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Old 05-14-2018, 01:24 PM
  #136
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I think they did the whole Paolo thing to be a distraction to CL possible romance in their relationship.
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Old 05-14-2018, 04:26 PM
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Micheletto was a creepy guy but an excellent servant to the Borgias so good on him for taking care of that situation I also loved seeing him care for Lucrezia's baby.


The Paolo relationship seemed very romanticized in Season 2, which was odd. Yes he was the baby daddy but he was also the reliable guy who she turned to because her marriage at the time sucked. He was a quiet guy who treated her well, but I never saw that going anywhere Too many differences.

Hi, Gwen!


Micheletto was kinda cute as babysitter to Lucrezia's baby.

Yeah, I think the only reason they needed to do the Paolo thing was to create tension between Lucrezia and Juan because that would be yet another thing that Lucrezia and Cesare would have in common. They became a united front against Juan in season 2 and that's what further bonded them.
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:34 PM
  #138
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But it was also weird how, the drugged Juan was thinking that Lucrezia's child is actually Cesare's also.
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:18 PM
  #139
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I have very mixed feelings on Juan killing Paolo in the show (wasn't it Cesare who did that in real life? Or am I remembering it wrong? I remember that Cesare was the one who had syphillis in real life, but they switched it to Juan in the show... It seemed like they went out their way to depict him as more of a villain than he actually was


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But it was also weird how, the drugged Juan was thinking that Lucrezia's child is actually Cesare's also.

That didn't surprise me at all. It confirmed what I felt all along - Juan was overprotective of Lucrezia when Paolo came into the picture, because he sensed a rivalry between himself and Cesare as her protector. I think he knew that the two of them had been extraordinarily close and had picked up on the sexual vibe since they were younger.
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:55 PM
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I have very mixed feelings on Juan killing Paolo in the show (wasn't it Cesare who did that in real life? Or am I remembering it wrong? I remember that Cesare was the one who had syphillis in real life, but they switched it to Juan in the show... It seemed like they went out their way to depict him as more of a villain than he actually was

That didn't surprise me at all. It confirmed what I felt all along - Juan was overprotective of Lucrezia when Paolo came into the picture, because he sensed a rivalry between himself and Cesare as her protector. I think he knew that the two of them had been extraordinarily close and had picked up on the sexual vibe since they were younger.
Actually, Paolo didn't exist in real life, Gwen. Lucrezia had an affair with Perotto, who was the messenger for her father, Pope Alexander. Paolo was a made up character. The only person Cesare supposedly killed was Alfonso. And yeah, they did switch out the syphilis on the show and gave it to Juan instead.

I think they used Juan more as a plot device in season 2. He was the antagonist to both Cesare and Lucrezia and had given them both reason to hate him. Perhaps Juan had also suspected them of incest, but on the show he had his suspicions long before Cesare and Lucrezia actually committed incest. So he could tell the future as well.
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Old 05-16-2018, 06:16 PM
  #141
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And yeah, they did switch out the syphilis on the show and gave it to Juan instead.

I think they used Juan more as a plot device in season 2. He was the antagonist to both Cesare and Lucrezia and had given them both reason to hate him.

I don't think David Oakes was too happy with how far they descended with Juan He was openly upset about leaving the show so soon. I think he felt there was more potential to be explored in his family relationships and I have to agree Juan was under-served by the show and cast as the villain in the eyes of the public, forced to commit crimes which were never really proven in reality. He was the scapegoat, I guess you could say.


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Perhaps Juan had also suspected them of incest, but on the show he had his suspicions long before Cesare and Lucrezia actually committed incest. So he could tell the future as well.

I loved the scene where he was open about sensing their incest when he did the drugs It was also beautifully shot, as if he was in a daze.


Honestly, I hated how the show went from Lucrezia having sweet moments with Juan in 2x02 to despising him in 2x03 but it was definitely intentional on the writers' part to push her closer towards Cesare (not even in a sexual way at this point, just highlighting him as the more dependable brother.)
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:24 PM
  #142
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I just thought that it was strange.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:44 PM
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Hi, Gwen!

Yeah, I heard that David Oakes was a bit disappointed to find out that Juan was like Sonny Corleone in this story and Cesare was like Michael. And was he upset about that? He lasted longer than the guy who played Juan on Borgia. He got killed off after one season. But David had to know that Juan was gonna die sooner or later because he died in the history and Cesare took over the armies. Yeah, I guess they wanted to cast Juan as more of a tragic figure who was undone by drugs and illness, as well as being insecure about his position in the family.

I agree, I kind of felt sorry for Juan when he was lying there alone in the opium house contemplating Cesare and Lucrezia having "congress" with each other. Wow, so many names for sexual intercourse.

Yep, I agree, the leap from Lucrezia being affectionate with Juan and wanting him dead happened really quickly. Notice how in season 1 she tried to save his life by getting King Charles to stop his canon fire, but then in season 2 she tried to kill him with a chandelier. That was mostly because of Juan having Paolo killed. And you're right, it was mostly to forge an alliance between Lucrezia and Cesare to further their budding romantic relationship.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:45 PM
  #144
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I think they did the whole Paolo thing to be a distraction to CL possible romance in their relationship.
Hello everyone! I'm Lila. I discovered The Borgias only a couple of months ago on Netflix and am completely obsessed with the show especially with Cesare & Lucrezia. Thanks to everyone for keeping these discussions alive and so interesting! I'd love to be added to the list of devotees for C&L.

Re: Paolo and Ursula - it seems that these 2 characters exist mainly to show contrast. That the obsessive and idealistic love the siblings share is like no other and CANNOT be replaced by any other. "Do my eyes deceive me?" yes, Cesare, your eyes deceive you: she's not Lucrezia, not even close!
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Old 05-18-2018, 07:35 AM
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David had to know that Juan was gonna die sooner or later because he died in the history and Cesare took over the armies.

True, Alex Although looking back, it's quite obvious to me that the show went downhill when they lost David Oakes. He had a strong charisma about him that made him completely fascinating to watch, no matter how dark his character got. Plus, Season 3 was quite boring with Juan. You need a character like that to shake things up and keep other characters in conflict. I personally would have loved to see an emotional final moment between Juan and Lucrezia where he genuinely apologized to her for the things he'd done, instead of that stupid moment where they had him lower the baby over the balcony The writers basically screwed up Juan on purpose to push Cesare and Lucrezia forward as this strongly bonded pair and as much as I love C/L, I didn't want to see Juan disgraced as a result. I don't mind the story playing out tragically because it's true to life, but forcing his character to do villainous things which Cesare is rumored to have actually done just seems unfair to me.


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Hello everyone! I'm Lila. I discovered The Borgias only a couple of months ago on Netflix and am completely obsessed with the show especially with Cesare & Lucrezia. Thanks to everyone for keeping these discussions alive and so interesting! I'd love to be added to the list of devotees for C&L.

Re: Paolo and Ursula - it seems that these 2 characters exist mainly to show contrast. That the obsessive and idealistic love the siblings share is like no other and CANNOT be replaced by any other. "Do my eyes deceive me?" yes, Cesare, your eyes deceive you: she's not Lucrezia, not even close!

Welcome to the thread, Lila! My name is Gwen, it's great to meet you Please come here as often as you can! We're all a welcoming bunch of people here and happy to have another CL fan join the group


I agree with your view about Paolo and Ursula Both relationships were doomed to fail because Cesare and Lucrezia were always invested in each other and put each other first. I saw the same traits in Heathcliff and Kathy's romance in Wuthering Heights and that story basically ends with the two of them being declared as star-crossed soulmates.


I always got the sense that Lucrezia would rather die than live without Cesare. That sounds unhealthy, but let's face it - some of the most epic, romantic couples in literature are filled with toxic behaviors.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:50 PM
  #146
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Welcome to the thread, Lila!
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:39 PM
  #147
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Hello everyone! I'm Lila. I discovered The Borgias only a couple of months ago on Netflix and am completely obsessed with the show especially with Cesare & Lucrezia. Thanks to everyone for keeping these discussions alive and so interesting! I'd love to be added to the list of devotees for C&L.

Re: Paolo and Ursula - it seems that these 2 characters exist mainly to show contrast. That the obsessive and idealistic love the siblings share is like no other and CANNOT be replaced by any other. "Do my eyes deceive me?" yes, Cesare, your eyes deceive you: she's not Lucrezia, not even close!
Hi, Lila! I'm Alex! Welcome to The Borgias board! I'm happy to meet you, and I'm glad you just discovered the show! I'll add you to the list now! And you're welcome. We're happy to see anyone come here and continue the discussion of this couple.

Yes! Thanks for agreeing with me about Paolo and Ursula. I've said before that they were not only serving as replacements for Cesare and Lucrezia, but to show how no one else could ever be good enough for them and it would only ever be the two of them.

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True, Alex Although looking back, it's quite obvious to me that the show went downhill when they lost David Oakes. He had a strong charisma about him that made him completely fascinating to watch, no matter how dark his character got. Plus, Season 3 was quite boring with Juan. You need a character like that to shake things up and keep other characters in conflict. I personally would have loved to see an emotional final moment between Juan and Lucrezia where he genuinely apologized to her for the things he'd done, instead of that stupid moment where they had him lower the baby over the balcony The writers basically screwed up Juan on purpose to push Cesare and Lucrezia forward as this strongly bonded pair and as much as I love C/L, I didn't want to see Juan disgraced as a result. I don't mind the story playing out tragically because it's true to life, but forcing his character to do villainous things which Cesare is rumored to have actually done just seems unfair to me.
Yeah, I did end up missing David a lot. Juan did bring something to the show in those first two seasons that was lost in season 3. He did make a good antagonist for Cesare and Lucrezia in those two seasons. But we had to know that this was coming because Juan had to die anyway to keep things consistent with the history. But they probably could've done it in a way that didn't disgrace Juan. Season 3 did end up a lot darker and more tragic than the previous ones despite giving us the C/L romance.
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:49 PM
  #148
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Hi, Lila! I'm Alex! Welcome to The Borgias board! I'm happy to meet you, and I'm glad you just discovered the show! I'll add you to the list now! And you're welcome. We're happy to see anyone come here and continue the discussion of this couple.

Yes! Thanks for agreeing with me about Paolo and Ursula. I've said before that they were not only serving as replacements for Cesare and Lucrezia, but to show how no one else could ever be good enough for them and it would only ever be the two of them.
Thanks for the welcome everyone!!

Something I've not seen mentioned (please forgive me if it has and I missed it):

In the first C/L scene, Ces has just had sex moments before chasing and catching Lu. Wouldn't he be "covered" in sex scents? Testosterone-laden sweat, p***y, and idk semen? He's literally inches from her nose with his face, hands, and body. I mean the girl is 14, not 4, so she's a hormone-driven teen girl and would be aroused by this. And she's aware enough to sneak over and watch her brother completely naked having sex. How innocent is she really? She knows it's improper. It's not the first time either "ANOTHER fine lady". Ces could easily have prevented her spying by latching that window shut, but...he doesn't...And he automatically knows it's her when he hears the knocking sound "Lucrezia!". He tells her there's a "PUNISHMENT" so they both know this is something forbidden, but he doesn't say or do anything to punish her. He actually REWARDS her with affection, heavily sexual in nature. Lying on top of her after pushing her down onto her back, being inches from her face, and having his hands on her - as a lover would do. He wants her to be aroused by him, to want him as he wants her. He wants her to see and hear him having sex, to see his manhood aroused and erect, and to see that he is A MAN, a sexual man. He's conflicted being her protective older brother (only 4 years older tho), but he's still a man and can't fight his lust for her.

This is a game they play, a version of "WANT AND WANTING", and they are BOTH perfectly aware of their more-than-siblings love and lust for each other. It's easy to assume Lu was the innocent: an angelic-looking young girl, and that Ces was the devilish teenage boy. But repeatedly Lu tells us that she's not as innocent as she looks: "how many votes must we buy in the papal election?" "My mother was once what they call a courtesan" and teasingly to Ces "surely it is good to be married" referring to sex. She stares at his lips a lot and blushes furiously while telling him that she'll be a nun and would never love a husband as she loved him. Notice she didn't say "as much as I love you", no, she said "AS I love you". Big difference! "As I love you" implies an action or at least lust. Remember when Alfonso says to Ces in season 3 during the sword fighting scene: "does she love me...AS SHE LOVES her brother"? He knows the sibs are doing incestuous things - not just feeling incestuous things.

Realizing Lu had and was aware of her lust for her brother from the very first scene, the S3 E2 armor and bedroom scenes aren't disjointed at all. It only seems jarring if we assume her lack of awareness and then out-of-nowhere sudden awakening to her desires. Jeez even when Ces brought her the bloody knife after killing Sforza, he says "I promised you a heart", to which she replies "whose, your own?' No, I'm sure she knew exactly what she felt and wanted from her brother. She only needed an excuse to act and clueless Alfonso gave it to her.

Last edited by PhoenixRising; 05-19-2018 at 03:25 PM
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:05 AM
  #149
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Yeah, I did end up missing David a lot. Juan did bring something to the show in those first two seasons that was lost in season 3. He did make a good antagonist for Cesare and Lucrezia in those two seasons. But we had to know that this was coming because Juan had to die anyway to keep things consistent with the history. But they probably could've done it in a way that didn't disgrace Juan. Season 3 did end up a lot darker and more tragic than the previous ones despite giving us the C/L romance.

I look back now and honestly think they could have kept Juan in the show until the very end, and killed him off in the same episode as Alfonso. Two parallel deaths which affect Cesare and Lucrezia in different ways.


That said, I did enjoy seeing how Cesare was affected during Season 3 by killing Juan The knowledge that his father still doted on Juan the most even after his death, and when Cesare told Alfonso that he loved his brother in spite of everything, I teared up


Quote:
Something I've not seen mentioned (please forgive me if it has and I missed it):

In the first C/L scene, Ces has just had sex moments before chasing and catching Lu. Wouldn't he be "covered" in sex scents? Testosterone-laden sweat, p***y, and idk semen? He's literally inches from her nose with his face, hands, and body. I mean the girl is 14, not 4, so she's a hormone-driven teen girl and would be aroused by this. And she's aware enough to sneak over and watch her brother completely naked having sex. How innocent is she really? She knows it's improper. It's not the first time either "ANOTHER fine lady". Ces could easily have prevented her spying by latching that window shut, but...he doesn't...And he automatically knows it's her when he hears the knocking sound "Lucrezia!". He tells her there's a "PUNISHMENT" so they both know this is something forbidden, but he doesn't say or do anything to punish her. He actually REWARDS her with affection, heavily sexual in nature. Lying on top of her after pushing her down onto her back, being inches from her face, and having his hands on her - as a lover would do. He wants her to be aroused by him, to want him as he wants her. He wants her to see and hear him having sex, to see his manhood aroused and erect, and to see that he is A MAN, a sexual man. He's conflicted being her protective older brother (only 4 years older tho), but he's still a man and can't fight his lust for her.

This is a game they play, a version of "WANT AND WANTING", and they are BOTH perfectly aware of their more-than-siblings love and lust for each other. It's easy to assume Lu was the innocent: an angelic-looking young girl, and that Ces was the devilish teenage boy. But repeatedly Lu tells us that she's not as innocent as she looks: "how many votes must we buy in the papal election?" "My mother was once what they call a courtesan" and teasingly to Ces "surely it is good to be married" referring to sex. She stares at his lips a lot and blushes furiously while telling him that she'll be a nun and would never love a husband as she loved him. Notice she didn't say "as much as I love you", no, she said "AS I love you". Big difference! "As I love you" implies an action or at least lust. Remember when Alfonso says to Ces in season 3 during the sword fighting scene: "does she love me...AS SHE LOVES her brother"? He knows the sibs are doing incestuous things - not just feeling incestuous things.

Alfonso knew he was in a losing battle for Lucrezia's heart, I think, ever since episode 3 of Season 3. When Cesare yells at Alfonso for not defending her honor and her baby, you can see this look of terror and realization in Alfonso's expression, as if he finally knows how much Lucrezia means to Cesare and how far he would go to protect her. It's the same feeling he gets in 3x09 when he sees Lucrezia call out in relief for Cesare instead of her husband. That feeling of knowing, "even if you're married to her, you'll always be second best."


C/L played the long game with their sexually charged teasing games their whole lives But it's not until Cesare witnesses Lucrezia get married (Season 1, episode 4) that he realizes he could lose her - as a LOVER. Notice the dull, stern look on his face when he's marrying them - he looks like he could kill someone. He's never had that same intense level of feeling for any other woman.


And it's addressed again in 3x10, the Series Finale - Lucrezia's big emotional confession to Cesare as he asks "is it God or the Devil" (with them) and she replies, "whatever it is, it overwhelms" They've just got ENDGAME written all over them, even in the face of tragedy.


Quote:
Jeez even when Ces brought her the bloody knife after killing Sforza, he says "I promised you a heart", to which she replies "whose, your own?' No, I'm sure she knew exactly what she felt and wanted from her brother. She only needed an excuse to act and clueless Alfonso gave it to her.

Lucrezia seemed to tease Cesare for years about his feelings for her It was quite clear that they both knew how the other felt, and that it was beyond siblings love, but they knew there was a boundary they couldn't quite cross - until Juan died, and suddenly Lucrezia stepped up more as a mature member of the family and made her own decisions, including finally making love with Cesare.
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Old 05-19-2018, 03:51 PM
  #150
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Was he staring at Juan in that scene? I don't remember what episode that pic is from.

I just cringe at Alfonso's hairy butt. I didn't need to see that. But yes, Lucrezia was all about Cesare.

Well, once Alfonso is dead it's not technically a betrayal. The only time Lucrezia betrayed Alfonso was when she slept with Cesare on her wedding night.
Lol Alex, I cringe at Alfonso's hairy butt too. Truthfully, every part of him makes me cringe, physically and personality-wise. All his body fur had me gagging like a cat on a hair ball My god, Alfonso, get that s**t waxed off GAK!

Short/small men and furry men turn me off, so I feel Lucrezia's pain. After enjoying her brother in all his splendid nakedness, how can she even be in the same room with him without wanting to peel him out of those leather pants?
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