Hunter Zolomon impersonating the real Jay Garrick who is the man in the iron mask, and is also Henry Allen's doppelganger! Savitar is really future Barry Allen created by present day Barry creating Flashpoint! And on and on....

And the convoluted plotlines that have people contradicting their own previous behavior and making stupid decisions, and having story arcs that seemingly go nowhere, having events erased or altered due to time travel, etc., is all starting to remind me of when Heroes on NBC started going bad. That turned out to be a complete mess. I'd have preferred it if Julian had remained the big bad this season as Doctor Alchemy. That seemed like a refreshing plotline that they got rid of way too early, and we didn't need Julian on Team Flash.

OMG, you haven't seen the finale yet? Damn, I'm sorry. I thought you had from what you said. Well, I'm glad I didn't give away too much. You still have to see how everything ends. It's a really great finale, a lot better than last season. I'm still curious how they're gonna have Dinah and Earth 2 Laurel on the same show next season. It's gonna be like a quarterback controversy in NFL Football. Who's gonna be your starter, Dinah or Laurel? As for the Nyssa/Talia thing... well, let's just say nothing is certain. You have to watch it.

I just hope you don't have to experience it for too long, Nina. Just make sure you rest once you're out of the hospital.

Nikki K

I like Jax. I think we never got enough to see where Ronnie was concerned to get a good opinion. I was opinion for more multi-verse episodes where he and Caitlin could be their evil counterparts but sadly that only happened once and was cut too short. And yeah, there was no point of bringing Julian on board with the team.

I kind of hope they do and make it work wihtout too much controversy. Ah, don't say that! Nyssa is the light of my life. I mean she's Oliver's wife!!! Yeah, I wanted to watch it but then I was preoccupied with ahm... honestly I don't know... pain, staring at walls after coming home from church. So yeah.

Yeah, I just hope I don't have to sit around all day until somebody deigns to look at me. Though that's a distinct possibility.

PhoenixRising

Sorry, Nina. I wasn't sure if you were still here. I'm also posting on the Heroes and How I Met Your Mother boards.

I like Jax too. I can't believe he's actually British. How many British actors are in the Arrowverse? But yeah, they did treat Ronnie like a throwaway character, but that's probably because they knew he was gonna die by the end of the first season because Ronnie did die in the comics as well.

I'm sorry, Nina! I love Nyssa as well. I love it when she calls Oliver "husband." That always cracks me up. They should've consummated at least once, just so each could find out what Sara saw in the other.

Aww, I'm sorry, Nina. I've been in a hospital before, once when I pulled my back muscles. I was on painkillers and muscle relaxants, and I was in excruciating pain to the point where I couldn't even stand or sit upright. Don't ask me what I was doing when it happened, it's stupid.

Nikki K

I think part of it was that the actor was on "The X-Files" from what I read. But yeah. I would have liked a Doppelgänger Bonnie&Clyde multiverse appearance eventually... I'd take that over any further Julian lovey dovey crap any day.

I just adore Nyssa. And same here. I think they should at least have her fill in at some social functions at the mayor's wife. That'd be a hoot and a half. Can you imagine Oliver's panic stricken face praying that he doesn't have to do damage control of any kind but not being very optimistic really?

Okay, I won't ask.

PhoenixRising

Oh, yeah... I remember that Robbie Amell was on last year's season of The X-Files with Lauren Ambrose as a younger version of Mulder and Scully. Only they were a bit more skeptical about the paranormal. But that was very brief, and the next season of The X-Files probably won't be back until next year. I still think it was because the writers never planned on having Ronnie survive that first season no matter what. And Julian is just desperation on the part of the writers. It's a classic, "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" thing, or "these aren't the droids you're looking for."

"No, don't ship Caitlin with Barry! Here... ship her with... uhhh, this guy! Yeah! Please, just forget about all that karaoke stuff in season one with Barry and Caitlin, or Grant and Danielle kissing when Caitlin kissed the shape shifter disguised as Barry. And also that part where Grant and Danielle kissed again when Caitlin went all Killer Frost on Barry. Please, ship Barry and Iris! Move along, nothing to see here!" It's really lame. It's like what Anton Chekhov said, don't hang a gun on a wall if you're not gonna fire it later.

Yeah, I think you mentioned that to me before. I'd love to see Nyssa got to some social gathering with Oliver, and him having to try and prevent her from doing something totally embarrassing or insulting someone. I just love Kristina Law. And ironically, she's speaking with an English accent, but she's an American from New Jersey.

Okay, I'll tell you. I was lifting something very heavy at work that I shouldn't have been lifting into a trash compactor. It was a paint mixer. I know, I was stupid.

Nikki K

Actually I think Julian is a marketing ploy that worked very well at all the conventions for instance – I mean the actor was in Harry Potter. And I know that's why a lot of people who'd never in a million years have watched 'The Flash' are suddenly turning in. Personally, I'd have Ronnie (Robbie) over Julian (Tom) ever day on 'The Flash'. Well, in a few guest appearances.

Well, I stick with it. I ship Barry/Iris till my dying day. Sorry. I respect that you don't but please respect me in return, okay?

You know so many actors try to do accents one way or another and it's horrible but Katarina Law? After David Anders, she's only the second person to actually pull that off for my ears.

Yeah... don't do that again, please?!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Nina! How are you feeling today?

Of course, as I said I respect you shipping Barry/Iris. I just still think that these "boyfriend-of-the-month" storylines they put Caitlin in, whether it's Hunter Zolomon or Julian Albert, is a ploy to try and backpedal or discourage Barry/Caitlin shippers. I don't really think that The Flash needed Julian as a marketing ploy considering that it's still CW's highest rated show, although the ratings have fallen since season one and season 3 was its lowest rated season yet. The guy who played Draco really isn't much of a draw to be honest.

Yeah, I really thought Katarina Law killed it with her accent as Nyssa. What did you think of Lexa Doig as Talia? I think she did a good job as well. Yes, David Anders does a great English accent given that he's American, and I'd also add James Marsters(Spike on Buffy The Vampire Slayer) to that list as well. He was so good he got cast on BBC's Torchwood.

I promise I'll never do anything so stupid again, Nina. Believe me, I spent a long time kicking myself for lifting that stupid thing. It took years for my back to heal properly.

Nikki K

I don't want to talk about it publicly but I had bad news today after a day at hospital. Anyway. I did watch the "Arrow" finale. I thought the whole thing was weird, I mean so Chase didn't even tell his own villains that he rigged the island? I mean Evelyn was in that cage (or did I miss that somebody freed her), where did they all vanish to anyway? But I loved Nyssa putting down Merlyn – her delivery is always so dry and hilariious.

Well, to tell you the truth I don't think that TPTB think about Barry/Caitlin shippers. I just find that TPTB rarely think about UC couples unless they gain a crazy fan following and the writers/producers are insecure as to where to take things. And the boyfriends of the week are just really random because they don't want to settle on bringing in someone permanently, which is fair enough because you can see that with Julian it's not like he can really contribute anything to the team that someone else doesn't already. And so we'll be stuck with a Caitlin that'll probably never have a permanent relationship again and always on some level mourn Ronnie.

Well, I politely disagree – Tom Felton drew in a completely different audience to the show, people who normally wouldn't have watched a superhero show. I know that for a fact from people I met on tumblr or livejournal etc. - they only started watching because of "Draco" and were motivated to go to Flash convention panels and purchase photo ops etc. because of Tom Felton. So while I don't have any numbers here – I wouldn't be so fast to disgard this as making an impact.

Yeah, I like Lexa Doig but given the problem with Talia as a character on "Arrrow" and also the fact that both Lexa and Katarina (though I don't know, got her show renewed? Lexa's did though) are on other shows, it's kind of like – why are they baiting us with this complicated sister/family relationship if the actresses are not likely to be available for a storyline that'd do the topic and their acting skills justice.

Hah, yeah – for me it's Katarina and David. James was okay but he slipped once in a while.

Yeah don't kick yourself, in fact avoid doing all sorts of bodily harm to yourself if at all possible.

PhoenixRising

Oh, I'm sorry, Nina. Can I PM you?

Yeah, but I think that Chase(or Morrison) just wanted to prove his point about Oliver and get revenge on him. It's pretty clear that Prometheus never intended for anyone to leave that island alive, including himself.

Yeah, and that's really my problem with The Flash writers, their penchant for doing things that don't serve the story and waste good characters, but oh well. And you really think that Felton drew in new viewers? Because I really didn't see it on my end. This season of The Flash saw a significant ratings drop from previous seasons, which probably also had something to do with the overall weakness of the season 3 storyline from Flashpoint to Savitar.

Well, I like Lexa as well, but while both she and Katarina are on different shows, I think Arrow uses them sparingly and based on their availability. That's also why Thea hasn't been on the show that often and walked away from her "Speedy" persona, because actress Willa Holland's schedule was in conflict with the show and they could only use her when she was available. My problem with Talia stemmed from her being such an important character in the Batman mythology, which is why I was surprised that Arrow was even allowed to use her. They've been liberally "borrowing" plots and characters from Batman, but only peripherally. Using the mother of Bruce Wayne's child is as close as Arrow has ever gotten to the Batman mythos, aside from Oliver briefly considering having Felicity use "Oracle" as a code name before realizing it was "taken." Damn right it's taken. But I think that while it's true that we might not get as well developed a storyline involving the characters as we'd like, at least we get them some of the time. A little is better than nothing.

Believe me, Nina, I'm trying to avoid damaging myself as much as possible. That's another reason why I took the morning shift... less strenuous.

Nikki K

Sure, you can always PM me.

Well, in that case I have to say, the whole lot that followed Chase was pretty daft if they didn't see that there was no escape and reward planned for them. Ultimately it only made limited sense for instance why Black Siren would team up with him. And I must say I am not happy with how they put Katie together for that role... looks so pseudo-goth. I hope she gets a make-over next season and I still hope they won't throw Dinah under the bus. Also did Evelyn strike you as suicidal?

Yeah, I got where your problem with Talia came from. That was what I was referring to when I said her presence on "Arrow" as a whole. I don't know... I just don't want the story to fall under to table or to become a mess. What is Willa up to? I thought they just reduced her episode count because they didn't really know what to do with her since she stopped being "Speedy".

Well, I can only tell you what I saw from people on tumblr and LJ and people I know go to conventions etc. – so I think they did tap into a whole new audience with that casting. How big it is, I don't know. I mean as I said, I haven't seen any numbers. But let's put it that way – you say that 'The Flash' has already lost viewers, so here are some it's gained... couldn't buffer the whole loss obviously but maybe it would have been even more significant otherwise.

PhoenixRising

Well, I'm not sure that all of Chase's allies(including Evelyn) knew that he had rigged the entire island to blow. As for Black Siren, she is an Earth 2 supervillain, and I get the idea that on her world, Oliver, Sara, and her parents are all dead. We know for sure that Earth 2 Oliver died on the Queen's Gambit, which probably means that Sara died as well, since Oliver was part of the reason why she even made it off Lian Yu alive. Both Katie Cassidy and Juliana Harkavy are contracted for next season, so both Laurel and Dinah will be back as regulars. It'll be interesting to see how they manage to have two Black Canaries on the same show. I'm assuming t'll probably involve Earth 2 Laurel's redemption.

Yeah, I don't want Talia or Nyssa's storyline to end up a throwaway either. I just hope they're able to handle it well next season and not just give up on it... unless Talia died in the explosion. And last I heard, Willa's schedule is what prevented her from being on Arrow full time this season. She was in the Invasion crossover and a few episodes here and there, but it was really her availability that limited what the show runners could do with her, which is the reason why they had her quit being Speedy. They would've had her around a lot more if they could. I still wish she'd kept the name "Red Arrow."

Also, on a side note, considering that Adrian Chase/Prometheus is really Simon Morrison, and the name "Adrian Chase was just an alias, I'm really hoping they solve the mystery of who Vigilante is in the next season. They introduced his character this season and just forgot about him in the last couple of months. In the comics, Adrian Chase is Vigilante(and later Dave Winston for a brief period of time), so I'm wondering if The Vigilante is the real Adrian Chase that Prometheus was impersonating.

Oh, really? From everything I've read I didn't really see that Julian moved the needle all that much with viewers, and The Flash has been suffering from a ratings drop as well as negative critical reception this season, so who knows? Time will tell, I guess. But I'm still not looking forward to anything Julian-related next season, if I watch it at all.

Nikki K

That's good news. I'm actually open to a redemption storyline.
So you think Black Siren was motivated by taking revenge on Oliver since she couldn't take revenge on Earth-2 Oliver?

I feel sorry for Evelyn. She seems so lost.

Hah, see I heard that they didn't know what to do with her character and therefore cut back her episodes. And I agree, I wish they had kept her as the "Red Arrow". In all honesty, I come into every bloody season hoping that finally great things will happen for Thea and then it's like they start something and forget about it kind of sort of again. Hence my being worried about Talia and Nyssa – they'll probably forget about the whole thing. You know funnily one of my favourite episodes was the one with Constantine (and was Vixen – not the one from LoT but her granddaughter in one)... that worked well. But I just remember that was last season. it's all such a blur to be honest.

Well the corners of fandom I touch on went nuts over Tom Felton being in it. And I don't think either of us has any numbers for comparison purposes so it's a moot point. Ach, is it confirmed he'll be back? Why? What's the point? *sigh* There are other characters I'd rather see back. Linda/Doctor Light for example. Isn't she supposed to become Wally's wife eventually? But I might have mixed that up.