Crystal Clear

Oh yeah, definitely agree with you Lila Cesare is constantly aware of Lucrezia's behavior. He's basically her guardian angel, who secretly wants her for himself... I think she always knew.


This kiss scene is heartbreaking; you can feel their pain -



And this kiss-lip bite is insanely sexy -

BL.Arinna_1982

I think they pointed out that, that was a love making scene, not just a sex scene.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Gwen! Yeah, the lip biting thing when they kiss was hot.

OMG, I'm sorry, Lila. Yeah, I just mixed up Linda and Lila. They both start with L and end with A. I moderate three boards and post on several more and I mix up names a lot. Sorry. Yeah, I guess as a girl you'd prefer the two guys thing. But not Alfonso. Yeah, you'd want two Cesares.

Ah, I see what you're getting there. Giulia was integral to Lucrezia's progression and growth as a character, from a child to a woman, including teaching her about "pleasure" with a man. She was actually preparing Lucrezia for Cesare, although she didn't know it at the time. No, it's not redundant for me so don't worry. Their kiss was still hot, though. Ces and Lu's kisses were maddeningly teasing, though. Who kisses their sibling like that? When Lu kissed him on the lips after asking him to marry her to Alfonso... while they were in bed? Yeah, that's normal. And just so you know, it's true that two women can kiss for a number of reasons, yes. But to men it will always appear to be sexual. It's just how we're wired. And thank you, Lila, you don't know how many guys will love to know that girls kiss each other to learn how to kiss boys.

I don't think that Lucrezia ever met Charlotte, so she wouldn't have tried to poison her. I think all those rumors of Lucrezia poisoning people was exaggerated by the Borgias enemies to give her a bad reputation. And she definitely wouldn't have tried to poison her own father and brother. Yeah, what happened to Cesare in real life was horrible. He died like Richard III.

Thanks, Lila. That's the first thing that came to my mind. Ces did remind me of Batman/Zorro when he was in that black outfit and mask. And Caterina's name begins with "Cat." Oh, I don't think Cat was taunting Ces to rape her, because no one does that to her. I think she was just teasing him to get under his skin, like she did when he visited her in Forli. She used a lot of innuendo with him there as well, like her comment about "brining a knife into a woman's chamber." Yeah, I'm sure knife and chamber weren't metaphors. But you're right, in season three Ces wasn't going for Cat's advances because he couldn't overlook that fact that she tried to have Lu and their entire family killed. And yeah, he did get rough with her after he captured her at Forli, but afterwards he did treat her with respect, demanding that she be dressed in her best clothing and afforded all dignity... aside from being in a cage.

Mignonette

Hi Gwen! Yes, he's a guardian angel with a devils desire to sex up his little sister

They'd been playing their "want & wanting" games for years. Their first scene showed this perfectly. He let her see his naked aroused body and watch him having sex, cause he wanted her to see him as a MAN, to desire him as he desired her. And she did desire him, cause she loved watching him naked and stared at his lips A LOT. He teased her after by saying he'd punish her - huge sexual innuendo - but his "punishment" was grabbing her, tossing her to the ground, lying on top of her, saying how much he loved her, and caressing her. What a horrible punishment!

Proof of their awareness of each another's incestual feelings is the fact that they were always alone whenever they did anything inappropriate.

That bite kiss is hot! Too bad it's dark. We get only 1 sex scene and it's dark as ****

Hi Alex, it's ok! Idk how you keep anything straight moderating 3 boards. How do you have time to read everything and post such intelligent well-thought-out replies? Are you a wizard? Lol

Yeah, the poisoning rumours prob started out of envy & perceived slights. Lu was a beautiful woman. She was also very sexual, but only when she lived near her family. (Ces had that affect on her ) Like in TB, Juan had an intense rivalry with Cesare. After Lu's confinement at the convent, he started competing with Cesare for her attention. Ces was infuriated with him for trying to get close to her. It's why he's always been the prime suspect in his murder. Correspondence from within the Vatican claimed Ces confessed to Rodrigo and that very same day, R called off the search for the murderer. Her incest with Ces is very likely, but with R, no. Idk if Lu poisoned anyone, but if she did, they prob deserved it

NJ used a lot of this stuff in his writing. It was rumoured that Ces & Lu were partners in crime and she used poison where he used violence. How they killed Alf on the show is a perfect example: his blade, finished off by her poison.

IRL she deeply mourned Alf in public, but then danced with Ces all cuddly and adoring, like they were lovers. Exactly as they did in TB at her betrothal while Alf watched them with a wtf? look on his face. NJ saying there was no incest, but writing them as incestual, mirrors historical records showing they probably were, but many people don't want to believe it.

Rape may not be the correct english word. What I meant was she was daring taunting? that he could be forceful with her if he wished and she wouldn't be able or even want to stop him. He definitely could've raped her if he'd wished. He's much stronger and bigger, so unless she had a weapon, he could do whatever he wanted. It's like her saying she only kneels when she wants to or in The Family when Ces rapes her and she enjoys it. You can't rape the willing and she'd be more than willing. Maybe no man had done that to her, but I think she wanted a man who could and would. It was part of her fascination with Ces after they had sex. She knew he'd be capable of dominating her once he claimed his true power. He was still a BOY at that time. As he matured and grew more powerful, so did her fascination with him.

Ces sexually assaulting her by grabbing her breasts proves this. It WAS assault and he did it in response to her taunts just to show her that yes, he could do whatever he wanted to her and she'd be powerless to stop him. Sexual assault is about power and he exercised his over her. It turned her on.

Ces didn't treat her with respect or dignity at all after her capture! He did everything possible to dehumanize and humiliate her. Saving her from the dignified (her word) death she'd chosen for herself as a warrior, cause HE wanted her to live, imposing his will on her - disrespectful. Being violent with her on the bed and humiliating her in front of the maids and guards by taunting her about being in tiger stripes - disrespectful. Forcing her to dress up and take his (her captor!) arm walking to her CAGE in front of her Forli subjects - disrespectful. Being chained inside a cage and paraded like a circus animal HIS TROPHY TIGER all the way to Rome - disrespectful. No, he did all these things for his own benefit to show her off as his winner's trophy and he treated her the way he did to publicly humiliate her. Why? REVENGE for trying to kill Lu and his mother and nephew.

I somehow missed the knife and chamber metaphors, so thanks for pointing those out! I love how your dirty mind works Alex!

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

I think that's your favorite scene, Arinna.

Hi, Lila!

Wouldn't you like to know? But no, it's not easy.

So this is the actual history you're talking about? Juan and Cesare actually did have a rivalry over Lucrezia's affections? Because it didn't seem like there was a lot of warmth between Lu and Juan on the show. Borgia did show a rivalry there, however. Yes, I do know that Ces was always suspected of Juan's murder. And OMG, let's not even discuss the Lu/Rodrigo rumors. And yeah, even if Lu did poison someone they probably deserved it. I had no idea that it was said that Ces and Lu were partners in crime, though. This all from the history?

Yep, Lu did mourn Alf publicly, but she did the same after Ces died. Wait, Lu danced with Ces after Alf's death? Man, now I wish we had a fourth season just to show that happening. And I'm sick of NJ saying there was no evidence of incest because he did a lot of other stuff on that show that never happened in the history either. The Rodrigo/Bianca thing, for one. Paolo for another.

Ah, I see what you meant with Caterina, Lila. Yeah, I guess taunting or daring is more correct. But I'd advise against Ces trying to rape Cat because she might cut off something that Lu wouldn't want him to lose. But yeah, Cesare did grow and mature a lot from when Cat first knew him, which is probably what intrigued her. I think Caterina was okay with Ces getting rough with her as long as it was on her terms in her castle.

Well, I meant when he took Caterina to Rome, Lila. Yeah, I saw what he did to her in her bedroom, claiming to have tamed a tigress. But she was still treated well when she was taken to Rome, despite being in a cage. I think it was actually Rodrigo who insisted she be given dignity when she was captured. And yeah, Cat did try to kill Lu and Ces' family, but Cesare did kill both her cousins and Mich killed her son, so I think she had suffered enough by then.

Hey, I didn't write this stuff, Lila. Just like Francois and Holly said, I'm just going by what NJ and the other writers wrote. But thanks.

Crystal Clear

Absolutely and probably the only love scene in the entire show. Most of the other couples just had sleazy sex scenes.


And I love the extended GIF you posted, so powerful His way of telling her "I want to be with you, but I can't, and I'm sorry"

BL.Arinna_1982

Cesare took a long road, until he admitted his true self to himself.

Crystal Clear

It was so sad, how he pulled away from her at the end of that episode

Mignonette

Hi Arinna! Yes, he'd always been Lu's white knight, so it took him a while to remove his armor.

Hi Gwen! It was his way of saying he couldn't be with her? I'd never thought of it that way, but I guess you're right I'd seen it as her anguish in his letting her down cracked his stoic veneer. He just can't handle when he disappointments her. Like in the wedding board scene when she questions him being by her side, his veneer cracks and he kisses her then also. Her disppointment always echoes his own disappointment in himself & that's what triggers him.

They'd always placed each other on pedestals. He was her knight & she was his angel. After the armory kiss, they both fell off their pedestals. Him kissing her for the first time WHILE IN ARMOR was symbolic of his fall from white knight to human man showing his sister his lust for her. She became a fallen angel when she took off her clothes for him.

Hi Alex! Yes, it's all from history. I've been fascinated by the Borgias forever, so read everything I could find long before watching the tv shows. It's why I recognize when NJ uses historical elements in some scenes. You're right, he added a lot things that were fantasy. Like how CL made love only ONCE for 1 minute! As I've said, I believe they were lovers IRL. Maybe NJ does also, but was afraid to admit it? He wrote CL as incestual & then destroyed them in TBA, so unless that awful script was a ploy to shut fans up about season 4, he wasn't being honest about his belief in their incest. Why did we have to suffer thru lurid sex scenes that burned our eyes out, but only 1 love making scene of CL?

PhoenixRising

Hi, Gwen! Yeah, Ces and Lu's sex scene was the only one that was truly romantic. Too bad we got so little of it.

Hi, Lila! Oh, so it is? I'm glad we have you to give us some backstory. We've had other posters who also knew about the Borgias history, but they don't post that often anymore, or some don't post anymore at all, sadly.

Was the CL love scene a full minute? I can't remember now. Seemed longer, but I could've been mistaken. I still think they should've had one more when Lu returned to Rome while Alf was drunk and passed out.

Mignonette

Hi Alex! I want a custom TB avatar, so thanks for helping me towards 100 posts When I saw FF with fans still discussing TB 5 years after it ended, I was so happy A lot of people can't get beyond the incest, so it's impossible to discuss TB with them. They don't see that CL share a rare, once in a lifetime kind of love. For me, that's the true story Maybe I'm a romantic dirty-minded french girl, but the fact they're siblings makes their relationship even hotter.

Yeah, it was that short! From their first to their last kiss was barely 1 minute. I checked

Only with Cesare Borgia could a woman ever climax in 1 minute

God Alex, yes, her waking him should've been morning after sex I knew it was Ces from the beginning of that scene close up of her hand over his, cause François bites his nails. My brother does too, so I know the signs

Lu caressed the hand he had lying right on top of his ****, so we know what she wanted. When her hand lingered at the top of his blanket, I thought for sure she was going to slip it underneath like Cat did on their morning after when he was sleeping.

Did it take you a while to figure out what was going on with CL in that scene? I had to watch it several times to get all the nuances.

The neck kiss shows he wants her, but he got a ***** from seeing her arousal caused by that kiss, so he immediately backed off & said "ambassador", breaking the spell for HER. He can't stop touching her tho, so he starts kissing her fingers. She's disappointed he didn't continue the neck kissing and tries to spur him into action by making him jealous with the "I have my husband" so I have everything comment. He IS jealous, so he bites & sucks her finger "everything?" meaning "Oh really? If I'm not ******* you, you definitely don't have everything". He bit her from desire, but also out of anger: she'd come to his bed to seduce him, but then said her husband meant everything to her. Wow, imagine how that comment hurt him

He's not used to relating to his sister as a lover, so he didn't realize how rejected and confused she felt by his hot/cold behavior. She successfully reassured him with "almost everything" and started to kiss him. He would've kissed her and probably more, because he turned his head to her and opened his mouth. He was letting her do the leading cause he's ******* conflicted. She misread his passivity and assumed if he desired her enough, then he'd be more aggressive. So she gave up and said "come visit soon" breaking the spell for HIM, because she'd reminded him about her home in Naples where she lives with her HUSBAND. He's irritated so he doesn't return her nose rubbing. She stops and looks at him with a hurt irritated face. He turns away from her and stares at the ceiling. She gives a huge sigh and slowly starts drawing her arm away from his grasp. He sighs, because he can't find words to tell her what he's going thru. He clings to her hand for a moment, then reluctantly lets her go. She climbs out of his bed, slowly walking to the door as he watches her with longing. She glances over her shoulder to find him staring longingly, so she stops in her tracks and turns facing him with a look that says "Yes?" But he quickly stares at the ceiling again, so she walks out. He adjusts his pelvis cause she's given him a massive ***** and lets out a huge sigh. They miss out and we miss out too, cause they've both misinterpreted the other's motivations. Ughhhh

When they returned to Rome, Ces made the joke to Lu about Alf needing a bigger cot like Giovanni. So yeah, I can see Alf passed out drunk in his new baby cot that Ces bought for him while he & Lu have all kinds of adults only fun

Crystal Clear

That's how I interpreted it, Lila


The frantic way he kisses her in 3x04... There's an element of heartbreak behind it. His desperation need to show her how passionate he feels about her, and how he doesn't want her to go through with the public sex with Alfonso, but also... An inner turmoil in them both.


That was their entire relationship in Season 3, in my opinion. Their desperation to restrain their emotions for other after finally consummating their love.

BL.Arinna_1982

And after that, Lucrezia just stopped fighting against her feelings for him, but he needed more time.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Gwen! Yeah, that kiss between Ces and Lu in 3x4 was intense and passionate, more like an angry lovers' kiss, right?


Hi, Lila! Aww, I'm happy to help you get to 100 posts. I remember when I got to 100 posts. I thought it was a big deal when I got to 1,000 posts, and look at where my post count is now. I still can't believe I'm modding three boards. But if you wanna help your post count you can also post on the game threads if you like. Those are a good way to increase your count, as well as the board's count. What avatar do you have in mind?

I'm glad you were happy to see we were still discussing The Borgias here. We try to keep things going. And I've actually never heard of anyone who let the incest between C/L bother them, to be honest. And yeah, I get what you mean. I felt the same way about Chris and Cathy Dollenganger in Flowers In The Attic.

Damn, the love scene was just a minute? We needed more than that after three seasons. And I don't think climaxing in one minute is necessarily what a lot of women want. They'd like to extend it a little from what I understand.

Yeah, Cesare did make a habit of berating Alf. His shortness was probably why Cesare intimidated him. I think Lu was taller than he was.

Oh, the waking up scene really should've been a morning after sex scene. I was really hoping for that after I saw the promos for that episode, but it sucked that the most he got to do to her was kiss her neck.


I'm gonna read the rest of your comment soon, Lila. I'm really exhausted after work and I'm gonna take a nap soon. I have four days off coming up this week after Wednesday because my birthday is Sunday and so is Arinna's.