PhoenixRising

No, I don't. I checked. Unless you can find a link for me.

I got your PM!

So which Elizabeth Woodville did you like, TWQ version or TWP? It seemed to me that TWP cast an actress who would appear more reminiscent of Jacquetta.

Nikki K

Ach... again.

Nikki K

I'll look into the link situation tomorrow.

I like both Rebecca and Essie. In fact, I thought that both Essie and Michelle must have watched TWQ because in the first few episodes I found that their ways of speaking and their gestures etc. very much resembled Rebecca and Amanda on TWQ. But yes, to be fair it did make sense that they cast older women for the roles – I mean TWQ spans decades and the characters barely age. And you are right that appearance-wise they made Essie look a lot like Janet's Jacquetta.

In any event, I think at one point you, Arinna and Barbara might want to give "Victoria" a try here. You'll see David in a totally different role. Not a villain at all.

PhoenixRising

Okay, thanks, Nina. It would be nice to see David as something other than a sleazeball for a chance.

I think TWQ did their best to age the actors so they appeared to grow older. But Amada just got some grey hairs and that's it. She seemed unchanged for the most part. And of course, it's a bit shocking to see how different the actors in TWP are from TWQ given that one begins practically the week after the other ends. And yes, I think you mentioned that about Essie and Michelle copying Rebecca and Amanda. But Amanda still emotes a lot more as Margaret.

Nikki K

Oh yeah, I think that they also gave Amanda more to work with. Rebecca too for that matter. I mean Michelle and Essie tried their best with what they were given but basically Michelle was mainly set up to play the villian and Essie to play the vindictive witch. TWQ was a bit more nuanced, especially when it came to these two female characters I thought. Nevertheless I thought they all did a great job.

I still think David did his best to distinguish George from Juan. I mean Juan had some happy go lucky moments in the first season, also Juan always knew that he was his father's favourite – he just realised that that wasn't enough which is why is aside from his STDs that probably affected his brains (or that's how he played it at least), lead to him being unhappy. But he seemed to have had a good time on his trip to Spain, acquiring a wife, getting her pregnant, returning with all the presents to Rome... meanwhile I think George always felt cheated by the birth order. His mother loved him best but what was that worth with Edward on the throne and Warwick not able to make good on his promise to make him king. And then Richard overtook him in terms of lands and titles...

BL.Arinna_1982

Maybe in his next project, Alex?

Nikki K

We were discussing this, Arinna. He played a totally different character as Prince Albert's older brother and Queen Victoria's brother-in-law on "Victoria", the recent itv series with Jenna Coleman. I think when you're done with TWP, you could perhaps make that one of your watch projects.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Nina!

Yes, I agree. TWP definitely did set up Lizzie and Henry as the main protagonists and diminished Elizabeth and Margaret to more easily defined roles... although Elizabeth was still there to work plenty of magic, because where would the English monarchy be without it? But Elizabeth was pretty much shown to be a woman who had lost nearly everything - husband and son dead, another son sent into exile, her nephew locked in the tower, her throne lost - and now she was possibly losing her daughter, Lizzie, as well. So naturally she had nothing left but vengeance. Margaret was more or less a villain here, definitely missing the depth she had in TWQ. I almost changed my mind about her when I saw how much pain she went through in deciding that Princes Edward and Richard(whom she helped to deliver) had to die.

Oh, I agree that David did distinguish George from Juan. But there were a few moments, like his rant at the masked ball, that I saw the old Juan come out. Remember, David had just finished his stint on The Borgias when he joined the cast of TWQ. But yes, the circumstances here were much different, and George Plantagenet was a far darker character than the happy-go-lucky Juan Borgia, who only fell into disgrace due to his own jealousy, insecurity, and a case of syphilis.

Oh, and I do think that Elizabeth's curse - the one that befalls all who were responsible for the deaths of the Princes in the tower - did pass down to Lizzie after the events of TWP. I peeked ahead at some YouTube vids and.... well, let's say neither Margaret Beaufort nor Elizabeth of York come off well. TWP basically exonerates Richard III for the deaths of the Princes in the Tower and Henry VII for Teddy Plantagenet's execution, and lays blame directly on Lizzie and Margaret. TWQ kept the death of Prince Edward and the imposter Prince Richard ambiguous at first, but it became clear after Queen Anne Neville asked Sir Robert Brackenbury if he did kill the Princes upon her suggestion, to which he replied that he didn't, that it was in fact, Henry Stafford of Buckingham that killed the boys on the orders of Margaret Beaufort.


But there's reason to believe that Elizabeth Woodville's curse did fall on Lizzie as well:

#1. Her firstborn son, Arthur Tudor, died young before ever becoming king. Since I'm assuming the curse primarily affects first born(very Biblical) and since Lizzie was only responsible for the death of one of the Princes, that's probably why only one of her sons died. It may have also been why Richard III's son died, along with Anne Neville. They may not have killed the Princes in the Tower(on the show, at lest), but putting them in that damn tower is what led to their deaths in the first place.

#2. Her other son lived and became King Henry VIII, but he went down in history as a monster and a murderer of his wives. And Henry's children turned out to be the end of the Tudor dynasty.

#3. Henry VIII was succeeded by his son, Edward VI, who ended up dying at age 15 shortly after becoming king.

#4. Edward VI was succeeded by Jane Grey, who challenged Edward's sisters, Mary and Elizabeth, for the throne. Jane was later imprisoned, convicted for treason, and executed.

#5. Henry VIII's daughter, Mary I, became Queen of England and was known for her restoration of the Catholic Church in England, but her reputation for executing over 280 protestants gave her the name, "Bloody Mary," and she died without an heir.

#6. Henry VIII's other daughter, Elizabeth I, became Queen after Mary I and brought about England's Golden Age, but it also came with questions of her legitimacy, attempts to dethrone her, and Mary Stuart's execution. Elizabeth ruled England alone and died childless, ending the Tudor line, and James Stuart(son of Mary Stuart, in her final revenge) succeeded Elizabeth I as King James I.

So I guess Elizabeth Woodville's curse was rather creative.

BL.Arinna_1982

That's a great article here.

Nikki K

Within the scope of Philippa Gregory's fictional retelling you are right, she points to Margaret Beautfort and Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham as the culprits. And I think you did a good job, Alex, re-tracing what Gregory must have thought up as "evidence" for her "curse".

It's a creative idea but obviously it's purely fictional and as such there's a problem with it insofar as it doesn't take Buckingham's line into account. I mean he wasn't just Margaret's tool, there was something in it for him as well as he had a claim to the throne himself and Margaret promised him that he'd come straight after Henry in the line of succession.

So Buckingham effectively killed the boys – which again if we are fair was not all thought up by Margaret but was something that was quite self-evident to her husband, Buckingham and to herself (and something that was contemplated by other parties as well). Yet there are no repercussions of the curse where Buckingham's line was concerned. While he was executed himself, his four children with Kate Woodville all had issue and his line went on. One would think that at least a bit of the blame should fall on him and his children.

So yes, creative idea but it comes with plot holes and if you go with Occam's Razor then even with the curse involved Richard would make the most sense because his line died out even before his own death. But that's always the problem with involved theories around conspiracies.

Nikki K

Because yay pictures and fanart... I present unto thee, George and Isabel Plantagent, Duke and Duchess of Clarence aka David Oakes and Eleanor Tomlinson on "The White Queen"...







Source: davidoakes.tumblr.com




Source: carolinequeen.tumblr.com

Nikki K

Sorry, found this ... isn't it too adorable – David meets Rebecca Benson who plays George, Duke of Clarence's daughter Maggie on "The White Princess":

Lucresiare

OMG this is cute !
I would like to see David in TWP too

Nikki K

Aren't they adorable? In TWQ, Maggie was only a baby – and then both her parents died... but yeah, David always is so lovely posting pictures with co-stars etc. and supporting them.

Here are David and Eleanor with "baby Maggie" on TWQ:


Source: davidoakes.tumblr.com

BL.Arinna_1982

Nice pic!