BL.Arinna_1982

I loved that scene from season 1.

LindaL100

Arinna: thanks for posting all the goodies I love all the scenes with Cesare & Lucrezia!

Alex:

Of course it's possible that they could've made a S4 without Jordan, Showtime could've sacked him and replaced him with someone else, but I think it's more likely that Jordan would've continued to be the showrunner had they made a S4.

Well Jordan never outright said he "didn't like" the Cesare & Lucrezia incest, he said he wanted to portray the siblings as the perfect couple if they weren't siblings, so I think to a certain extent he did like the very close and strong bond that Cesare & Lu had together, after all that's what he wrote right? And that's why Francois and Holliday both argued with Jordan about it, according to Francois, he said Jordan thought Francois & Holly had too much sexual tension together on the set and it was too romantic between them even way back when they filmed their first ever scene together in the pilot, and the pair had to point out to Jordan that the incestuous overtones were already all over his own writing. I think what probably happened is that even from the beginning when Jordan was writing the screenplays for the first season, he did want the siblings' relationship to have incestuous overtones, but maybe when they actually started to film the series, Francois & Holly just had such awesome and electrifying chemistry together that the siblings' incestuous relationship far exceeded Jordan's expectations. There's a difference between writing a screenplay/script and actually acting out what's written on the scripts, sometimes what's written on the scripts do not necessarily translate or work well when it's filmed in live action, and vice versa the opposite can be true. And I think in this case with Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship, I think Jordan still wanted Cesare & Lu's relationship to have incestuous overtones, but I think maybe Francois & Holly's incredible chemistry together just made the incest work a bit too well and then some in live action, and maybe it was just a bit too much than Jordan had expected? You really don't know how a script would play out in live action until you actually start filming it...I can just imagine Francois & Holly totally blowing everyone's minds on set with their awesome chemistry together I think they probably surprised everyone on set, including Jordan
With that said, I think Jordan also wasn't too keen on taking their incestuous relationship so far as he did in S3, that's the impression I get based on all the interviews Francois later did for S3, Cesare & Lu's relationship was already emotionally incestuous in the first 2 seasons before it became physically incestuous too in S3 when the siblings made love together on Lu's wedding night, thus their relationship became fully incestuous both emotionally and physically in S3. I don't think that was Jordan's initial intention, because of what Francois said in an interview, he mentioned that Jordan told them "everything I told you both not to do in the first 2 seasons, do them now" in S3. So that gives me the impression that maybe Jordan initially just wanted the siblings' relationship to be just strictly emotionally incestuous, and not physically...but eventually in the end he finally relented and agreed to take their incestuous relationship to the next level in S3, I doubt that was completely Jordan's own decision to do so, I think he definitely was influenced and maybe even forced into making that decision by other people who worked in production, perhaps it was Francois & Holly themselves, or his co-writer or co-producers, I don't know who. But it certainly seems to me like his hand was forced or he was heavily influenced by other people with regards to making Cesare & Lu's relationship physically incestuous too in S3, I just don't think it was originally his own idea. My suspicions are furthermore compounded by the fact that Jordan completely destroyed this incest couple in his follow-up book, the book just felt like it was written out of spite if you consider the much darker tone of it and all of the inconsistencies that was written in the book and the sloppiness of the writing.

Furthermore, Francois also mentioned in the same interview that during one of their arguments over the incest plotline, Jordan once said to them that there's no evidence to prove that Cesare & Lu actually had an incestuous relationship in real-life. Although technically Jordan was right about that, but for him to use that as an excuse is stupid, because Jordan even created 2 completely fictional characters as love interests for Cesare & Lu in the first 2 seasons (Paolo and Ursula) and about 95% of the writing and plotlines, the characterisations etc in the series were all changed and contradicted the facts. So for him to use the unproven real-life rumors of Cesare & Lu's relationship as an excuse or argument to not make the siblings' relationship physically incestuous even despite the fact that about 95% of the entire series was fictional or contradicted historical facts anyway, it's just stupid of Jordan, and it proves that he had some serious double standards and contradicting thoughts. If he was ok with ignoring many historical facts and even creating completely fictional characters in this series, then why have reservations about Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship? It's confusing and it shows that Jordan had contradicting and conflicting views.
Although the Showtime version created by Jordan is based on the story of the Borgia family, but it's only very loosely based, the vast majority of the writing in this entire series were historically inaccurate and contradicted historical facts, and some were even completely fictional. Unlike the European Canal+ version 'Borgia' which was much more historically accurate.

BL.Arinna_1982

You are very welcome!

PhoenixRising

Okay, I'll reply to your post soon, Linda. I'm sorry for not replying sooner, but I need to read it all and then give you a good reply. Modding three boards takes up a lot of my time.

BL.Arinna_1982

You should find some time!

LindaL100

It's ok Alex I understand, just take your time


credit: Francois Arnaud fan

BL.Arinna_1982

Such a nice picture!

PhoenixRising

Wow, thanks for those links, Linda!

Yeah, I'm sorry for being a slowpoke, Linda. But I promise I'll reply to everything when I can.

And I agree, Jordan has some nerve making a big deal about there being no evidence of an incestuous relationship between Cesare and Lucrezia when he totally manufactured relationships between Lucrezia and a stable boy named Paolo(who didn't exist) and Cesare and Ursula. What happened to Lucrezia's relationship with Perotto, Jordan? And since when did Giovanni Sforza abuse Lucrezia? That marriage got annulled because of the Sforzas betraying the Borgias when King Charles invaded Rome. And is there any evidence that Cesare Borgia has sex with Caterina Sforza? Didn't Cesare also sleep with Sancia? And what happened to Sancia and Joffre?

BL.Arinna_1982

LindaL100

Alex:

My point exactly, Jordan was basically contradicting himself...about 95% of the entire series was basically manufactured and contradicted historical facts, yet he had the nerve to use those unproven Cesare & Lucrezia incest rumors as an excuse? But that just further supports my suspicions that Jordan just wasn't too keen on taking the siblings' incestuous relationship as far as he did in S3 by evolving their relationship into a physically incestuous one too, and that he took their relationship to the next level either because he was forced to or he was strongly influenced by other people. It really seems like to me that Francois and Holliday were both probably more invested in the siblings' incestuous relationship than Jordan himself was, unlike Francois & Holly, Jordan seemed to have had some reservations about pushing Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship too far in the series, but I think taking their relationship to the next level in S3 was the only direction the siblings could go that made sense. Because Cesare & Lu's relationship was continuously growing and evolving throughout the entire series, so it only makes sense for their incestuous relationship to finally become very romantic & passionate both emotionally and physically in S3 it showed the growth of the siblings' relationship throughout the entire series

Arinna: Thanks for posting that video, I've watched it about 100 times already both Francois & Holly explained Cesare & Lu's relationship well, I agree with them that Cesare and Lu's mutual distrust in their father (and in Juan) only pushed the siblings closer together. Of course I don't think that was the only reason why the siblings became so close in the series, there are other reasons too, Rodrigo certainly wasn't the only reason, since Cesare & Lu were already very close from the beginning. But as Cesare & Lu both started to distrust Rodrigo more & more throughout the series, their growing mutual distrust in their father & Juan only helped to push Cesare & Lu closer together

BL.Arinna_1982

I just loved how they understood their characters.

PhoenixRising

Thanks for agreeing with me again, Linda. But I've seen Jordan's other work, and I think he doesn't like the romantic stuff all that much. I think he may have resented having to do some Romeo & Juliet thing with Cesare and Lucrezia because he was more interested in Rodrigo Borgia and making the family look more like The Godfather.

I'll reply to the rest of your comment soon. I'm not feeling well right now.

BL.Arinna_1982

Are you feeling okay now?

PhoenixRising

A little, thanks.

BL.Arinna_1982

x