Drunk On You

Nikki K

Tftnt.

I didn't watch it really, merely skimmed through it and was relieved that it didn't look as bad as I expected. Is it just me or did anyone else find the scene pretty harsh where Cesare rips off Ursula's veil/nun's habit for the painter so that she would model something she obviously didn't want to do? I mean we discussed Ursuala and her usefulness a lot before but there I felt sorry for her and while I understand that Cesare has heaps of anger festering in him this seemed very cruel and uncalled for to me. I'm just saying. Perhaps I didn't catch it wholly. As I said, I merely skimmed through it so far.

ring of fire

I think the episode was better than I expected because I never liked Lucrezia/Paolo very much.

I know Juan is supposed to be the bad guy and I don't support his actions but I understand why he acts the way he does. He's so obsessed with the fact that maybe he isn't a Borgia that he needs to prove himself all the time and doesn't want him or his family to mix with the common people.

IMO Lucrezia/Paolo is supposed to be a young naive love. Like Cesare explained her father married her to a monster and she found a comfort in a person who was nice to her despite his background.

Cesare truly loves Lucrezia after all he did. And I'm sure he wasn't happy about Lucrezia sleeping with Paolo again.


I didn't like Ursula but I felt very bad for her in that scene. I think they are trying to show that Cesare has a dark side and that side is starting to appear.

Nikki K

I agree with everything you said. Plus aside from Juan proving that he is a Borgia, I think Rodrigo's "family" and "together" speech has really got to him. Obviously no outsiders - peasants or not can be allowed into this circle.

PhoenixRising

Interestingly, the history makes no mention of Lucrezia getting involved with a stable-boy, which would be unusual since she was a noblewoman and not known for getting invovled with mere commoners. It was actually Perotto, a messenger for Lucrezia's father, Pope Alexander, who claimed to be the baby's father. Perotto was responsible for the correspondence between Lucrezia and her father, and Perotto and Lucrezia may have gotten close during this time.

I think Juan can tell that Cesare and Lucrezia are very much a team and are closer to each other than anyone else. They both carry a lot of resentment towards Juan and he's starting to feel like the odd man out, especially since he's getting shipped off to Spain to marry Queen Isabella's niece.

Cesare loves Lucrezia more than his own life and probably wishes he could be Narcissus to her Echo. But he desires her happiness more than anything and that's why he was willing to help Palo. But I also think you're right about Cesare finally starting to become the man Niccolò Machiavelli wrote about.

Nikki K

We discussed that in the other thread. Also the part where historians are sure that Peretto's death occured through mere drowning in the Tiber. Whether he fell in himself or was helped, remains unclear as the wording in the sources of the time was carefully chosen - implying both might be possible.

By the same token, historians doubt that there was a baby at all and if there was, it is most likely that it was stillborn (see Sarah Bradford's biography on "Lucrezia Borgia"). Giovanni, the Infans Romanus was indeed most likely to be Rodrigo's son from an unknown mother. (Again for more sources, see other thread.)

While I'm usually a historic nitpicker, I don't see the harm in taking creative freedom here. In the end it was merely a side-story which was important to define and further Lucrezia's character, not more and not less - in my opinion.

Now this is a historical bit I care more about, so I am actually glad they are doing that (albeit of course not overly correctly). I'm most thankful that the bride will

ring of fire

I read about Perotto and of course it was a lot more realistic for her to get involved with a messenger than a stable boy.


I love Juan so I hope he doesn't stay away for long Maybe there could be a time jump between S2 & S3.

Everything I have read about Cesare they always describe him as someone very evil, that he was worst than Rodrigo. I think some things will start affecting him and he'll start becoming worse and worse. Specially if Lucrezia gets married again and she's taken away from him.


I don't understand why they wouldn't have kept her real name. Juan is a spanish name so I don't see a problem in having a character named Maria.

Nikki K

I'm saying this because I read that they cast a Spanish lady

xinya

Just saw the episode....it was good. I felt for Cesare when Lucrezia was telling him about how she is still in love with Paolo....and I can't believe he helped her get laid essentialy! But it was soo sweet and selfless.
Juan, seems to just have a lot of unresolved issues hes bubbling up inside and it probably is due to his insecurities.
Also I agree with Nina about Cesare being rather agressive with Ursula (why is she back?) i was like the dark side begins.
On to next week!!

Nikki K

I wonder if this is part of this "new" Cesare they are selling us - him doing things for the one he loves despite hurting himself. (Reminds me of Cesare and Fiametta on 'Borgia') - So he is basically chastising himself which gets him even more frustrated.

I said it many a times, I do not understand why they didn't make Ursula entering the nunnery her last scene. I would not have been so bloody annoyed with her character then. That aside, I guess she was not displaced in that scene (for the first time since the cutting off of her hair in season 1). As Nelly suggested, they try to elaborate on his "bad" side. So being cruel to somebody he once claimed to love is probably another step down into the abyss. Even though one can argue that even here she may have been somewhat of a substitute - acting as a sounding board for his frustrations that clearly lay with the Lucrezia/Paolo situation and his involvement in it. He would never hurt Lucrezia but in that moment he might have wanted to hurt someone else in addition to himself. Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Who knows? In any case I felt bad for Ursula being manhandled like this. It just wasn't okay.

ring of fire

I hope Ursula doesn't show up again. Her character is pointless.

I think Cesare did it because he truly loves her and he understood the situation. Also Cesare is older than Lucrezia so he probably thought she needed closure with her first love.

Drunk On You

That would of been a perfect ending.

I never thought of that Juan is trying to prove himself as a Borgia because there's a chance/rumor that he's not really a Borgia. But also didn't Rodrigo told him that he is a Borgia? Or maybe he's afraid of that maybe out of nowhere Rodrigo will stop claiming him as one?

Palo!

Nikki K

Well, Ursula will

As for Juan fearing he his not a Borgia... that strikes me as a bit funny, also did in sesaon 1. On Borgia Rodrigo doubted that Joffre was his son (pretty stupid if you ask me as the actors playing him and Lucrezia looked very much alike) but eventually caved in when Vanozza gave him hell, telling him that Joffre was born seven months or so after he broke it off with her and not ten. Such a funny scene. Assumpta Serna was cold and furious at the same time which is when I stopped thinking of her acting as somewhat flat. However, I think Jeremy Irons would have done a much better job looking guilty and terrified in that scene - pretty much like he did in 2x01 with Giulia coming back and him having to hide his other mistress but perhaps tenfold more so. Then historically there is the fact that Pedro Luis (Rodrigo's eldest son) left money to both Juan and Lucrezia but not to Cesare which some took as an indication that Cesare might not be Rodrigo's son. Something that was alluded to in some books -- K.T. Wills for instance refered to the rumours that Vanozza had an affaire with Della Rovere before she got with Rodrigo and that Cesare might have come of this affaire.

I do think though that after having insulted his mother in S1, having a bad rapport with Cesare since or even before S1, having made a cuckhold out of Joffre in S1 and having killed Lucrezia's lover in S2 --Juan is somewhat running out of options in terms of immediate family members who would love him unconditionally and without a little hint of bitterness involved. So he naturally has to cling to his father and try everything to please him.

And well yes, Paolo is toast. While I wasn't that much into him, let's have a moment of silence.

xinya

Oh dear that spoiler might send Cesare over the edge! I do wish they had kept Sancia, she was interesting and where is Joffre?

I saw the kiss scene between C & L and thought.....the beginning of many! I still can't believe I'm shipping an incestous story line!
Anyway, I found Miceletto kind of funny....but he is the guy you would never want to meet in a dark alley ever.
It was interesting to also see the humanitarian side of Rodrigo.....but what was funny was Juans reaction to the pope wanting to walk the streets. Especially when the pope said "well our saviour did that" and Juan replying "But he wasn't the pope".

Nikki K

I wonder if

That was a good one, no doubt.

I hope if/when they bring Joffre back that Aiden has grown and that they do not re-cast the role. Recasting is just cheap.