Mignonette

Hi Gwen & Arinna!

Yes wtf with only one sex scene lasting all of one minute?? Catarina, Paolo, and icky Ursula had lots more. Am I the only one who is repulsed by those 3? Catarina is so masculine and the opposite of sexy - sorry I don't know what the english word is for that. Ces is so masculine and Lu so feminine, so I don't know how he was attracted to Catarina. I know it is the power and dominance thing for him, but still

And Paolo with his groovy haircut? When he was riding that mule I laughed so hard! He had a nice body, but no sex appeal. At least his butt wasn't furry

Ursula irritated the hell out of me with her self righteousness and hypocrisy. Telling Ces to free her from her abusive husband and then condemning him when he did. Ces killed him in a freaking duel, which HE instigated at the wedding, you stupid mare. It was not murder. She conveniently forgot she was an adulteress while calling him a murderer who took advantage of her for sex. Even at the convent, she continued to tease him and then reject him. When she was telling him how she'd give in if he touched her and then rang the bell for help when he tried to, I wanted to slap the **** out of her.

Alf was irritating! He was so childlike. I know he was young, supposed to be 17, but Ces was only like 4 years older and he was a MAN in every way I'm not going to give him a pass for being young - grow the **** up and man up Alf, you're married and a prince so stop acting like a big baby!

And provoking Ces after he beat his a$$ in that sword sparring scene was suicidal. Ces was so menacing after he knocked the sword from his hand. How he walked slowly to him with his blade pointed at Alf's throat and a murderous glare. He also beat his a$$ in front of his wife at the palace that night when Alf drew his sword on him while drunk. I loved that he just lost it and drew the sword after saying "we all know I'm useless here"! What he must have thought coming in and seeing C/L walking out together through that closed door

Did you notice how Ces looked like a lion while he was holding Lu right before Alf came home? A lion with his lioness, Alf, DO NOT PROVOKE!

Maybe C/L only got the one sex scene cause NJ wasn't happy with them being lovers? He was against that from the beginning. Were they afraid of offending a puritanical audience? Incestual relationship to titilate, by let's not be too explicit? François said it best: showing murder and gore ok, sexually explicit incest not ok. It's Showtime for god's sake, were they so worried about offending viewers with showing siblings having sex?

Damn so many unanswered questions from that sex scene: did Lu stay with him all night? Did they declare their love for each? Lu told Alf to "**** me" and when he threw a tantrum and didn't, Ces did. But Ces made love to her, he didn't just **** her. A lightening bolt hit her (phallic I know, I couldn't resist lol) and she fell even more deeply in love.

NJ wanted to demolish C/L's relationship and said once they crossed that line, they were doomed. So puritanical: incest must be punished and never allowed to have a happy ending. Sorry NJ, but lots of incestual siblings find a way to continue loving each other, even having babies together - god forbid!

Incest doesn't offend me if it's consensual. Like you said Gwen re Alf and Juan's murder, it's none of my damned business! I'm not the morality police. But maybe NJ was?

PhoenixRising

I know, I said the same thing, Gwen. I wanted the scene where Cesare grabs Lucrezia's neck and kisses it to be a "morning after sex" scene.


Hi, Lila! Thanks. I try to keep up with all of my boards, but it's not easy.

OMG, Gian Paolo Baglioni, the great swordsman, had sex with his sister as well? Well then, the idea of Cesare and Lucrezia doesn't seem to far fetched. Wow, that's interesting stuff about the Borgias servants being told to keep quiet and the thing with the siblings sleeping with the doors open to avoid scandal. They really did that? I haven't heard that one before. And I guess that sheds some light on the seduction scene in Lucrezia's bedroom.

Cesare always looked like a lion with that hair.

Yep, we've discussed how Lucrezia was in a convent during the time she was pregnant with her son, Giovanni. We've also discussed how it was also rumored that the child was Rodrigo's, which disgusted me. The history is a bit sketchy about it, but I guess we'll never know if the child was Cesare and Lucrezia's, or Lucrezia's by Perotto, or Rodrigo's by another mistress. I'd like to believe it was Cesare and Lucrezia's.

NJ was just being petulant in my opinion.

Mignonette

Hi Alex! I'm so happy you found some time to post. I always enjoy reading your comments.

Yes Gian Paolo Baglioni loved his sister, and loved her well judging by how much time they spent in bed together. He was all kinds of good with a blade But his family was nobility and the Borgias were commoners, so the rules were different.

Oh sorry I wasn't clear about the siblings leaving the doors open: I meant when Ces would come into Lu's room and lie with her in bed just talking, not at night while sleeping. When Lu sneaked into his room on her wedding night, his door was closed and he was asleep. So I think it was just when they were alone together talking in each other's rooms that they left the door open to avoid "any sign of impropriety".

The only time I ever saw them in each other's bedroom alone together with the doors closed was when they knew they were going to be naughty. Lu removed her shoes and closed the door softly when she sneaked into Ces's room and again when she woke him by running her hands all over him. When her hand hesitated like she was going to reach under his blanket and touch his ****, I thought for sure she'd have her way with him. But NO! And dammit why did she give up so easily?

She could've had him if she'd tried a bit harder, because when she told him she had everything she wanted, he was very clear when he asked "everything?" putting her finger in his mouth, that he was saying "oh really? Does he turn you on like I do? Does he **** you like I do?" He was practically sucking her finger when he bit it and talked with it in his mouth. He was so jealous when she said "I have my husband", that he just had to remind her that unless he was her lover, she certainly did NOT have everything she wanted!! He was moving his pelvis when she was walking to the door, so he was aroused and had a If she'd only stayed a bit longer, I really believe he would've given her and us another sex scene

Like you, Alex, I thought for sure that was a morning after sex scene, and was so disappointed it wasn't! Wasn't it just heartbreaking when she leaves his bed and he's watching her walk away with so much longing? She's kind of hanging her head, and you can feel her disppointment. Then she turns and sees him watching her. So she stops and turns facing him, giving him the same longing look, hoping that he'll call her back to his bed. But he looks away from her and just stares at the ceiling. She's so forlorn as she turns back and walks to the door. So much sighing in that scene, theirs and ours!

LindaL100

hi guys I'm back! I'm so sorry for not posting here for a while, I just wanted to pop in and let you guys know that I'm still here and reading all the comments, I'm glad to see this thread so lively and active and more love for Cesare & Lu!

BL.Arinna_1982

Lindaaaaaaaaa! I've missed you!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! We've missed you! Welcome back!

I'm glad you're still reading our comments. I hope you'll have time to post more later.

Hi, Lila! Thanks. I try.

So that stuff about Gian Paolo Baglioni and his sister was in the actual history? Oh yeah, you have a point about the nobles vs. commoners thing. Well, the Borgias did come from some wealth back in Spain, but they were outsiders among Roman nobility.

No, you were clear about the siblings leaving the doors open, Lila. I had just never heard that story before and it's fascinating. But that does make sense that they would leave the doors open to avoid any suspicion.

OMG, yeah, the last time Lucrezia sneaked into Cesare's room she had sex with him, so why didn't she do it the second time? It's not like Alfonso wasn't there in the house the first time on her wedding night, so why not now? They couldn't have made love just once more that season after she came home?

Wow! You really paid attention to the body language between them, didn't you? The fingers in the mouth and the pelvic movements and everything. Yeah, why didn't Lu stay longer? I'm sure Cesare was turned on enough that he'd want them to have sex a second time, but she ended up leaving. I don't think there was any danger of Alfonso catching them. He was probably passed out drunk, as usual. Do you really think she was waiting for Cesare to call her back to the bed?

Mignonette

Hi Alex & Arinna! Hi Linda, I'm Lila, I hope you're able to find some time to post! Discovering the series only this year, I'm very curious about everyone's thoughts, especially re CL.

Yeah, Alex, Gian Paolo's incest with his sister is on record. Sarah Bradford even referenced it in her biography of Lu. Like you said, the Borgias were wealthy Catalans but were outsiders, not of noble birth, and were openly despised by the Italian elites.

Lol, yes, I pay a lot of attention to body language - not just the dirty kind! Also nuanced speech, etc. Character study and behavioral analysis is my thing (doctoral student clinical psych) I started watching this series in March to gain a different perspective while writing a paper on Machieavelli's The Prince. Watching the very first CL scene, I was fascinated by them, and by the end of the episode, I was hooked. The acting, wow! The writing, mostly wow! The paper's finished, but I'm still analyzing and discussing CL! Oh god I need rehab, help!

Ok, so now I'm going to give my impressions on the scene where Ces carries Lu to bed after her wedding to Sforza. Ready? It's not pretty, but keep in mind that Ces is a BORGIA and he does have a black heart surrounding his human one! Maybe I'm diabolical like him for interpreting the scene this way, but here goes:

When Ces carried Lu like a husband to the bed, he was actually BEING her husband. And he did it on purpose. He wanted Sforza to see that HE was her real husband, regardless of the marriage ceremony he'd performed earlier. AND he wanted to give his father the shaft for forcing him to officiate. Lu sat between Sforza and Rodrigo, so when Ces picked her up and carried her off to bed, he knew they both saw it. Who carries a girl/a woman to bed that way?? Her father/her husband. Remember when Rodrigo told Ces that Lu must marry and, as cardinal, he could perform the ceremony? He muttered "am I cardinal already?", cause he was being forced to "spill his blood" - his emotional blood.

When he violently ripped off his cardinal's vestments, it wasn't only because he'd lost Lu, it was because he couldn't stand to have them on his body for 1 more second! He went to get Vanozza not only to make Lu happy and defy his father, but also to publicly punish him for forcing him to perform the ceremony. Bad enough Rod was making his little sis marry and him become a cardinal, but he made Ces be the one to marry her off to another man!

Now for the (maybe) shocking part of the analysis: when Ces carried Lu to the marital bed, he was planning on taking her virginity, if that's what she wanted. The spooky music was a clue. The very long time he spent away from the celebration downstairs was another clue (an hour or more, because the party was ending when he returned). He laid Lu on the bed and watched her sleep, debating whether to wake her. He's a man, only 18, but he's sexually experienced and knows how men think about sex and women. He knew Sforza didn't love her, so god knew what he would inflict on her (turns out, Ces should've woken her!). When he kissed her cheek and she heaved a huge sigh that made her bosom rise while turning her face up to his, he leaned in closer to kiss her lips. Then he realized she was still asleep & his sigh could be heard for miles!

He was beyond furious that night, and Ursula & her awful husband only added fire to his fury. His father had emasculated him, Ursula's husband had tried with his boorishness, and Ces needed to feel powerful as a man - a man in love protecting Lu and trying to make her happy. Even from just watching her sleep and touching her hand, her sweetness calmed him. His fury was under control again and he'd made his decision, so he returned to the party and calmly confronted Sforza.

Ces loved Lu with every fiber of his being - he would die for her! So in his mind, he knew it would be better for him to be her first lover than lord farquaard, even as her brother, because he would be gentle and tender. He went back and forth while he watched her sleep "do I wake her and propose this? what do I say to her? or do I cross my fingers and hope for the best with Sforza?" What a delimma for him, imagine it from his view! Sure, he'd enjoy it - she's his every desire! He does have darkness in his heart, or it wouldn't even be in his mind. But as on the night they made love in season 3 where his focus was on her pleasure while his was secondary, in this delimma he primarily was thinking of her. She was a very young girl, vulnerable, emotional, idealistic - Ces knew she was going to suffer. He couldn't stop her marriage, but he could do this and make her first time a happy loving one.

When Ces finally returned, had the wine with Sforza, and made that little speech to him about letting her rest, I thought for sure he'd had sex with her. He seemed to want Sforza to get that impression too. We only find out he decided against it when Sforza saw blood on the linens in his bed. When Ces and Lu were dancing and she told him maybe she could teach Sforza words like love and tendress, she was so sad looking at Ces when she added "perhaps I can make do with kindness", cause she knew she would never have what she had with Ces.

It was rumored IRL that Ces was Lu's first lover, supposedly in very early adolescence. Who knows? It was reported by lots of people that he was enthralled with her from the moment she was born. As children they played and bathed together, and Ces was always really protective of her.

Alex, yes to your question of whether Lu checked to see if Ces would call her back to his bed. Halfway to the door she looks over her shoulder at him, sees him watching her, so she stops and turns facing him. He immediately looks away and stares at the ceiling. You can see her sigh as she turns back to the door. I wonder if Ces got annoyed when she told him "come visit soon"? He'd been sexual with her up til then: kissing her neck & the finger suck/bite. He was irritated when she said "I have my husband" then the everything she wanted comment, so when she stopped her caressing and said come visit soon, maybe he thought "Really? As in Naples, where you live with your husband, the one that you love as you keep telling me, the husband who's part of the everything you wanted that you now have? You're here in my bed saying that ****?" I mean she goes to Ces's bed wanting him, he's receptive, and then wtf Lu? And lol Alex, Alf was probably passed out, with a liquor pacifier in his mouth. Ces needed her to be more assertive (and stfu! about ANY reference to Alf!) - that's always been their pattern and the only way he's ever been able to overcome his guilt-ridden resistance!

Crystal Clear

That scene was a total tease, Alex They were trying to show that Cesare was being the stronger willed of the two of them, but really, it's wasted potential for sexy screen-time, especially knowing the show was cancelled around that time



Paolo was the only love interest I found bearable of C/L's lovers because of the circumstances around it - he was her knight in shining armor when she was in an abusive arranged marriage. C/L were clearly meant to be together and everyone else was either an arranged partner or a distraction from their incestuous feelings.


Ursula was basically a tease, Catarina was a nasty piece of work who was just using Cesare to infiltrate the Borgia family, and Alfonso and Charlotte were both facades for Lucrezia and Cesare to pretend they could settle for low-key commitment when they actually wanted the passion only they could share with each other.


I wanted Juan to be kept in the show longer and for him to perhaps start blackmailing the two of them to support him otherwise he'd reveal their love affair That would have been more interesting than most of what we got in Season 3.

BL.Arinna_1982

Crystal Clear

^ Such natural screen chemistry I love that their nose-rubs felt sweet and sexy all in one

PhoenixRising

Hi, Gwen! Yeah, that was way too much teasing. I keep thinking that if the show had aired today they'd have gone a lot further with the incest. It's all over TV these days.

Hi, Lila! Thanks for the info on Gian Paolo Baglioni and his sister. That puts a lot of things into perspective. I guess incest is only acceptable for some people?

You know, I think that Cesare and Lucrezia needed to communicate with each other better during the final few episodes. They kept speaking to each other in this coded language, as if they needed that whenever they were alone together and couldn't just speak honestly. I think that they should've been more direct about what they both wanted and needed from each other instead of worrying so much about them being found out. It's not like the rumors didn't exist already. They might've been able to have one more sex scene in season three if they did. Yeah, Lucrezia needed to be more assertive and Cesare needed to be less hesitant when it came to her. He should've kept her in his bed and not let her leave until they had sex again. She wouldn't have minded. And like you said, Alfonso was probably snuggling with a bottle of wine in his own bed.

Wow, that's a whole lot of stuff you wrote. Let me get back to you on that.

Mignonette

Hi Alex! A quick question on how to put more than one quote in a post. I've read FAQ but all I found was multi quotes is supposed to have a button, where? Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but I don't want to mess up and have a double post ugh!

So, Lol yes, I had a lot to say about that scene! Sorry it was so long. I wish I'd discovered the series when the board was more active cause as a newbie, my mind is overflowing with ideas! Thanks for reading tho

Damn the writers for giving us only one sex scene! CL tried to hook up more times, but even if Ces had tried to keep Lu in bed longer, the writers still would've said NOOO!

You're right, after becoming lovers, everything changed for them especially how they communicated when alone together. I think the coded language/not being direct was because becoming lovers brought the whole man/woman thing with all the games and insecurities into their once idyllic relationship. They were both blindsided by fears that hadn't before existed between them. They just didn't know how to identify or express them to one another. Thank god Lu finally did when she'd had enough of his pulling away, and it was everything he needed to hear.

BL.Arinna_1982

Crystal Clear

Lila , you could always copy and paste more than one quote into a post That's a simple way to answer multiple people at the same time.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Gwen! Hi, Arinna! I love those gifs!

Hi, Lila! No, this isn't the wrong place to ask.

Yeah, like Gwen said, all I do is copy and paste quotes into my posts. Do you know how to copy and past? You hold down the left click and move the cursor along all the words, sentences, paragraphs, and stuff you wanna copy(which will appear highlighted in blue) and then click and hold ctrl and C to copy, then paste what you copied into your post by clicking and holding ctrl and V, and the quote and anything else you wanna copy will appear in your post. That's how I post more than one quote into my posts. I don't know any other way. I click reply with quote on someone's post and then copy and paste the quote, then I back click to the page and click reply with quote on someone else's post and then past the last quote into the field below the other person's quote and post by clicking submit reply. If I have to do more than two, I just copy and past both quotes and so on.

Aww, it's okay. We like having lots of discussions on this thread. I wish you'd come here when the show was still on the air as well so you could've met and talked with all of the posters we used to have here. The board has gotten kind of slow and quiet since the show went off the air.

You think that the writers would've refused to make another sex scene for C/L even if Francois and Holly wanted to? That would suck.

Yeah, you noticed the body language and subtext between them after they had sex too, huh? I just wish they didn't have to do that and could've spoken more openly and honestly about it, including their desire to do it again. Lucrezia finally admitted how she felt in the finale episode but not in time to give them another good sex scene.

Wow! I love your analysis on Cesare potentially wanting to take Lucrezia's virginity on her wedding night before Sforza could get to her. Although it probably would make Sforza suspicious if the had sex with her and then noticed there was... nothing to indicate she was a virgin, you know? But I would've preferred that Lu's first time be with Cesare rather than what Sforza put her through. That was brutal and wrong. Your analysis reminds me of Mario Puzo's novel, The Family, where Rodrigo is the one who requests that Cesare be the one to take Lucrezia's virginity before her wedding night in order to keep her close to the family. It just shows that other writers were willing to go there, so NJ needn't have been so skittish.