BL.Arinna_1982

Sounds good. Alex.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Yeah, that's the pic of the scene I mentioned earlier between Cesare and Lucrezia.

It's okay, Linda. That's what I thought you meant. And thanks because it is relevant with regards to how easily Francois seems to have chemistry with nearly everyone... except Sarah Ramos. I think we all agree that he has more chemistry with Arielle. Too bad they don't have plans to pair Manfred with Olivia. But it's not problem, and thanks for mentioning it.

Well, like I've said, I've seen Jordan's other work, like Interview With The Vampire, and I really don't think he gets the relationship drama stuff that well. And forget about female characters because he really doesn't get them. It's only through the great performances of Holliday and Joanne that Lucrezia and Vanozza turned out so well. And you're right, he does seem to contradict himself with his statements and his writing. If he didn't want any sexual tension between Cesare and Lucrezia he shouldn't have written it into the story. And you're also correct that a lot of what was in The Borgias is also not consistent with the history, so he can't pull the historical accuracy card.

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

Aww, the Eskimo kisses!

LindaL100

Alex: It's interesting that you say Jordan is not particularly good with writing romance drama, yet Cesare & Lucrezia had so much beautiful interactions together that were very romantic in a very Shakespearean way even though he did hire co-writers to help him for seasons 2 & 3, but even their scenes & interactions together in season 1 (which was entirely written by Jordan himself) were already very romantic, such as their first scene together when they were lying in the courtyard together, and the scene when Lucrezia told Cesare that she would never love a husband as she loves Cesare and then Cesare pushes Lu against the wall when he said he would cut her husband's heart out if he proves ungallant etc The writing for the incest plotline was so brilliant in the series, but even though the siblings' incestuous relationship had developed and evolved so beautifully throughout the series, the way it ended and how Jordan had handled the relationship and Lucrezia's character in his book were very disappointing and sloppy and so very inconsistent with his writing in the series.

This is one of my fav scenes in the entire series and also one of the best

credit: the__borgias

BL.Arinna_1982

Awwwwwwwwwwww! This is such a lovely art!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Awww, that's the scene I was talking about! Thanks for posting it!

Well, I've seen some of Jordan's other work, and he doesn't seem all that interested in the romance stuff. I think the Cesare/Lucrezia romance on the show was more collaborative than anything else. Yes, Jordan wrote those early scenes, but his initial idea for Cesare and Lucrezia is that they'd be perfect spouses if they weren't related to each other, so they kept seeking out love from other people who were basically their backups or replacements. I don't know if Jordan ever intended to take them as far as they eventually went in season 3, or if he intended for their incestuous subtext to be anything other than implied. I think the inconsistency we saw in season 3 was an indicator of this, like Jordan really didn't know what he wanted to do with them, which was really disappointing. I do agree that their season 1 scenes were beautifully written and almost tragically romantic, as you could tell that these two were perfect for each other and the only thing holding them back was the fact that they were siblings. But I'm not entirely sure that Jordan himself knew where he was going to take the story in future seasons, and we can thank Holly and Francois for having the insight into his writing to insist that Cesare and Lucrezia take things to the next level.

LindaL100

Even though Jordan did started writing the incest storyline with some well-written romantic overtones in season 1, but I agree with you that Cesare & Lucrezia's incestuous relationship may have far exceeded Jordan's initial intentions. If we consider his statements from saying that he wanted to portray Cesare & Lu as the perfect couple if they weren't siblings during S1, to arguing that there lacked any real evidence to prove that the siblings actually had an incestuous relationship in real-life while filming S3. It does imply to me that Jordan may have initially just wanted the siblings' relationship to remain strictly emotionally incestuous, I don't think he initially intended for Cesare & Lu's relationship to evolve into a physically incestuous one too. I think the fact that Cesare & Lu's forbidden love became much more passionate and intense both emotionally and physically in S3 was the result of the incredible chemistry between Francois & Holly, strong influences from other people (particularly from Francois & Holly) and the huge popularity of the Cesare & Lu incest plotline

BL.Arinna_1982

The fun part was that NJ himself stated that he won't go into the incest storyline. And yet, it was all over his writing and he actually wrote season 3.

LindaL100

Well like I said Jordan hired co-writers to help him write the scripts for seasons 2 & 3, he wrote 5 episodes for S2 and 6 eps for S3...probably because he also directed some of the eps in all 3 seasons, so he needed some help with writing the eps too.
But yes there were already quite a lot of intimate and incestuous overtones in the writing for Cesare & Lucrezia's relationship in S1 (which was entirely written by Jordan himself), it was all over his own writing, which is why Francois & Holly had arguments with Jordan about the incest plotline.

BL.Arinna_1982

I think he gave up in season 3 and just gave the fans what they wanted.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Sorry I didn't post the other day. I was busy with Thanksgiving stuff.

Yeah, I agree, I think that Jordan intended for Cesare and Lucrezia's relationship to remain platonic with an implied incestuous vibe. But again, his statements regarding the history ring hollow with me since he was doing a lot of things on the show that contradicted the history, whether it was with Paolo, or Bianca Gonzaga, or Joffre, or King Charles, or Prince Alfonso of Naples, or Giulia Farnese, or Ludovico Sforza.... he got the history wrong on a lot of those characters. So a lack of historical evidence for Cesare and Lucrezia's incestuous relationship is a pretty weak argument on his part. And I do think that the incest storyline actually added an element to the show that gave the two characters a bond that was separate from the family and Rodrigo, like Francois said. They were each other's refuge from their father's machinations and family loyalties. And of course, Holly and Francois' chemistry probably had a lot to do with it.

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

I love the Eskimo kisses.

BL.Arinna_1982

They are really cute!