Mignonette

Hi Gwen! Hi Alex! Thanks for answering my question! Cut and paste is easy

Omg Arinna, I love that gif! The coloring shows the solemnity they were feeling! Holding onto his cape like a security blanket. Not wanting him to leave her.

It seems like the writers (or someone) had an agenda, didn't it? Why were other couples given so many sex scenes, but CL only 1 lasting about a minute? I'd skip the ones of Ces being with other women, but I cannot because François is NAKED I'd watch a naked François have sex with anyone or anything, even Alf's furry behind

Yeah I have zero doubt what Ces was planning when he carried Lu to bed. He just didn't know how to propose it and that's why he stayed for hours on the bed with her as she slept. Why couldn't the writers make things clearer with these scenes? Especially this one, which was HUGE in understanding the obsessive love/lust Ces had for Lu! The creepy music and other clues left audiences confused. People weren't ready to think INCEST much less a brother taking his little sister's virginity.

I've read Puzo's book. Rodrigo watching his kids have sex was just pervy. He wanted his kids to **** to ensure loyalty, not because they loved each other. I really hope the real Rodrigo wasn't like that.

Ces and Lu would have made Sforza believe he'd deflowered her. This simple deception requires only a tiny amount of blood. After that violent rape, there was probably blood anyway

Yes Gwen! Juan blackmailing CL would've been in character for him. I wish he'd stayed longer too. He was so funny!

You're right, Paolo was a good guy and selfless in his love for Lu. But he could never compare with Ces! Wasn't it heartbreaking when Ces was watching Paolo with Lu and the baby from the opposite balcony at Vanozza's house that night? He was wishing he was in Paolo's place.

BL.Arinna_1982

This is why I like to post gifs here.

Mignonette

Hi Arinna! Your gifs are always so beautiful and well made. They're a big reason I enjoy this forum so much, please keep posting them!

BL.Arinna_1982

No problem!

PhoenixRising

I know you do, and we love your gifs, Arinna!

You're welcome, Lila! It's actually copy and pate, but that's okay. I'm glad it's easy for you. I usually ignore a lot of the more complicated stuff anyway. And I'm sorry for not posting sooner. I fell behind a little. My five day vacation ends today and I have to go back to work tomorrow. I have more vacation time later on this summer that I'm gonna take.

Well, maybe the writers were a bit skittish with Cesare and Lucrezia because they were siblings and they weren't sure how incest would go over with fans, although it's clear that Showtime didn't think fans would mind from the way they advertised the Siblings episode. But I do wish they'd have given us at least one more sex scene with the two of them. You're right, all the other couples got a lot more by comparison. And don't remind me of Alfonso's fur.

I wonder if anyone associated with the show was trying to imply incest with that scene in season 1, because I know that NJ wasn't on board with that in the beginning. Was Jordan schizophrenic or something? He didn't seem to know what he was writing when it was obvious to everyone else. How could Francois and Holly do those scenes and not feel the incestuous subtext? You think Cesare was probably thinking of taking his sister's virginity?

Well, the part where Rodrigo watches them was the one part I'd cut out, Lila. Yeah, I know the reason Rodrigo did that in the book, but I still feel that Cesare and Lucrezia didn't object to it because they loved each other already. And no, the real Rodrigo wasn't like that from what I've read.

Ouch, I guess you're right about the blood thing. And Sforza in the history already suspected Cesare and Lucrezia and was the first to publicly accuse them of incest, so I guess it wouldn't matter anyway. I was actually surprised that the show didn't have Sforza accuse Cesare and Lucrezia when Rodrigo had Lucrezia's marriage annulled?

Mignonette

Hi Alex! Lol english isn't my native language & I meant copy not cut It was nice of you to respond while on vacation I hope you're able to go somewhere great this summer when you have more time off

NJ must've been schizophrenic to write the way he did. How did he not know the siblings were in love and being sexual with each other? His dirty mind (thank god) wrote those scenes.

I'm with you Alex, I won't forgive them for only 1 sex scene It was like: let's tease the audience with lascivious promos, but you know it's incest, so let's keep it short and sweet, not too much naughty naked stuff. If people didn't want to see siblings *******, they saw the promos so could decide not to watch it. Why punish those of us who cheered their love and wanted to see them have lots of hot incest sex?

Yes, I'm sure Cesare wanted her virginity. He was definitely aware of his lust and had sexual fantasies about her. But he had a HUGE amount of guilt. He had the STAIN of forbidden lust and despised himself for it. He was a loving brother, but he was also a man in love. He's horny. He's a normal young guy. He wanted to **** the woman he loved more than anything on earth. This is the hell he lived for YEARS.

He would never have acted on his lust if she hadn't been forced to marry so young and to such a horrid creature. This was his delimma the night of her wedding. He knew what Sforza would do to her. That's why he warned him off telling him to let her rest. He had only 2 options: let Sforza do whatever and hope for the best or take her virginity himself. If he deflowered her that night, he could prepare her body and her mind for what would happen later with Sforza. He wasn't just jealous of him; he also knew he wasn't a nice guy who couldn't care less about Lu. If she had woke when he kissed her cheek, he would have found a way to purpose it to her. Did you see his disppointment when she turned her face to him and he realized she was still asleep?

The writers played the scene with so much ambiguity that it left a lot of confusion. They really wanted us to figure it out. Then we couldn't blame them for such dark thoughts? Idk.

Crystal Clear

That part that really gets me is the change in how they emotionally respond to each other after having sex -- in 3x04, when Lucrezia starts hitting him out of devastation that he would allow her to sleep openly with Alfonso and Cesare just stands there, trying to restrain himself from breaking down -




Hi Lila Yes, and it was very revealing how Cesare physically restrained Juan from going to Lu's room that night. He didn't want to wreck her happiness.

Mignonette

Hi Gwen! Omg 3x04 always makes me cry when Cesare starts crying. He's always so stoic, but Lu's hurt and anger shattered him

Allowing her to be with Paolo was so painful for him too. When she says Paolo has a right to see his child and she loved him, Cesare is hanging his head before he says she should see him. He stands and has to steel himself taking a huge breath and slowly blowing it out. He was crushed when she said she loved Paolo

Did anyone else think it was VERY revealing of his obsessive love and jealousy that he was waiting for her with the baby in her bedroom? He's a teenage boy and he's sent the baby nurse away and is waiting in the dark for his sister to return? The first thing he asks her is "do you have a lover sis?" It's his first and only thought. His been watching her cause he knows she's gone out hooded.

This is the innocent behavior of a brother? And she's ok with it! Doesn't question why he's waiting in her bedroom or why he's been watching her. Because SHE KNOWS WHY. The kiss she gives him says it all: I know what this is costing you and I love you even more for it, and above all others I AM YOURS

Guila Farnese told Lu a kiss on the lips was a promise of pleasure to come. That's what Lu's kiss told him. It was their first kiss on the lips and it was initiated by her as always. While they were lying in her bed. It wasn't just an innocent thank you kiss. It told him she loved him as a woman loves a man, and that she knew he felt the same.

But NJ had no clue what he had written? Teenage siblings in her bed so many times fondling and kissing? To quote Ces and Machiavelli about Milan and Ces's wardrobe: M "But I never said that" C "No, you said black"

PhoenixRising

Hi, Gwen! Thanks for that awesome gif! Arinna loves that scene. Arinna's in Serbia with her dance company today, but she'll be back tomorrow.

Yes, I noticed that after Cesare and Lucrezia had sex, they stopped acting like a brother and sister and started acting like a couple.

Hi, Lila! That's okay. I made a typo anyway when I typed "pate" and not "paste." And I'm used to talking to people for whom English isn't their first language. Arinna is from Bulgaria, so it's not her first language either. Thanks. I only had five days off and I'm back at work now. I'll probably take more time off later this summer.

Thanks for being with me on this stuff, Lila. I agree about NJ's schizophrenia thing. And if Game of Thrones can push the incest line then why not The Borgias? I think that NJ was just being pretentious about it. Yeah, why deny those of us who were making The Borgias popular by tuning in to see Cesare and Lucrezia's chemistry? And I do find it a bit ironic that Cesare didn't feel too guilty about anything else he may have done, but when it comes to sex with his sister, well, that was crossing the line. Apparently murder and bribery are no problem.

Yeah, I think I did notice that when Cesare realized Lucrezia was asleep. But she was also really tired so I don't think he was expecting that much anyway. He had to wait a bit longer before she'd become more sexually aggressive. But I could definitely tell that Cesare was uneasy about leaving her alone with Giovanni Sforza, and he was right to be that way. I'm glad Ces took revenge on that guy for Lucrezia later on.

Mignonette

Hi Alex! You're right, Ces can murder etc without guilt cause he doesn't love those people. He's a sociopath, so he's able to switch off any empathy he might feel. When Micheletto kills the girl as Ces ordered in s1e2: "poor girl" Ces says with a smirk and zero empathy or guilt. But with people he loves, he feels empathy and is unable to switch it off. So he feels guilt/shame when he thinks he's hurt them. The only guilt he felt over Juan's death was for the pain it caused his father. But he loved Lu above all, so he was willing to hurt anyone for her. "Whoever gets in the way of your happiness will meet my wrath" - he wasn't kidding.

He's lusted after Lu since she was a child (in his mind) and he knows that he has a deep darkness at his core. At 18, he already KNOWS he's a very bad guy. In the very first episode we witness his psychopathy. He agrees with Micheletto that they are both WITHOUT PITY and he doesn't flinch when M tells him that he's killed infants.

Like most sociopaths, Ces is charming, charismatic, highly intelligent, physically attractive, very likable, and PITILESS. All those positive qualities blind people to his dark motivations behind those beautiful eyes. That's why it's so hard to believe he's purposely doing things like letting his young sister watch him having sex or wanting to take her virginity. ,He rationalizes that as long as he doesn't cross a certain line, then she's still safe from his darkness. He goes as far as he can without crossing that line, because his lust is too strong to be fully contained.

He PROVOKES Lu into always being the one to cross the line so he doesn't have to feel as guilty. This is why she always LOOKS like the initiator, but it's really him quietly pulling the strings. He provoked her in the armory by asking "do you mean me for him?" She reacted by stroking his armor and reassuring him "that too". A full kiss would've crossed his line, so he sort of kissed her - pushing right up to but not crossing the line in his mind.

But this time, his provocation pushed her further than he'd seen coming. Foreshadowed in the armory scene when he said "ah, I could've seen that coming" (Giovanni not being welcome in Naples). He always tries to stay a step ahead. But he provoked the sleeping giant of lust for him in Lu with that kinda kiss! She went full Monty and blew his resolve out of the water.

After they have sex, he never puts any blame on her. Why? Because he knows he provoked all of it. To cope with the guilt, he tries to go backwards - reverse, rewind, do over! It's impossible, but it takes him a while to realize that.

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

That's one of my favorite Ces/Lu scenes from season 1, Arinna!

Wow, you think Ces is a sociopath? I never really went that far, I just thought he was like Michael Corleone in The Godfather, everything he did was for the good of the family, and later for himself and his sister. And I think that Ces had sympathy for Ursula after King Charles' men killed her when the sacked the nunnery, so yeah, when it comes to people he cares about he has great empathy, but he can switch it off when it comes to other people. But to Ces' credit, he did tell his men at the siege of Forli not to attack any civilians and that he didn't want a massacre, obviously remembering what King Charles' army did in season one. I couldn't believe it when Mich said he killed infants, though. I could never imagine doing that.

Yeah, Cesare does provoke Lu, and he always flirts with crossing the line with her only to pull back at the last moment, but I don't think he ever imagined that Lu would get tired of that and take matters into her own hands, seducing him instead. You can only tease that girl for so long before she attacks.

Mignonette

Hi Arinna! Thanks for that gif. I love the way he puts his finger on her chin to turn her head toward him. So gentle & loving Isn't it interesting how many intimate inappropriate moments the sibs have while sitting in church?

Hi Alex! Omg Michael Corleone was a sociopath too! The "good of the family" is their rationale for justifying their horrible actions! A murder may indeed benefit the family, but they kill because someone got in the way of their getting what they want. And Ces wanted 2 things: power and his sister's happiness. Get in his way of either of those and you're gonna meet his murdery wrath

That good of the family justification was a theme throughout TB, wasn't it? Lu went berserk slapping the **** out of Ces when he said it to her She knew it was about his & their father's pursuit of power. She understood why, but it hurt her so bad - as a woman - to think the man she loved didn't put her feelings first. He'd always put her first: killing Sfoza, killing Juan, telling her his plans for power "could crumble to dust", so after they became lovers, she expected even more. Like we've been discussing of how their expectations changed once they became lovers.

I think she realized later in Naples thru her own power struggles, that at the time of the consummation spectacle, Ces simply didn't have the resources yet to stand up to the king. It would have put them in danger. He learned that lesson after killing Sforza and starting a war with the north. He was in love and wanted her happiness, so he tended to make promises he couldn't keep, but he really did try and always made them in sincerity

But yeah, Ces is a brilliant sociopath. Not a psychopath - they are in the serial killer leagues! Ces has a conscience, it's just that he can switch it off. François makes him so charismatic and loving with Lu that it's hard to see him as a sociopath, isn't it? He's said in interviews that he put a lot of his own personality into the role of Ces. He's said he also has a darkness within himself and that it allowed him to identify with Ces's. He's also said he knows Ces is an "awful man" but he likes him anyway and doesn't judge him.

If you've read much about the real Cesare, you'll know he was described as "having a great talent, an excellent nature, the manners of a son of a great prince, graceful, joyous, light-hearted, modest, tall, and very handsome". Sounds like our perfectly perfect François, no?

BL.Arinna_1982

Yes, and I have to agree that I can only imagine Cesare as Francois.

Mignonette

Agree 100% Arinna, François IS Cesare! I've always been fascinated by Cesare Borgia and have read and watched everything I can find about him.

I saw Borgia recently and Mark Ryder just wasn't Cesare. No offense to Mark, but I don't find him attractive, much less handsome. François isn't just handsome, he's beautiful. One of the most beautiful and sexiest men I've ever seen. Cesare Borgia was considered to be the handsomest and most charming man in all of Italy. He was famous for his looks and charisma long before he became notorious. When I think of him, it's always François' face I see