LindaL100

Alex:

Since 'The Borgias' is the only work from Jordan I have watched so far, I can't comment about whether he likes romance stuff or not. But regarding what you said about him being more interested in Rodrigo's character, I think there might be some truth in that, I also get the impression that Jordan might've been more interested in Rodrigo's character and was probably more invested in his character and wanted the series to remain centered around Rodrigo all throughout the series. But we all know what actually happened, Cesare and Lucrezia quickly became so popular with viewers and fans alike both as individual characters and together as an incestuous couple that they quickly overshadowed Rodrigo's character, and by S3 the show eventually became more about Cesare & Lu, while Rodrigo became more of a supporting character to Cesare & Lu. And perhaps Jordan might have been upset about that fact, maybe Rodrigo was his favourite character so he wanted the series to always focus mainly on Rodrigo, and as you pointed out, he might've resented the fact that his fav character had been overshadowed by Cesare & Lu. And combine that with the strong possibility that he was probably forced or strongly influenced by others into making some decisions regarding Cesare & Lu's characters that were against his own views, I think all of these things only further supports my suspicions that Jordan had become upset and spiteful by the end of the series, especially towards Cesare & Lu's characters. I mean, it would explain the spitefulness and very negative tone of his follow-up book, the fact that he abruptly and completely destroyed Cesare & Lu's relationship and destroyed the integrity of Lu's character in his book. His book was a complete mess, it was disastrous writing from Jordan and so inconsistent with what was already established in the series and his overall writing in the series...it almost felt like the book could've been written by someone else or an amateur, that's how different and surprisingly awful his writing in his book was to me

Arinna: thanks for posting the cute gif

BL.Arinna_1982

I always thought that nose rubbing thing is so lovely!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda!

Well, I've seen some of Jordan's movies, like Interview With The Vampire, so he doesn't strike me as the "romance" type of guy. But yeah, as for his being more interested in Rodrigo, that's because he made the Borgias with the intention of making a Renaissance era version of The Godfather. That's probably why the first season became so frustrating with Cesare being involved with Ursula and Lucrezia's relationship with Paolo. But I think even Showtime was surprised with how popular Francois and Holly's chemistry was in season one.


I sometimes wondered if The Borgia Apocalypse was actually a dummy script that Jordan released just to piss off the fans. A red herring to mislead us. I couldn't believe what I was hearing about with regards to Cesare and Lucrezia. They were like two different people. Maybe someone should explain to Jordan that after Cesare died, Lucrezia went into terrible mourning for months... you know, since he's into historical accuracy and all that.

BL.Arinna_1982

But we all know that The Borgias deviated from the history a lot, Alex.

LindaL100

Alex:

I think virtually everyone was probably surprised by just how awesome Francois & Holly's chemistry was maybe including Jordan himself...I have already explained in one of my previous replies about why I think Francois & Holly's amazing chemistry and performances might have exceeded Jordan's prior expectations for Cesare & Lucrezia. They became so popular with fans that they just had to make the show more about Cesare & Lu by S3 Even though Jordan wanted to take inspiration from 'The Godfather', but even in the Godfather, the story was later on mainly focused on Vito's son Michael, and Cesare was Rodrigo's heir, so it only makes sense that the main focus of the story would eventually shift to Cesare in S3, and not just because Cesare became the most popular character on the show. And yes, there's been talks about how Lu had mourned Cesare's death for a long time in reality, and that's how it was depicted in every other adaptation about the Borgia family. In every other show I have watched and novels that I have read about the Borgia family, Lu was always depicted as having a very close and loving relationship with Cesare and was so devastated after he died. So for her to poison Cesare and murder their father in Jordan's book was just atrocious writing on Jordan's part

It definitely has crossed my mind before that Jordan had wrote the book just to upset the fans, I've mentioned many times before that I think Jordan might've became bitter and spiteful by the end of the series, so the book could've been his way of getting back at the fans and everyone else who had forced his hand or influenced him into making decisions & choices he probably didn't want to while working on the series. Or as you said, the book could've been used as a red herring to purposely mislead the fans and viewers, and that he had written a different screenplay for the proposed movie, I hadn't thought of that before, but I suppose that also could be a possibility. I think either way, even if they had made a S4 or that proposed movie, the screenplay that he wrote in his book would've most likely been scrapped anyway, some of the plotlines would've been kept, such as Rodrigo's death and possibly Cesare's too, I think they definitely would have Rodrigo killed by the end, no doubt about that (not sure about Cesare's death though) and have Giuliano della Rovere become the new pope. But some of the other plotlines he wrote, such as having Lu poison both Rodrigo and Cesare would've most likely been changed, I don't think Showtime or the actors would've agreed to that.

BL.Arinna_1982

LindaL100

credit: the_borgias

BL.Arinna_1982

Awwwwwwwww!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Awwww, thanks for that!

Well, I would think that the casting director and Jordan himself would've seen their chemistry when they auditioned and did their screen tests. Maybe they did exceed expectations, but they had to know what they had with Francois and Holly.

Yes, thanks for mentioning that! I keep reminding everyone that The Godfather eventually shifted the focus of the story to Michael Corleone and away from Vito, so the same should've happened with Cesare on The Borgias. Jordan didn't have to make everything Rodrigo-centric.

So you think that Jordan might've written Apocalypse just to tick us all off for shipping Cesare and Lucrezia knowing that season 4 wasn't gonna happen? Yep, the red herring theory has crossed my mind on several occasions. I agree, I think Showtime would've asked him to adjust the script anyway, or throw it out.

BL.Arinna_1982

Well, at least we've had season 3, guys.

LindaL100

Alex:

But the auditions tend to be very different to when you're actually filming on set...and sometimes actors don't audition together, sometimes they meet for the first time when they actually do the table reads or start filming...so perhaps Francois & Holly did not audition together? If that was the case, then Jordan and the casting director would not have known how great their chemistry was going to be until they actually start filming the show. And let's not forget what Francois himself said, he said that it was when he and Holly were filming their first scene together, that Jordan had complained to them that they had too much sexual chemistry together and that it was too romantic between them that's why they argued with Jordan. So they probably didn't audition together...if they had, then Jordan or the casting director certainly would've noticed their chemistry straight away, and not only when they started filming.

Well to a certain extent the same did happen to Cesare in The Borgias, I mean the show did become more about Cesare in S3, he became more of the central character and protagonist by S3 while Rodrigo got demoted to a supporting character. But if they had made a S4, then it would've been natural for Cesare to continue as the main protagonist, even after Rodrigo is killed. Because the story of the Borgia family continued long after Rodrigo died with Cesare becoming the heir. So the mantle would've eventually been passed down to Cesare like it did in the European Canal+ version. There are some rumors that claim that Jordan wanted the show to remain Rodrigo-centric and that he did not want to continue the show after Rodrigo died. That's just a rumor of course...but it could support those speculations about Jordan being spiteful by the end and it could also compound Jordan's contempt and disrespectful attitude towards Cesare and Lucrezia's characters in his book. As outsiders we don't know for sure what Jordan was thinking, we can't be 100% sure what went through his mind at the time, we can only speculate, but our speculations and suspicions are not without merit. I mean, with all the talks about Jordan being upset by the fact that Cesare & Lu became so popular with viewers and overshadowed Rodrigo, and that S3 became more about Cesare and Lu, he could've also been bitter because he had pushed Cesare & Lu's relationship further than he had initially wanted (he was most likely forced to or strongly influenced by others to do so), these may just be fan speculations, but they would explain Jordan's sudden spiteful and negative attitude and treatment towards Cesare & Lu's characters and their relationship in his book. So there's still some weight and justification to these rumors.
The story would've and should've continued with Cesare & Lu after Rodrigo dies, unfortunately we were not able to see it play out on-screen.

BL.Arinna_1982

x

LindaL100

Thanks for sharing the pic Arinna, they're so adorable together, Cesare and Lucrezia are such a compelling couple!

BL.Arinna_1982

They are every couple goals, except the fact that they are siblings. Also, I still think that their sex scene was the most romantic one, I've ever watched.

PhoenixRising

Aww, thanks for all those pics, Arinna! I miss them in season 1. Cesare should've taken Lucrezia's virginity per Rodrigo's request like in Mario Puzo's novel.

Oh yeah, their slow-motion love scene was hot! I just wish they had one more before season 3 ended.

Hi, Linda! Sorry for not replying sooner. I was a little exhausted on Wednesday night, as usual. The night before my day off is when I always crash.

Yes, the auditions can be different, but I think a casting director should have a sense of the chemistry between actors. I think Francois and Holly would've had to have auditioned together since their first scenes in season one are with each other. Cesare and Lucrezia's very first scene is when Lucrezia spies on him with one of his female lovers and then he chases her around the yard until he catches her, and they lie on the grass together gazing into each other's eyes. Come on, if you give them a Twilight moment, what do you expect? And if Jordan complained about their chemistry, why did he even put them in those scenes? Regardless of who is playing the characters, you don't write a scene like that if you wanna avoid any romantic chemistry. It wasn't just Holly and Francois' chemistry, it was the way the scenes were written and the dialogue between them, as Francois said. Why have Cesare and Lucrezia constantly talk about the star crossed lovers Abelard and Heloise? Brother and sister Chris and Cathy in Flowers In The Attic had a similar scene where they lie next to each other on a mattress in the attic while talking about the characters from a romantic Victorian novel they read named Lily and Raymond. Lily and Raymond had to overcome monumental obstacles to find and stand upon the magic place of purple grass, then, tragically, they kill themselves before they realize they’re already on the grass.


I no longer care what Jordan was thinking about. I just think that he was wrong in thinking that everything had to be about Rodrigo. Like you said, the Borgias story in real life continues without Rodrigo and centers around Cesare and Lucrezia. And the Canal+ version did have Cesare end up in North America instead of dying, so it's not like they stuck to the history either.