[Nikki K]

Was she more sympathetic? It's been a while that I watched it so I can't say. The only thing I recall is that she was pushed to be with Henry despite her not really wanting to at first.

I just really hate it when they replace actors. Admittedly, the second actress looked a lot more mature. So why was she replaced?

Okay, I have to watch Tudor!Ursula again if we really want to compare her to Borgia!Ursula... ... perhaps after finishing the 'Borgia' recaps and a few other things for the other media thread.

[Vanora]

The thing the two Ursulas seemed to have in common is that they both seemed to serve little purpose but to further a guy's storyline and that they seemed to have no clear motivations themselves.

Well, she stepped over her oath of service to Queen Anne quite easily, but without having the flare or scheming Anne Boleyn had. After Jane became Queen she seemed a bit more human to me.

It always interests me a lot about why when actresses or actors are replaced, but I couldn't find any info. For Game of Thrones, they replaced Daenerys and Catelyn at the last moment too. Dany was first to be played by the same actress who portrayed Catherine Howard in the Tudors, but from what I got she didn't really have the Dany-vibe.

[Nikki K]

Well, I don't think that makes her inhuman - everyone saw that Anne's star was declining and her family obviously pushed her to seize the day. And if it hadn't been her, it had been someone else. Perhaps I don't take the oath thing so seriously because Anne did the exact same thing to her predecessor. So... and yes there was no flare and scheming on her part which made it easier to "like" her or at least consider her harmless. I am really curious why they replaced her. The first one didn't seem to do a bad job imo. But then Jane Seymour never was my favourite out of the wives.

Hahah - we are going to do a scene by scene Ursulas comparison.

Oh, they replaced Tamzin? I can't comment on that I don't watch the show. In any case, that was probably my favourite scene ever on the Tudors: Kathryn and Mary fighting over cake!

[Vanora]

Oh, I don't excuse Anne at all, but she seemed a lot more human and interesting to me during Henry's courtship. With inhuman I meant bland, not evil. Did not think of her as particularly good either. The juxtaposition of Anne and Jane picking out clothes showed that nicely: Anne for her execution and Jane happily for her wedding. Have tried to find out why they replaced her, but never found anything.

Sarah Bolger did very well portraying Mary and her upturned nose at Katherine made for some great scenes.

They replaced Tamzin before the show aired, but I believe they had already shot scenes with her. Guess it all comes full circle with 'Anne Boleyn' now having a role as queen in GoT.

As for Ursula comparisons: The Tudors one definitely seemed to be having more fun.

[Vanora]

=Double=

[Nikki K]

I agree with bland - but that I found was the character and not necessarily either of the actresses. Oh, I don't remember that scene tbh - I think at that point I was already in tears about Anne soon being executed and giving her little speech.

As for the Ursulas... hm... I think the reason I didn't hate Tudor!Ursula so much was because I didn't care for either the actress or the show all that much. Borgias!Ursula made me mad because - I could accept her as a tool to further Cesare's decent into darkness but thought that her getting her hair cut, becoming a nun would have been the PERFECT last scene for her. But it dragged on and on with no good reason in my opinion. And I was mad because as I stated I think Ruta deserves better roles... well or at least something I actually want to see her in.

Oh we were talking more fun... hm... I don't know. Tudor!Ursula -- I always thought that all the scheming and sleeping around should lead to something but it didn't and it didn't look very fun to me. More like - another day of hard work in the life of an evil opportunist.

[Vanora]

Haha, my guess was she just enjoyed running around the court with handsome men. It wouldn't surprise me though if the writers did not even think much of her motivations and just put her in to show Henry sleeping wth someone. It was quite a contrast when she seemed to partly accept Mr. Pirate because of the necklace he gave her, but then refused Henry's offer of assistance.

Borgia!Ursula seemed interesting during the dance, but that was soon spoiled when she seemed shocked Cesare was pursuing her. Ehhh? Did she not just invite a random guy at a dance to save her? When we still saw her as a nun, it baffled me. All that time could have been used showing us other people doing interesting things. I would have loved to have seen the French court, but heck, even Columbus sharing pineapple pie with Queen Isabella would have had more relevance than this

[Nikki K]

Originally Posted by Vanora (View Post) It was quite a contrast when she seemed to partly accept Mr. Pirate because of the necklace he gave her, but then refused Henry's offer of assistance. Borgia!Ursula seemed interesting during the dance, but that was soon spoiled when she seemed shocked Cesare was pursuing her.

Both of these things made no sense to me. As for the latter - she did this 360° first she wanted to be liberated, then she had such intense qualms. I mean I can understand why the murder would have shocked her and she felt it was her fault, hence the nunnery. I understand that sometimes you think you would welcome things but then feel guilty about it. But the whole part in-between where Cesare pursued her was so... contrived. And I hated that conversation about love. It's just physical - accept it. So in any case, I wouldn't have minded her, had the hair cutting been her last scene in that case she would have acted as a tool that served its purpose and that's that. It was everything after that that just got on my nerves because no - I don't believe that Cesare loved her, I just can't. I think he as a character is uncapable to fall madly in love with a woman. He loves Lucrezia, he cares for his mother and that's it.

And now I'm really mad when I imagine that we were SHAMELESSLY ROBBED of that Columbus/Isabella of Castille scene with the upside down pineapple cake. Not cool!

[Nonie]

It does seems at times like she's using Cesare to get out of her marriage At first I thought that is all she wanted from him, but then she went ahead and become a nun. And all I could think of her character is 'Eh?'

[Nikki K]

Her husband didn't seem very nice. Actually I understand the motivation. Also that for being a nun. And yes throughout all that she seemed pretty bipolar but whatever. It's just this intense obsessive love on Cesare's side that I do not get at all.

[Vanora]

Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post) Both of these things made no sense to me. As for the latter - she did this 360° first she wanted to be liberated, then she had such intense qualms. I mean I can understand why the murder would have shocked her and she felt it was her fault, hence the nunnery. I understand that sometimes you think you would welcome things but then feel guilty about it. But the whole part in-between where Cesare pursued her was so... contrived. And I hated that conversation about love. It's just physical - accept it. So in any case, I wouldn't have minded her, had the hair cutting been her last scene in that case she would have acted as a tool that served its purpose and that's that.

I thought her storyline was getting boring before that to be honest, but they really stretched it after bringing her back as a nun.

Also, since she was clearly a tool storywise, I wonder what they used her for. To show Cesare could love? Or to just have him do something while Lucretia wasn't there?

Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post) And now I'm really mad when I imagine that we were SHAMELESSLY ROBBED of that Columbus/Isabella of Castille scene with the upside down pineapple cake. Not cool!

Hehe, yeah

[Nikki K]

Originally Posted by Vanora (View Post) I thought her storyline was getting boring before that to be honest, but they really stretched it after bringing her back as a nun.

Before - yeah well, there were some scenes I think they could have cut, like them riding out in forest for instance. That was pretty unnecessary. The wedding, the market, the bedroom, the church where she told him he was awful, the hair cutting - those scenes would have surficed, imo.

Also, since she was clearly a tool storywise, I wonder what they used her for. To show Cesare could love? Or to just have him do something while Lucretia wasn't there?

I don't think those were the reasons. I think mainly he saw Lucrezia in Ursula: Married to someone awful, looking to be liberated. Because he couldn't do anything for Lucrezia since it would have been against Rodrigo's wishes with the Sforza as allies and all, I think he basically in his mind killed Sforza when killed Bonadeo. And the whole point was in my opinion to show that he is capable of murder and justify it with partly bogus reasons because well, he might have thought about his mother's honour at first but that was perhaps 20% of why he did it. And to show that he feels no guilt or shame over what he did. Remember from the pilot where he let Micheletto do the killing and he watched, he seemed a bit shocked or nervous at that point. Then he tells him to dispose of Maria and when he looks at the dead girl there it seems like he is oddly fascinated. So basically I think all of that was gradually building up to him killing himself for which they needed a motivation. Plus meeting Ursula at Lucrezia's wedding, her story in some ways paralleling Lucrezia's (at least in his mind) - I felt that was a nod to Cesare reasoning: "I'd rather do all these things with/for my sister but my evil father wouldn't let me so I take this woman, at least she is blonde, and I pretend it's Lucrezia."

[Vanora]

Him killing her husband showed his ruthlessness to her, but I found it far less painful than when they killed nice, trusting Djem. At that point Cesare was very reluctant though, despite the obvious financial gain.

It was definitely more than a coincidence that Cesare started 'loving' someone after his sister had ridden off with her husband. He needed to fill that void and Ursula indeed seemed like he could project Lucretia on her. When I first saw the trailer of the Borgia, I thought he was in bed with Lucretia then and remembered thinking: 'so they blatantly assume they did sleep together'. Only after rewatching I realized it was someone else.

[Nikki K]

True, he hesitated with Djem still. A lot of season 1 was about him getting over that threshold to murder someone without too many guilty feelings, I think. Oh and everybody who insults Vanozza should be toast in my book too.

Only after rewatching I realized it was someone else.

Never watched trailers but I had the same experience with a screencap - and when I clicked on it for the bigger version I was so disappointed.

[Vanora]

If the big oaf was so easily offended by Vannozza, he should never have come to a Borgia-wedding.

I'm rewatching the Borgias now and Cesare also felt compassion with the 'savage' they torn away from the Americas. The Ursula thing worked to show how he became more ruthless, though it would have been far cringing to watch if she had been more compelling and not just as voicing her disapproval all the time.