LindaL100

Alex: Well Juan had always been unstable, jealous and obnoxious and cowardly, he was just more so in season 2...yes the way he killed Paolo was cowardly and brutal, but it just showed how much he despised him and it was an alarming sign of just how destructive Juan was going to spiral out of control.

Arinna: I think Cesare & Lu definitely could've run away together and started a new life in a different country, it was still possible though it would be quite a challenge for the siblings to hide under the radar...but it just wasn't plausible.

Crystal Clear

Hi guys


I haven't fully caught up with every post I missed yet, but I had a quick glance at your replies and I just wanted to post this image, to back up what I was saying about the Juan / Lucrezia / Cesare sibling tension in the show.

(I just want to point out that even though I'll be discussing Juan, it will be in the context of Cesare and Lucrezia's relationship, so it's not off-topic. )


This kind of promotional image is very revealing. Cesare's holding onto Lucrezia and keeping Juan at arm's length. Juan is holding Lucrezia by the neck and literally trying to pull her away from Cesare. Lucrezia is caught in the middle, holding onto Cesare but letting Juan hold her.


I think the dynamics here are all very interesting. A lot of things can be interpreted from it. Think about the episode where Juan has Paolo killed. The episode begins with Lucrezia on very loving terms with Juan and Cesare - she asks for Cesare's blessing to meet Paolo, she walks through the streets proudly with Juan, and he actually looks happy and calm for the very last time in Season 2. Then Cesare quietly warns Lucrezia that Juan is suspicious of her lover, also tenderly telling Juan to hold back from confronting Lucrezia about it... And all hell breaks loose.


2x03 is equally captivating. Cesare spends the whole episode focused on Lucrezia and her child's well-being. He acts more like her husband here than anyone else Lucrezia has ever been romantically linked to. And there's the shocking climactic scene, where she rigs the chandelier to fall on Juan, who had literally just been walking around naked in front of her, almost daring her to fall to ~ The Dark, Depraved Side ~ like he has clearly done... And Juan's actions have brought out the darkness in Lucrezia. This was the beginning of Lucrezia becoming a woman in her own right. She stopped following her brothers and her father, and insisted on doing her own thing.


Say what you will about Juan's shocking behavior, but he ignited a change in Lucrezia that ultimately brought her closer together with Cesare.


And I think Juan hated that. His goal was to make his family feel as miserable and isolated as he had done his entire life. What does it accomplish? His death and his siblings becoming lovers.

BL.Arinna_1982

I agree on Juan actions, brought Lucrezia and Cesare closer together. However, I think they were dancing around the subject even before Juan happened to give the final push. He had noticed that Cesare and Lucrezia are unusually closer than any other members of the family. I mean look at how Cesare acted around her since episode 1. He was there to protect her and even able to kill everyone who dared to do something against her. By the end of season 2, I think even Vanozza noticed how close they are. I was expecting that she would eventually find out something about them and act on it somehow, but there wasn't any development in that matter, which is sad actually.
Juan though, even in his delirium state, he knew something is a bit off with his brother and sister and his actions, led to his demise, were only to confirm his suspicions.


Linda, I'm not saying it could've been easy, but by these times, there were not computers or ID's or something else like this. It was really tough to find a person by then. And everything in the history is proven to be like a "maybe" situation. So, it's not really impossible.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Gwen! Hi, Linda! Don't worry, I'll reply to both of your posts soon. I was busy today so I didn't get here until late. I apologize.

LindaL100

Arinna: I never implied that it was impossible for Cesare & Lu to run away together and start a new life somewhere outside of Italy, of course it's still possible and it wouldn't be easy...but I just don't think that would be plausible, it's just too much of an idealistic ending for such a tragic lovestory about forbidden love between 2 siblings. I think with such a tragic love story like Cesare & Lu's, they would most likely be doomed to have a sad ending...the only reason the siblings had a somewhat happy ending in the Showtime version was because the series was abruptly cut short without a proper conclusion.

sourburst

Forever wanting this show back

BL.Arinna_1982

I'd still prefer that ending than the alternative. At least it showed Cesare finally giving up and making Lucrezia his. And sure Jade, if we've only had some better writing for the final season...

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Yep, Juan was unstable going all the way back to season 1, and I think it was a combination of his being humiliated by King Charles and his jealousy of Cesare, combined with his fear of not being a Borgia by birth, that drove him to a downward spiral. But I think it was after he returned from Spain with syphilis that he really fell apart. That illness only made things worse and eventually drove him into conflict with Cesare and Lucrezia. Notice how both of them tried to kill Juan? Only Cesare succeeded.

Hi, Gwen! Thanks for the pic! That's the season 2 promo, I remember. Yep, it does show that conflict between Juan and his siblings. And don't worry, you're not off topic when it comes to Juan being a catalyst for Cesare and Lucrezia getting together.


Yeah, Lu was on good terms with Juan at one point, like when she saved his life during the battle with King Charles. And they did seem to be okay with each other... until he saw her with Paolo. That pretty much ruined it. You're right, from that moment on, Cesare and Juan take up two different roles in her life. Juan is an antagonistic force which never allows her any peace(his lovemaking keeps her son from sleeping), while Cesare is her source of comfort, safety, and love. So it's probably true that Juan not only brought Cesare and Lucrezia together, as well as bringing about his own death, but he also awakened that darkness in Lucrezia that allowed her to become a killer as well.

BL.Arinna_1982

LindaL100

I agree, I think Juan definitely brought out that dark side of Lu that was previously suppressed, his betrayal and all the hurt that he had caused Lu really made her more vindictive and calculating, her hatred for Juan not only pulled her even closer towards Cesare, but it also completely destroyed any good feelings she previously had towards Juan.
It is widely believed that Cesare is to blame for Juan's demise because he was the one who actually killed Juan after all...but if you think about it, Juan was the one who actually brought about his own demise...his constant humiliating antics that continuously embarrassed the family, and of course he crossed the line when he killed Paolo and then endangered Lu's son and incurring the terrifying wrath of Lu and Cesare as result, Juan had basically signed his own death warrant by that stage. Cesare may have been the one who actually killed Juan, but it was Juan himself who spiralled out of control and was on the path towards self-destruction, he brought his own demise upon himself with his own barbaric and careless actions, Juan had basically pointed a gun to his own head, while Cesare simply pulled the trigger and finally putting Juan out of his own misery.

Thanks for the gif Arinna

here's more:

sourburst

beautiful gif

BL.Arinna_1982

I loved these scenes!

DGSAFDMD

Honestly I sometimes really, really want it to. Then I remember the script they shared after the cancellation and I feel like I should pretend the last season of the Borgias had the good stuff of Borgia (not the ending with Cesare alive in America that's stupid) and I feel better

BL.Arinna_1982

They ended up the show with Cesare in America?

DGSAFDMD

Yeah, Cesare supposedly dies and they do send his things to Lucrezia and stuff and this one man who I don't remember the name of, reads a letter to Lucrezia but then we see a boat arriving in America and Cesare gets off it