Fan Forum
Remember Me?
Register

  New Forum Poll   |     Request a Forum   |     View New Forums

Closed Thread   Post New Thread
 
Forum Affiliates Thread Tools
Old 07-30-2018, 03:14 PM
  #31
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,632
Yes, I do agree!
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 07-30-2018, 03:19 PM
  #32
Loyal Fan
 
Mignonette's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,306
Thanks Arinna! Do you have any gifs of Juan?
Mignonette is offline  
Old 07-30-2018, 05:38 PM
  #33
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 177,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post)
We need to post here guys! We can't forget about Juan!
We won't, Lila!

__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 07-31-2018, 03:56 PM
  #34
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,632
Uff, this scene..
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 07-31-2018, 04:12 PM
  #35
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 177,392
What about the scene, Arinna?
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 08-01-2018, 02:50 PM
  #36
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,632
The fallen hero.
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 08-01-2018, 07:00 PM
  #37
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 177,392
Does it depress you?
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 08-02-2018, 02:50 PM
  #38
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,632
Just makes me sad.
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 08-02-2018, 07:58 PM
  #39
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 177,392
I'm sorry. I did feel sorry for Juan at the end. His father and his family just wasn't there for him, and Rodrigo really failed him.
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 08-03-2018, 01:04 AM
  #40
Loyal Fan
 
Mignonette's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,306
Do you think he believed Giovanni was Cesare's baby? He seemed suspicious of Ces & Lu long before the opium, so maybe the opium magnified his suspicions.
Mignonette is offline  
Old 08-03-2018, 02:22 PM
  #41
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,632
I think that's what he thought about Giovanni.
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 08-04-2018, 05:30 PM
  #42
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 177,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mignonette (View Post)
Do you think he believed Giovanni was Cesare's baby? He seemed suspicious of Ces & Lu long before the opium, so maybe the opium magnified his suspicions.
I don't know. I think he suspected that something was going on between Ces and Lu, but if he thought Giovanni was theirs he wouldn't have killed Paolo. I think Lucrezia's reaction to Paolo's death precluded Juan suspecting that Giovanni was Cesare's baby.
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 08-04-2018, 06:14 PM
  #43
Loyal Fan
 
Mignonette's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post)
I think that's what he thought about Giovanni.
Yeah, I think so too, Arinna

Sorry, I know this is long , but I see Ces & Juan's rivalry escalating into violence after Giovanni's birth, as a result of Juan's belief that Ces & Lu were incestous and that it created a threat to the security of the family, as being essential to their plotline in season two.

Notice that Juan's rivalry with Cesare intensified into violence only after Giovanni was born. Season one ended with Giovanni's birth. Season two opened with the brothers at each other's throats. In "Paolo", Juan tried to drown Paolo in the fountain, before he even knew who he was, just because he was a peasant and dared to speak to Lucrezia.

Idk Alex, I think Lucrezia's reaction to Paolo's death only proved she cared for him - it wasn't proof he was her baby's father. The only proof of that was her word saying so. For all Juan knew, her saying Paolo was the father was just a cover up to keep the incest secret. Juan never said Paolo was the father, but he did say he believed Ces & Lu were having "congress" and that their offspring would be bad news.

He killed Paolo for the good of the family, because he was a peasant and Lucrezia's involvement with him could cause scandal ruining her chances of a good marital alliance. He said so to Rodrigo:




If he believed Paolo was Giovanni's father why did he say this? Killing Paolo wouldn't remove the shame of him being Giovanni's father, because Lu had already told everyone he was! His reference to Rodrigo's "perfect family" was sarcasm because he believed Cesare and Lucrezia were incestous and suspected Giovanni was theirs, imo:




He said he'd long believed Ces & Lu were incestuous and their baby could cause his downfall. It would be a huge scandal for the pope's children to be incestous and have a child together. They had so many powerful enemies that would use that to destroy everything the family had worked so hard for.

Juan saw himself as the family's guardian and he desperately wanted Rodrigo's approval, even more than Cesare did. His intense rivalry with Cesare caused him to be more observant and aware of Ces & Lu's interactions.

He saw how Cesare acted like a father to Giovanni from the moment Lu went into labor, when Cesare was pacing outside the room like an expectant father:



He notices Cesare was the first to hold Giovanni and watches as he asks to hold the baby:



Rodrigo is even surprised at Cesare's happiness as he's holding the baby:


Juan and Rodrigo notice how Cesare is reluctant to hand over the baby:


Even after he gives the baby to Rodrigo, he's still acting like Giovanni is his and Juan sees it:

Last edited by Mignonette; 08-04-2018 at 07:42 PM
Mignonette is offline  
Old 08-05-2018, 01:25 PM
  #44
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,632
Well, I think it's safe to say that Juan was right, at least about his suspicions. No one actually knows for sure if that child is not indeed Cesare's. There are lots of documents, implying that Cesare was the one, who took Lu's virginity, because Rodrigo didn't want to be someone outside the family.
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 08-05-2018, 05:00 PM
  #45
Loyal Fan
 
Mignonette's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post)
Well, I think it's safe to say that Juan was right, at least about his suspicions. No one actually knows for sure if that child is not indeed Cesare's. There are lots of documents, implying that Cesare was the one, who took Lu's virginity, because Rodrigo didn't want to be someone outside the family.
Yes, Arinna, you are correct! Mario Puzo's "The Family" is based on actual historical documents implying that Cesare took her virginity and impregnated her with Giovanni when she was still married Ro Sforza. Letters suggest Rodrigo not only knew, but came up with the idea with Cesare.

He certainly knew the siblings were in love and had been since childhood - yes, I know people may be shocked that children fool around, but they do. Letters between the siblings imply that before her June, 1493 wedding to Sforza, Cesare at 17 took her virginity when she was 12 or just barely 13.

Rodrigo wanted her bound to Cesare, as wife to husband, so that she would always be loyal to the family and not to her legal husband's family. Even tho there's no "hard evidence" like an eye witness statement (how would there be?), it can be inferred from their actions and documents.

He and Cesare planned everything regarding Lucrezia. Some say she was a victim and a pawn, but she was always agreeable, even when Cesare had her husband, Alfonso, killed. She publicly railed against his murder, but was observed dancing and laughing with Cesare while still in the mourning period. There's no evidence she knew he was planning the murder, but she was ok with it afterwards, even tho she cared for Alfonso. She loved Cesare so much that she spent time alone with him only 2 or 3 days later in her house adjoining his.

The references to being chained, a bird in a cage, etc, on the show were based on Rodrigo and Cesare's plan to keep her loyal - Cesare taking her virginity and impregnating her - to which she agreed.

I think it's why the show's writers had her hint to Cesare about wanting his child in the series finale rather than bluntly saying it, because IRL, documents only infer she had his baby. If you examine each piece of the puzzle separately, you can find doubt, but taken as a whole, it's clear what happened.

Cesare & Lucrezia wrote to each other frequently all throughout their lives, and she kept every one of his letters, always taking them with her in a hidden compartment in a trunk. Even when he was in prison, Cesare bribed his jailers in Spain so that he and Lucrezia could write each other.

They wrote love letters, and after she married Sforza, they started using coded language based on the secret form of Catalan they created to use with only each other as children. They even used references to being husband and wife - like Abelard and Heloise did

Alex & I have discussed how after they became lovers on the show, they started speaking in coded language using insinuations, innuendos, and metaphors. NJ used historical facts all throughout the series and this coded language was based on their real life letters.

On the show, Cesare carrying her off to bed on her wedding night to Sforza was about him taking her virginity before her husband could, because he actually did take it IRL!.

There're no documents showing that Rodrigo watched them, but he definitely knew. Lucrezia loved Cesare and was more than willing. Her letters to both Cesare and Rodrigo when she was at Pesaro were full of longing to be with them in Rome and complaints about Sforza.

This was why Cesare got the house for her that adjoined his apartment in Rome near the Vatican. Only 4 months after Lucrezia and Sforza moved into that house, he fled in fear for his life from the jealous and possessive Cesare.

Lucrezia went to the convent in September, 1497 and baby Giovanni was born in March, 1498. Her marriage was annulled in December, 1497 and lots of people said she had gained weight and wore maternity clothes at the hearing in December when she testified that Sforza was impotent.

Last edited by Mignonette; 08-05-2018 at 06:19 PM
Mignonette is offline  
Closed Thread   Post New Thread

Bookmarks


Forum Affiliates
Lotte Verbeek, Holliday Grainger Source
Thread Tools



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:16 AM.

Fan Forum  |  Contact Us  |  Fan Forum on Twitter  |  Fan Forum on Facebook  |  Archive  |  Top

Powered by vBulletin, Copyright © 2000-2018.

Copyright © 1998-2018, Fan Forum.


TEST