PhoenixRising

Ohh, I see, Linda. Jordan didn't expect what he was gonna get with Francois and Holly. Yeah, that makes sense. But they still saw what was in the writing, so as much as I love complimenting them, it wasn't all them. But it was nice to watch.

I'll reply to the rest of your comment soon, Linda. I'm a bit behind because of work and this being the week of Christmas.

LindaL100

Hi Arinna

Hey Alex, of course Francois & Holly were not the only reason that made Cesare & Lu's incest so great, it was really the combination of the writing, and Francois & Holly's brilliant chemistry & performances that really made the incest work so well.

here's more Cesare & Lu goodies

BL.Arinna_1982

Hey, hun! Thank you for bringing these tweet here.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Thanks for posting the links!

You know, I was actually expecting Cesare and Lucrezia's relationship to end tragically, although not in the way that Jordan wrote in Apocalypse. I had watched the BBC version of Borgia with Arinna and one of our other posters(I forget if it was Christine or Barbara), and I was expecting something along those lines. The irony is that Showtime's The Borgias had the romantic incest scenes, while BBC's The Borgias had the ending the Showtime series needed, with Cesare dying on a battlefield after being ambushed while Lucrezia reads his final letter to her to her children. His final thoughts were of her, and you could tell that she loved him just as much from her reactions to his letter. Too bad the BBC series couldn't show it. They could show Cesare sleeping with Sancia, but not Lucrezia... but they could imply sex between Lucrezia and Rodrigo? This is why I prefer the Showtime version, but I think the BBC version's ending would've been great if it were tacked on to the Showtime series.

I also agree that it wouldn't have been as compelling to an audience if it weren't for the incestuous nature of their relationship. The fact that it wasn't condoned by society made it all the more tragic and romantic at the same time.

Oh, and if we don't see you before the holidays, Linda, have a Merry Christmas!

BL.Arinna_1982

I still think the SHO's ending would've been more romantic than the BBC one. The CL relationship was presented differently in the both shows.

PhoenixRising

I agree, which is why I think that the Showtime ending should've been more like the BBC ending. Only that ending would've had a better storyline for Cesare and Lucrezia leading up to it, making it a truly tragic ending to an epic romance.

LindaL100

I agree with you both...I was expecting Cesare & Lu's relationship to end tragically in one way or another because that's really the only logical outcome for the siblings...I mean, it was not likely for the siblings to have a happily ever after ending. Even though Jordan could've given the siblings a happy ending if he wanted to, maybe have the siblings run away and start a new life together in another country and have little incest babies together and live happily ever after, but it's just not plausible. And I think if the siblings were able to survive and have a happy ending together somehow, it probably would've taken a bit away from the forbidden and tragic aspect of their incestuous relationship that made their lovestory all the more compelling to begin with. So no matter what happens in the end for the siblings, it was bound to be a sad ending for them regardless...BUT, I was definitely not expecting the horribly-written ending Jordan wrote in his follow-up book, Lu murdering her own father and attempted to poison Cesare too who was suppose to be the love of Lu's life? What kind of garbage was that? It was an atrocious and so poorly written ending that was so inconsistent with what was already established in the series!
Even though I was expecting a sad ending for the siblings, but I definitely would've preferred a better ending that was more consistent with the series...I would've preferred the idea that Cesare dies in the end but Lu never stopped loving him and mourned his death like his widow, as it was depicted in the BBC version and Mario Puzo's novel 'The Family'. I have yet to watch the BBC version but I love Puzo's novel, and the ending was so sad for me to read, the way Lu mourned her beloved Cesare's death in the novel was so heart-wrenching I get emotional whenever I read the ending just like I get so emotionally attached to the siblings' beautifully tragic forbidden lovestory depicted in the Showtime version However, even despite Showtime cancelling the series so abruptly without giving us the season 4 that they had initially promised us, I do like how the series ended. I mean, sure the series was cut short with 1 less season which resulted in a very unfinished ending with several plotlines left unresolved, but at least Cesare was still alive in the end and the siblings were still very much in love with each other that very last ending scene with Cesare & Lu on the bed together was so exquisite and powerful, like many of their other scenes together so we can't really complain too much about that ending as far as the incest plotline in the series was concerned. The real problem was the ending that Jordan had written in his disastrous book after the series ended which many fans do not consider to be canon anyway. If Showtime had renewed the series for a S4, then Cesare would've most likely had been killed by the end, that truly would've been a tragic ending for the siblings. So I'm happy the series at least ended with Cesare still alive and the siblings still together & loving each other! As far as the Showtime version is concerned, you could consider the abrupt ending to be a happy one for Cesare & Lu (if we completely disregard Jordan's book)...but it most certainly would not have been one if the series was renewed.

BL.Arinna_1982

I don't know if an alternative story line would've worked in The Borgias, but at least they should've tried to give us some closure.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! I'm gonna reply to your entire post soon. Tomorrow is Christmas Eve and my job is an absolute nightmare. But it'll soon be over, thank goodness. I hope you have a very Merry Christmas!

BL.Arinna_1982

I hope you have a day off after this day, Alex.

LindaL100

Arinna: there wasn't any real closure for us and other that's for sure...but as I mentioned before, if the series had an alternative ending, it most likely would've ended with a tragic one, thus I am relieved that at least it ended with a somewhat happy ending for Cesare & Lu.

Alex: it's ok just take your time I don't want to rush you, happy holidays


this pic reminds me that Cesare was more like a father to Lu's son Giovanni in the series, I'm sure he loved little Giovanni even as his uncle, but he was also very protective of him like a father would be After Paolo's death, I think Cesare really took it upon himself to take care of Giovanni and protect him like a surrogate father. Cesare has always loved and doted on his beloved sister Lu, and by extension he also loved her son like he was his own, I love that Lu made Cesare the godfather of Giovanni

BL.Arinna_1982

I was angry at the beginning when I saw this ending to be honest. However, I'm glad it ended in this way, because the ending that NJ had written, sucks!

LindaL100

yeah I was also initially disappointed with the ending of the series because Showtime cancelled the series so abruptly without giving us any real closure or resolution. But overtime I've gradually learned to appreciate the series ending we've got because as I said, at least it ended with a somewhat happy note for Cesare & Lu, and it was a better ending compared to the rubbish Jordan wrote in his book albeit unfinished.

here's more Cesare & Lu goodies

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! I hope you had a happy holiday! And thanks for waiting for me to post.

Thanks for all those links! Who's The Borgia Rose? You keep posting links to this Twitter account for all those Cesare/Lucrezia pics.

OMG, Cesare and Lucrezia running away together to another country? You just described one half of the end of Borgia, where Cesare went to the Americas. Sure, I supposed they could've had Cesare and Lucrezia fake their deaths and escape to the New World, but it was still an undeveloped land back than and not exactly the kind of place to raise children if you're a European settler. And yes, it would've taken away a lot of the forbidden aspect of their relationship and how tragic it was. Oh, my dream scenario would've been for Cesare to die in Lucrezia's arms as they declare their love for each other, but unfortunately he was in Spain and nowhere near Italy at the time of his death and she was still in Ferrara.

And I agree, Jordan's Apocalypse script was unnecessarily cruel and disrespectful to their characters. I mean, he has the nerve to say that Cesare and Lucrezia's incestuous romance has no historical evidence to support it, but where in the history did it say that Lucrezia poisoned her father, or Cesare for that matter? Where does it say in the history that Cesare died calling out Micheletto's name? Seriously, that's just hypocrisy on his part. I did like Puzo's version as well. And as for the BBC version, I don't really like the story or the plot(and I definitely don't like Rodrigo impregnating Lucrezia. ), but the ending was beautiful. Like I said, it shows Cesare being ambushed in Navarre, Spain, and as he's lying on the battlefield dying from his injuries, his final thoughts are of Lucrezia and their time together. And as Cesare is dying, the scene switches to Lucrezia reading his final letter to her aloud to her children, which is about as perfect an ending as you could imagine for such a tragic love story. Well, except for Cesare dying in her arms, like I said. But geography and history prevents that from happening, sadly.

Crystal Clear

HELLO MY FRIENDS! Long time no see


I sent Alex a message just to say that I haven't been on in months. Nothing wrong really, just VERY busy and never found the time to devote to coming back on the boards.

Today I am free so here I am! Hope you are all well


Neil Jordan's script for Season 4 or the movie or whatever it was supposed to be NO THANK YOU. He completely character assassinated Lucrezia. Out of nowhere, she was dismissive of Cesare. It would have made ZERO sense in the follow-up to Season 3 because she CLEARLY loved Cesare more than her husband.

I think an adaptation of his script for Season 4 would have destroyed my love for this show. Would have totally betrayed our favorite couple.