Fan Forum
Remember Me?
Register

  New Forum Poll   |     Request a Forum   |     View New Forums

Closed Thread   Post New Thread
 
Forum Affiliates Thread Tools
Old 01-04-2018, 06:05 PM
  #151
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 176,793
Hi, Gwen! Yep, I love that gif too.

Nah, that wasn't too long-winded compared to some of my rants. And I also love the Prince for the same reasons you do, but I do think that Lucrezia's behavior is a bit inconsistent from the beginning to the end, if you know what I mean. At the start of the episode she's swooning over Cesare and couldn't give a damn about her husband, Alfonso. But by the end of the episode she's acting like she's afraid of Cesare and feels trapped by him, and fearing what he'll do to Alfonso. It doesn't make sense. And the fact is that Alfonso is the one who wanted Cesare dead, both on the show and in the history. And you're correct in that all of Lucrezia's actions in season 3(including her seduction of Cesare in her bedroom) all point to her being totally infatuated with her brother more than Alfonso, whom she admits bores her. But that just makes her inconsistent behavior at the end of The Prince and in the Apocalypse script all the more frustrating. Seriously, Jordan?

Oh, and yeah, for a moment you really see how terrified Cesare is when he thinks that Lucrezia drank the poison. Why would she even do that in the first place? And also when Cesare calls Lucreiza a "professional," acknowledging that she's become as skilled in the arts of poisons and potions as Micheletto. Oh, and it is ironic that Juan may not have been too bright at most things, but he certainly was the first one to notice what was going on between Cesare and Lucrezia. Maybe it was the drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4brathan&brucas (View Post)
"Hostile" is the perfect word I would use for the Couples Board, Alex (depending on the thread but yeah, a mix of opinions and people lose their cool)
Yeah, I know what you mean. The weather forecast for the Couples Board is cloudy with a chance of "snowflakes."
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 01-04-2018, 09:23 PM
  #152
Elite Fan

 
Crystal Clear's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 46,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)
Nah, that wasn't too long-winded compared to some of my rants. And I also love the Prince for the same reasons you do, but I do think that Lucrezia's behavior is a bit inconsistent from the beginning to the end, if you know what I mean. At the start of the episode she's swooning over Cesare and couldn't give a damn about her husband, Alfonso. But by the end of the episode she's acting like she's afraid of Cesare and feels trapped by him, and fearing what he'll do to Alfonso. It doesn't make sense. And the fact is that Alfonso is the one who wanted Cesare dead, both on the show and in the history. And you're correct in that all of Lucrezia's actions in season 3(including her seduction of Cesare in her bedroom) all point to her being totally infatuated with her brother more than Alfonso, whom she admits bores her. But that just makes her inconsistent behavior at the end of The Prince and in the Apocalypse script all the more frustrating. Seriously, Jordan?

Very good point about Lucrezia in The Prince. It's true that the characterization is inconsistent and I feel like that happens due to different writers being allocated to write different episodes. They will all have their own versions of the historic events.

In terms of the episode, I think her head was messed up because she knew Cesare was leaving soon, so she was passionate but also angry towards him.

Also, it won't help that a lot of what is taken from history and put into TV adaptations is based on rumors rather than facts, so they're unsure of how to handle her character without getting backlash from viewers for not being accurate enough.

However, I feel as if Lucrezia does have a lot of sides to her. She's in love with Cesare, but she knows society treats incest as taboo, so technically she can't show her true feelings in public and has to adapt to a facade of being the perfect wife to her husband.

...I go back and forth between sympathizing with her and feeling irritated by her.


Quote:
Oh, and yeah, for a moment you really see how terrified Cesare is when he thinks that Lucrezia drank the poison. Why would she even do that in the first place? And also when Cesare calls Lucreiza a "professional," acknowledging that she's become as skilled in the arts of poisons and potions as Micheletto. Oh, and it is ironic that Juan may not have been too bright at most things, but he certainly was the first one to notice what was going on between Cesare and Lucrezia. Maybe it was the drugs.

There was an equal ground built up between Cesare and Lucrezia in Season 3 that I adored. It seemed to come into play following Juan's death - Lucrezia had a very cold reaction that stunned their father and I think changed her in his eyes into someone who could stand up for herself.

The moment where Cesare thinks Lucrezia has drank the poison He knows in that instant what he almost could have lost. Hence, "YOU WILL BE MINE"

My biggest complaint about Season 3 remains as follows: I MISSED DAVID OAKES

Juan was a selfish drunk but feel as if he was deeply misunderstood. I saw it from his father's POV that you will inevitably still think of your son as that innocent boy AND I think Juan became corrupted by the Borgia rise to power in a way that Cesare and Lucrezia did not, partially because he was rumored to have different birth father, thus he will do everything to prove he deserves royalty AS MUCH as his siblings.

And I still love the Juan/Lucrezia dynamic in early Season 2. There was something incestuous about the way he begged Cesare to keep her away from the father of her baby. I stand by my belief that he was jealous of Cesare, for a lot of reasons
__________________
EVER HAS IT BEEN THAT LOVE KNOWS NOT ITS OWN DEPTH UNTIL THE HOUR OF SEPARATION
"I Waited." Jonathan+Nancy. "Our Story Is Epic." LoVe. "I Want You To See Me." Michael+Maria.
"I Came Back For You, My Love." Jin+Mei. "Nobody But You." Julian+Vicky.
Gwen
Crystal Clear is offline  
Old 01-05-2018, 02:01 PM
  #153
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,493
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 01-05-2018, 06:49 PM
  #154
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 176,793
I'll get right back to you on your post, Gwen. I have to work tomorrow and I don't have quite as much time tonight because I have to go to bed early. That, and this damn cold is killing me.
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 01-05-2018, 08:46 PM
  #155
Extreme Fan
 
LindaL100's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4brathan&brucas (View Post)
Very good point about Lucrezia in The Prince. It's true that the characterization is inconsistent and I feel like that happens due to different writers being allocated to write different episodes. They will all have their own versions of the historic events.

In terms of the episode, I think her head was messed up because she knew Cesare was leaving soon, so she was passionate but also angry towards him.

However, I feel as if Lucrezia does have a lot of sides to her. She's in love with Cesare, but she knows society treats incest as taboo, so technically she can't show her true feelings in public and has to adapt to a facade of being the perfect wife to her husband.

...I go back and forth between sympathizing with her and feeling irritated by her.
the last 4 episodes in season 3 were all written by Jordan, so those inconsistencies in the last episode were his fault.

As for Lu, she was definitely conflicted, as was Cesare...they loved each other but both knew that incest was taboo and that society would never accept them together as a couple, so we see the couple often struggling to cope with their feelings for each other and giving into their temptations and all the while putting on a facade for the world to see.

Quote:
My biggest complaint about Season 3 remains as follows: I MISSED DAVID OAKES

And I still love the Juan/Lucrezia dynamic in early Season 2. There was something incestuous about the way he begged Cesare to keep her away from the father of her baby. I stand by my belief that he was jealous of Cesare, for a lot of reasons
personally I never saw any incestuous tone between Juan and Lu, I think Juan definitely loved his sister, but I'm not sure whether his feelings towards his sister was incestuous, it seemed more platonic to me. And even if he did have incestuous feelings towards Lu like Cesare did, it certainly was unrequited. The reason why he wanted Lu to stay away from Paolo was because he was a peasant of lower class to them, Juan was more concerned about preserving the Borgia family's reputation and nobility and did not want his family to associate with people of lower class than themselves, such as Paolo. But I do agree with you that Juan was jealous of Cesare for many reasons, one reason is because Cesare was far more talented and skilled as a fighter & soldier than he was, and I do think he was also jealous of Cesare's close relationship with Lu. Even if Juan only loved Lu as a sister and did not harbour any sort of incestuous feelings for her, I think he probably would've still wanted to have a good sibling relationship with Lu, but he didn't...especially after he killed Paolo, Lu started to hate & despise him and even plotted to kill him. However Juan was always aware of the close bond between Cesare & Lu, he knew Lu was much closer to Cesare and she favoured Cesare and knew that his siblings had an incestuous relationship, I think Juan would've been envious of Cesare & Lu's very close relationship. I believe for a very long time Juan had felt a strong inferiority complex towards Cesare, he always felt inferior to Cesare and insecure, so he was certainly jealous and envious of him for many reasons.

Thanks for the gif Arinna
__________________
My favourite ships:
Catherine & Vincent (Beauty & the Beast) ~ Cesare & Lucrezia (The Borgias) ~ Booth & Brennan (Bones) ~ Clarke & Bellamy (The 100)
Jack & Rose (Titanic) ~ Starlord/Peter & Gamora (GOTG) ~ Jake & Neytiri (Avatar)

Last edited by LindaL100; 01-05-2018 at 11:35 PM
LindaL100 is online now  
Old 01-06-2018, 02:32 PM
  #156
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,493
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 01-07-2018, 05:11 PM
  #157
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 176,793
Hi, Gwen! Hi, Linda! Thanks for the gif, Arinna!

Yeah, it does sometimes seem like they had different writers on different episodes, and there was a lot of inconsistency in season three as far as the characters' behavior. But the showrunner is supposed to keep everyone on the same page, you know? Oh, and you're right, Lucrezia never did like it whenever Cesare had to leave. And I also did like how united Cesare and Lucrezia were after Juan's death, with them on one side and their father on the other. It was like they had both been used enough by their father and now they had formed a united front that consisted of each other at odds with Rodrigo.

Oh, and I don't think that Juan had any incestuous feelings towards Lucrezia, but it did seem like he was possessive of her, especially when Paolo showed up. Perhaps that's why he had such insight into Cesare's feelings for her?
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 01-08-2018, 07:17 AM
  #158
Extreme Fan
 
LindaL100's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,399
Hi Alex, I don't think Juan was ever necessarily "possessive" of Lu per se...certainly not in the same way that Cesare was. I think Juan just became very protective of his family and the Borgia family reputation, especially after Lu's son was born. Juan was a pompous arsehole and a hypocrite, he felt entitled & cocky and as I mentioned before, he was more concerned with preserving the family's reputation by refusing to mingle with peasants and people who were of lower class than himself and his family, even despite the fact that the family had come from nothing themselves. Which is why he hated Paolo for impregnating Lu, I think from Juan's perspective, Paolo; this poor stable boy, had tainted his little sister's innocence and tarnished the family's reputation by planting his offspring into the family, and so Juan killed him, and I think to an extent Juan also detested Lu's son, because he was the bastard child of a poor servant, it would explain why he had so cruelly threatened little Giovanni at his baptism party and further fuelling the wrath of Lu towards him as a result. Juan wasn't "possessive" of Lu at all, nor did he care about Lu's feelings...he was mainly just concerned about himself and the family reputation.

Cesare on the other hand was always very protective of Lu because he loved his dear sister very much and he valued nothing more than to satisfy her and make her happy. Unlike Juan, Cesare never hated Paolo for getting involved with his beloved sister. I think to a certain extent, Cesare respected Paolo and was probably grateful to him for being Lu's only real source of comfort when she married into the abusive & controlling Sforza family. When Lu moved to Pesaro to live with her abusive first husband, she was forced to separate from her fiercely loving & protective Cesare, so she felt isolated, Cesare couldn't be there to protect her, so she sought solace with Paolo, and he became like the substitute confidant who offered love and comfort and protection for Lu while Cesare was so far away. Without Paolo's love and solace, Lu probably would not have survived such hellish and brutal treatment from the abusive Giovanni. Thus I think Cesare would always be grateful and appreciative towards Paolo for taking care of Lu and filling in that void left by Cesare during the period when the close-knit siblings were forced to separate from each other, Paolo was there to comfort and protect Lu when Cesare couldn't. I think that's why Cesare agreed to help Lu & Paolo just shortly before Paolo was killed, Cesare understood the important role that Paolo played in Lu's life while she was trapped in that hellish household. Whereas Juan on the other hand, only saw Paolo as a filthy peasant and a threat to the family that needed to be eliminated...it only further proves how much Juan actually did not care about Lu or her feelings, nor did he understand her. Juan was like the exact opposite of Cesare when it came to Lu, in comparison, Cesare always cared very deeply for Lu and her feelings, and he understood her better than anyone.
While Cesare & Lu have always been very close, but I think Juan's death only brought the siblings even closer together than ever.
__________________
My favourite ships:
Catherine & Vincent (Beauty & the Beast) ~ Cesare & Lucrezia (The Borgias) ~ Booth & Brennan (Bones) ~ Clarke & Bellamy (The 100)
Jack & Rose (Titanic) ~ Starlord/Peter & Gamora (GOTG) ~ Jake & Neytiri (Avatar)
LindaL100 is online now  
Old 01-08-2018, 02:54 PM
  #159
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,493
They were united even before Juan. However, I think that was one of their final pushes.
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 01-09-2018, 04:56 PM
  #160
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 176,793
Hi, Linda!

Well, just in that one episode where he killed Paolo, which I admit is a bit out of character. Sure, he hated Paolo for defiling his sister, which is probably how he saw it. But I do think that hanging him was a bit of overkill on Juan's part. He seemed very sloppy when it came to killing in season one, like what happened with Djem, and he was overwhelmed by King Charles near the end of the season, so I guess he used Paolo as a way of venting his anger and frustration. And of course, Juan's own insecurity was that he wasn't Rodrigo's son, but the son of Vanozza's other husband, who was a commoner. But I do find it convenient that he sought to preserve the Borgia family, but really didn't care about stepping all over his brother and sister in the process, threatening Lucrezia's own child, and threatening Cesare himself. But that's a topic for the David/Juan thread. Man, I do drift off topic at times.


Yes, I agree that Juan's death brought Cesare and Lucrezia closer together. It cemented them as an alliance against Juan's actions against them, and gave them strength to draw from because of how they always felt helpless before their father's own plans for them, where they had little say in anything. I guess having sex with each other was just as much an act of rebellion as an act of love.
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 01-10-2018, 01:55 PM
  #161
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,493
Juan really brought them closer together, however he also was the one who suspected that they are in some intimate relationship even before season two. Remember, when he was in delirium, he even thought that the little Giovanni is Cesare's son.
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 01-11-2018, 02:14 AM
  #162
Extreme Fan
 
LindaL100's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,399
Alex:

Well I think there were definitely other reasons that drove Juan to kill Paolo, by season 2 Juan had become increasingly unstable and destructive and filled with anger and bitterness for all sorts of reasons, but I think his detest for Paolo was probably still the main reason that compelled him to kill Paolo. As for the reason why he was more brutal and forceful in his killing of Paolo compared to season 1 is probably because he was still quite inexperienced in S1, but by S2 he had grown more experienced and confident in combat, and as I said, he also became increasingly unstable and frustrated. Another reason why he struggled to kill Prince Djem in S1 is because Djem was Juan's friend, someone that Juan cared about, and killing Djem was originally not Juan's own decision, it was Rodrigo's. However Paolo was not a friend, Juan hated him, and killing Paolo was Juan's own decision.

I do find it rather ironic that Juan was so concerned about preserving the family's reputation, and yet he himself would often go out of his way to humiliate the family, with his alcohol addiction and constant flirting and fooling around with women and prostitutes, his drug use and his many other irresponsible and immature antics that often embarrassed the family, it only further proves just how big of a hypocrite Juan was. And let's not forget his brutal torture of Caterina Sforza's son, Cesare had always thought Juan was unstable and unsuitable to lead the Papal armies with his lack of skills and constant humiliating antics. Throughout the first 2 seasons, Cesare had shown great tolerance towards Juan, perhaps more than Juan deserved, but I think killing Paolo and endangering Lu's son was probably the last straw for Cesare, it got to the point when Juan was completely out of control and Cesare just couldn't tolerate him anymore, Juan had gone too far, had humiliated the family too many times, and thus he killed him. Lu had grown to hate Juan by that point so she completely and fully supported Cesare in killing Juan. I get the impression that Cesare & Lu were always unified, they were always in league with each other and very supportive of each other. The thing is there's very few people in their world that they could trust, they could not even trust their own father or siblings, the only people they could completely and fully trust were each other, it's as if the siblings felt that it was always the 2 of them together against the world. It's no wonder that Cesare & Lu always had a very close bond and why the siblings loved each other unconditionally I definitely think Juan's death really pulled Cesare & Lu even closer together, not only because they loved each other, but also because of their mutual detest for Juan.

Arinna: I agree, Juan definitely had his suspicions about Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship, though he didn't have any concrete proof.
__________________
My favourite ships:
Catherine & Vincent (Beauty & the Beast) ~ Cesare & Lucrezia (The Borgias) ~ Booth & Brennan (Bones) ~ Clarke & Bellamy (The 100)
Jack & Rose (Titanic) ~ Starlord/Peter & Gamora (GOTG) ~ Jake & Neytiri (Avatar)
LindaL100 is online now  
Old 01-11-2018, 01:56 PM
  #163
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,493
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Old 01-11-2018, 05:52 PM
  #164
Fan Forum Star

 
PhoenixRising's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 176,793
Oh, I love that scene, Arinna! That's the scene I wished was a "morning after" scene following a night of incestuous lovemaking by Cesare and Lucrezia.

I love how playful Lucrezia is even with Cesare's hand on her throat, knowing that Cesare was only reacting in case it were an assassin, but after realizing that it was Lucrezia he calms down and relents. Lucrezia's like, "I totally own you."

Hey, Linda! Oh, I'm aware that Juan had other reasons for killing Paolo, but at the time he killed him he hadn't become as unstable as he'd be later on after syphilis, his leg injury infection, and his addiction to opium took hold. And while you may be right, I think it's a bit cowardly on Juan's part to kill an unarmed man like Paolo who is a stable boy with no combat skills or experience, especially when Juan had help and Paolo was alone. So I do agree that Juan had become more aggressive in season 2, but it was perhaps his reaction to being so humbled by King Charles in season 1 and made to feel inferior to Cesare.

Yep, Juan also killed Paolo to preserve the honor and dignity of the family, but it was he himself who dishonored the family with his behavior and his many embarrassing failures. That was Cesare's main reason for killing Juan, although Juan's own resentment of Cesare and his threats against him probably also played a role. It did seem like Alfonso had become Juan's replacement in that area, you know? At first it was Juan who felt Cesare was a rival, and then it was Alfonso. And didn't Lucrezia compare Alfonso to Juan at one point? Which again, makes her behavior at the end of The Prince a bit perplexing.

But yes, I believe it was a combination of rebellion against their father's machinations and their mutual hatred of Juan that drew Cesare and Lucrezia closer together, although it was probably Juan's threats against her child that sealed the deal and united them against him. As well as the "ten more sons" incident that permanently divided the two brothers, with Juan swearing that Cesare would never wear his armor and end his life in a Cardinal's robes.
__________________
In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
PhoenixRising is offline  
Old 01-12-2018, 02:35 PM
  #165
Fan Forum Star

 
BL.Arinna_1982's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 118,493
I often wonder if they didn't run away for real.
__________________
Halo - Robsten - Edward/Bella - Paire
Love is a feeling...
BL.Arinna_1982 is offline  
Closed Thread   Post New Thread

Bookmarks


Forum Affiliates
Lotte Verbeek, Holliday Grainger Source
Thread Tools



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:04 AM.

Fan Forum  |  Contact Us  |  Fan Forum on Twitter  |  Fan Forum on Facebook  |  Archive  |  Top

Powered by vBulletin, Copyright © 2000-2018.

Copyright © 1998-2018, Fan Forum.


TEST