LindaL100

I definitely think Francois & Holly and their amazing chemistry together were the main reasons their relationship in the series was eventually taken to that incestuous level in S3, they argued with Jordan way back in S1 by pointing out to him the fact that it was all over his writing, and their chemistry together was undeniable, Jordan couldn't just ignore it. Cesare & Lucrezia were a couple that demanded to be shipped and many viewers and fans alike fell in love with this couple because of the brilliant performances by Francois & Holly and their incredible chemistry together You gotta give the viewers what they want, but also it would've been such a waste if they hadn't gone down that route with Cesare & Lu, many people love this couple mainly because of the unbelievable chemistry between Francois & Holly and it's because of Francois & Holly's brilliant performances & chemistry that really convinced us that they're a couple that was meant to be together and that it was inevitable for their relationship to become incestuous eventually And like I said before, even though the incestuous undertones were all over Jordan's writing and he did gave this couple quite a lot of insanely romantic and brilliant dialogues together in the series, but it really was Francois & Holly who really brought the magic of this couple to life on-screen and really made us all fall in love with this couple Jordan would've been a complete fool if he had not utilized Francois & Holly's awesome chemistry together to its full potential.

LOL Alfonso was definitely hairy, too hairy for a teenage child, I've never in my life seen an actual young teenager with so much hair like Alfonso does lol, I think the actor was too old to play the character, Alfonso was suppose to look very young like an actual teenager, but the actor who played him looked like he was already well in his late 20s at least.
And yes I am aware that the real Giovanni Sforza was much younger than he was depicted in the series and he was not abusive, I know a lot of the inconsistencies this series have with actual facts. Which is quite understandable because even though this series is loosely based on a real historical family, but at the end of the day it's still a fictional series and not a documentary, so there's bound to be some things in this series that are inconsistent with facts and some things that are just completely fabricated (like Paolo's character). And I'm only referring to the writing and the events that happened in this series in particular.

And have you noticed that both Lucrezia's husbands in the series are very flawed compared to Cesare? They're both ugly (to me anyway), and one was an abusive and vile monster who abused & raped Lu daily, and the other one was so weak, wimpy, spineless and hopeless like a little naive child. I think the writers did it on purpose to highlight to the viewers that there is NO other man who could match up to Cesare for Lucrezia I mean, Cesare is always kind, gentle, compassionate, loving and caring towards his sister, he thinks the world of her and dotes on her and would do anything for her even kill for her, and he would do anything to protect her Cesare is in every sense of the word, the 'perfect' match for Lucrezia, the only problem is that they are siblings, so by law and by the eyes of god, they could not be together, it was forbidden love. So Lucrezia looked elsewhere and tried to find those exact same qualities that Cesare possesses in a husband, she wanted a husband who would love her and care, cherish and be so devoted to her as Cesare does, but all of them have fallen short. Firstly Giovanni was the complete opposite of Cesare, he did not care about Lu at all, he merely treated her like a piece of meat, abused her and raped her constantly, he did not respect her at all. Then again marrying her off to this vile monster was her father's idea not Lucrezia's own. Then there's Alfonso whom Lucrezia had chosen herself, although he did love her and care about her and treated her so much better than Giovanni ever did, but he was too weak and spineless and hopeless that he was incapable of protecting & standing up for her and her son, unlike Cesare, so again, another husband who has fallen short of Lu's expectations, hence why she told Cesare in the finale that she's become tired of Alfonso.
And I think this is why Jordan described Cesare & Lu as the perfect couple if they were not siblings, because that's so true, Cesare is the perfect man for Lu, he has all the qualities that she looks for in a husband, and she too loves Cesare very much. The only real problem that was preventing them from being together is the fact that they're siblings if they were not siblngs, can you imagine just how perfect their relationship would've been? This couple are already so beautiful together (tragic but beautiful), can you imagine just how even more magical & perfect their relationship would've been like if they could have actually married each other and have children together and have a peaceful and happily ever after ending?

I think it's obvious that Jordan wanted the series to remain Rodrigo-centric, even though the series eventually became more about Cesare and Lucrezia in S3 than Rodrigo...however, I think Jordan wouldn't have wanted to continue the series without Rodrigo, despite the fact that in reality, both Cesare & Lu had outlived their father, so the story should've continued with them as the main focus. And as you mentioned before Alex, Jordan himself mentioned that he took a lot of inspiration from The Godfather written by Mario Puzo, yet Jordan seemingly ignored the fact that in The Godfather, the main focus of the story eventually shifted from Vito to his son Michael after Vito's death. So if Jordan had remained true to his own words, then he would've had no problems with the series continuing with Cesare at the helm after Rodrigo's death. But then again, Jordan ignored at least 95% of reality when he made this series anyway, this show is full of fiction and storylines that contradict historical facts, so it wouldn't exactly surprise me if Jordan wanted the show to remain Rodrigo-centric.

Well I do hope a thread for Rodrigo & Vanozza will be created eventually, but please do take your time with it I don't want to look like I'm rushing or "forcing" you to create one, it's just that I like them too and they deserve their own thread. I would help you myself, but I'm still new to this forum so I'm still a bit unfamiliar with how some of the things are done here, sorry

BL.Arinna_1982

Aw, you don't have to be sorry! You're not doing anything wrong!



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PhoenixRising

Awww, don't worry, Linda. You're doing just fine. You're not rushing me or doing anything wrong, okay? We used to make new threads here a lot faster when we had more people around, but now that it's just us it takes a bit longer because most of the people who did arts and graphics for us are gone. I've never been good at that stuff, so we're gonna see if we can get one of our friends to do it. But a Rodrigo/Vanozza thread sounds great. I'm actually surprised we don't have one already.


Yep, I'm sure that Holly and Francois weren't the only ones telling Jordan that Cesare and Lucrezia's chemistry and storyline were too good to pass up. I remember the promos for Siblings which said, "the moment you've been waiting for." Obviously Showtime wasn't oblivious to the fans either.

The actor who played Alfonso was also in a BBC show called "Skins" if I'm not mistaken. He actually is young, but that facial hair ages him. The hair everywhere else is just unsightly. And the only reason that I mention how Giovanni Sforza was in real life is because I wonder why the decision was made to have Giovanni be older on the show and to be abusive to Lucrezia. It certainly did push her character to become more ruthless. And yes, I've noticed that the men Lucrezia married are far and away inferior to Cesare. Meanwhile, Cesare gets with the boring Ursula, the clever and manipulative Caterina Sforza, and his French wife, Charlotte d'Albret, who is so cool that she not only has sex with him before they're married, she's well aware that he's in love with someone else and is totally okay with it. She even tells him that she loves him more for trying to spare her feelings. Where are these women like Charlotte? Many people have noted that in both of their respective relationships, Cesare and Lucrezia are always searching for a replacement to stand in for the other because they know they can't be with each other as lovers... at least not in public. Yep, that probably is why Jordan said that about them, how they'd be perfect spouses but for the fact that they're siblings.

Well, even back then having children by incest was frowned upon. I think it would've been better if Lucrezia had had children by her husbands and then raised them with Cesare. Cesare and Lucrezia having their own children might be a bit risky, genetically. But again, I do agree that if Jordan used The Godfather as inspiration, he of all people should know that Vito doesn't remain the main character for long, and that Michael is the true protagonist of the story.

Lovely pics, Arinna!

LindaL100

Yeah all the guys that Lucrezia has hooked up with in the series were overall inferior to Cesare and I definitely think that was done on purpose to emphasize the notion that Cesare was the perfect and the best man for Lucrezia and no one else could ever match up. Of course that's not to say that Cesare was "flawless" either, which is not true, Cesare himself also has flaws and he basically turned into a ruthless serial killer later in the series, so as a person he still has his own flaws. But in terms of being a good husband or a lover, then Cesare is the ideal man, he is so loving and caring, and compassionate, devoted and protective of the woman he loves. Wouldn't you want a husband or a lover like Cesare? Someone who would be so loving and caring, compassionate, protective and so devoted to you like Cesare is so devoted and loving towards his beloved Lucrezia? Although he did become very possessive of Lu in the end of the series though. I love how Cesare is so different when he is with Lucrezia, when he is with other people, he's usually cold, distant, very ruthless and intimidating and dangerous like a fierce wolf. But whenever he is alone with his beloved sister, it's like he turns into a different man, he mellows and is so loving and compassionate and gentle with her like a loving little puppy lolit's because of his deep love for Lu that she has this affect on him, she softens him and she brings out the best in him

I actually would've preferred if Cesare and Lucrezia had children of their own together and then just pretended that those kids belonged to Lu and her husband's Remember that the story is suppose to be set during the Renaissance period in the late 14th to 15th century in Rome, life was very primitive during this ancient period and science was very basic and not advanced nor sophisticated unlike it is now. They did not have forensics or DNA testing back then, so it was impossible to determine with any level of accuracy who was the biological father of a child, unless a woman has only had sex with one man during a considerable period of time, since DNA testing did not exist at the time, paternity tests were also impossible to do. So without DNA testing and advanced forensics, it was very easy for people to get away with a lot of crimes during that era, and it was hard to determine the paternity of children, unless of course like I said, a woman only had sex with one man during a certain period of time. So Cesare and Lu could have gotten away with inbreeding and having incest kids of their own together without anyone else knowing the kids were Cesare's, thus it also would've been possible for them to just pass off their incest children as Lu's husband's instead, and everyone would've been none the wiser.
My ideal scenario is for Cesare & Lucrezia to secretly have cute little incest babies together and then like Cesare himself had joked to Lu in S2, they run away together, change their names and start a new life far away from Rome so no one would know their real identities and live out the rest of their lives together in peace & obscurity as a married couple!

We've already discussed her husbands, so let's discuss Lu's other 2 lovers (besides Cesare) in the series, firstly Paolo, I think he was a good man, he loved Lu and cared about her very much and he was brave, he would've done anything to protect her and their son, he would even die for them, and he did die sadly. The only thing he lacked was social status and money, he was a poor servant so he would not have been able to support Lu and their child financially, and he was useless to the Borgia family from a political and diplomatic standpoint because he was poor. If Paolo was of nobility, then I think he and Lu's relationship probably could've worked. And then there's that painter in S2 who was the younger brother of one of Lu's potential suitors (I forgot his name), we didn't see very much of him so I feel we have not learned enough about him, but he too lacked the prestige and political power that the family (or rather Rodrigo) sought, since he was the second son, it was his older brother who held some power and prestige, not him. And unlike Giovanni and Alfonso, both Paolo and the younger painter brother were handsome, like Cesare However I have doubts whether this younger brother would've been able to love and care and be devoted to Lu and her son in the same way that Cesare is, their brief affair in S2 was just based on a mere crush and not real love.
And I totally agree with the people who think that Cesare and Lu tried to find replacements for each other in their other relationships, that's basically my point in my previous reply, I mentioned before that because they're siblings it was forbidden love, they could not be together, so Lucrezia tried to find the exact same qualities that Cesare possesses in other men. The siblings love each other so much but because they both knew they could not be together, they could only try to find love elsewhere with other people, and sure they both have had relationships with other people in the series, but none of them could really match up to the deep love that the siblings have for each other but since they could not publicly be together, they could only love each other in secret, and make do with what they could get elsewhere for the sake of public reputation of the family.

And I agree with you about Cesare's wife Charlotte, I like her too, she's cool and so understanding, she knew that Cesare already loves another woman and she was perfectly ok with that, because as Cesare said, love was not an issue in their marriage, so I get the impression that Charlotte does not love Cesare either, I think she mainly just wants children, so as long as Cesare can give her a child, they both would be happy in their marriage. They both definitely desire each other and are fond of each other, but the feeling is not true love, yet they both still respect each other and Charlotte respects Cesare's feelings. She's so much better than that Ursula who I think was selfish and indecisive, I do not like Ursula at all.

Well during ancient times incest was very common in some parts of the world, such as in countries like Egypt, in countries like Egypt incest and inbreeding was actually considered 'tradition' especially among nobility and the higher class society. It was common for siblings in nobility to marry each other and have incest kids together, in fact many of the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs were either products of incest themselves or they also married their own siblings in order to preserve the royal bloodline. Incest is also very commonly depicted in many cultural mythologies such as in Greek mythology, Zeus married his own sister Hera and had several children with her, he also fathered a daughter with one of his other sisters Demeter etc. But in certain other countries like Italy and especially in the city of Rome where it is the heart of Christianity, incest was very much frowned upon and condemned and prohibited. So it really just depends on which parts of the world you're referring to, some countries did permit incest & inbreeding during ancient times and some didn't. But what I find ironic is that despite the fact that Rome is the heart of Christianity and the very religious Roman people were so against incest, yet they adopted most of Greek mythology, including all the incestuous aspects of it. In their Roman mythology that's derived from Greek mythology, Jupiter still married his own sister Juno and still had several kids with her, and the Roman people were ok with that? Even now in this day and age, many people are still fascinated and largely accepting of incest depicted in fiction and mythologies, yet are strongly against incest in real-life. Maybe that's due to the fact that society's attitudes & opinions overall towards fiction and fictional works are different to their attitudes towards reality.

Thanks for sharing that cute pic Arinna

BL.Arinna_1982

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LindaL100

as always thanks for posting all the great pics of this couple Arinna!

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! I'm sorry for not replying yesterday. I'm off work today and tomorrow, and yesterday I was worn out from work because I get up every morning at 4am. I nodded off last night and didn't wake up until a little while ago. I'm gonna read you're whole post and reply later. I just woke up.

BL.Arinna_1982

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LindaL100

Alex: That's ok, just take your time...most of my posts about Cesare & Lucrezia tend to be very long rants I'm sure some people find them a bit tedious to read, so it's understandable if it takes a bit longer for people to reply

Arinna: as always thank you for posting all the awesome pics of Cesare & Lu that kissing scene in the "Siblings" ep is no doubt one of the best scenes in the series, it's so brilliantly written and acted by Francois & Holly! You can just see and feel the overwhelming passion and yearning the siblings had for each other during that kiss!

LindaL100

The scene that started it all



it's the very first scene Cesare & Lucrezia had together in the series, the very first scene that Francois & Holly filmed together, and it's also the very first scene that made so many fans fall in love with this beautiful couple in the first place! this is without a doubt one of the best scenes in the series ever!

PhoenixRising

It's not tedious, Linda. But I'm modding two boards, posting on third board I hope to mod, in a posting challenge on a fourth board, and helping Arinna out on her other board. I'm trying to keep up as best I can.

Thanks for that vid, Linda!

Let me answer part of your post and I'll try and get to the rest later.

Well, I think Jordan said that Cesare and Lucrezia's love interests were basically replacement companions for each other. No one expects either of them to be flawless, but they do complete each other in ways that no one else could. The ruthlessness that they both demonstrate later on is more the result of how their father kept manipulating both of them to achieve his own ends, keeping Cesare in the College of Cardinals to strengthen his position in the Vatican while putting Juan in command of the Papal army, and marrying Lucrezia off to one suitor after another to make alliances. It was really frustrating for both of them and that's probably why they found solace in each other. And yes, Cesare does seem different when he's with Lucrezia, and vice versa. They both tend to get very hard when they're off on their own. Although Cesare did show some of his warmer self to Charlotte d'Albret. Lucrezia with Alfonso... I don't know. She was never like her normal self around Alfonso. But yeah, whenever Ces and Lu are around each other they get all cutesy. She just lets him manhandle her and she loves it, fluttering her eyes all the time.

LindaL100

I agree with you, they may not be flawless people (then again no one is actually "flawless", everyone has flaws of their own) but they do 'complete' each other and love each other in ways that no one else could, hence why they are described as the perfect couple if they weren't siblings.
I remember both Francois & Holly mentioned in their interviews with Showtime that there's not many people in their world that they could trust, and that's true, they could not even trust their own father because he's so manipulative and ambitious and he was so preoccupied with his own ambitions and goals that he never truly cared about his own children and their needs and feelings. His children and the kind of people they had become in the series were the results largely due to how much Rodrigo had manipulated and used his own children for his own personal gain. Cesare and Lucrezia already had a very close special bond together as siblings since they were young, but because of all their father's manipulations, Cesare and Lu also found solace, comfort and trust in each other and over time their connection only grew stronger and more incestuous. So if you think about it more, Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship was also largely caused by Rodrigo himself, maybe not directly, but at least indirectly, he played a part in their incestuous relationship. Rodrigo constantly manipulated Cesare and Lu and completely disregarded their feelings and wishes for his own personal goals, to the point that they both started to mistrust him, and through their shared mistrust in their father, it only pushed the siblings closer together.
The couple certainly could not trust Juan either for obvious reasons, their youngest brother Joffre moved far away after he married Sancia so he was literally absent from their lives afterwards, and Joffre was too eager to please their father anyway, so he probably wouldn't have been very trustworthy to the couple either. And although they do trust their mother Vanozza, but she was powerless and lacked social standing, so she had very little influence and was largely incapable of helping the couple when it came to their father. So even within the Borgia family itself, there's very few people Cesare & Lu could trust...it seems besides each other, the only other person in the family they could trust is their mother, but like I said, their mother was powerless and lacked influence and social status.

And I think how both Cesare and Lu behave differently when they're together compared to how they behave with other people is just another testament to the close relationship and bond they have with each other Cesare only softens when he is with Lucrezia, only she is able to bring out the best in him and all the warmth, compassionate and empathetic side of him, only she can truly humanize him. While only Cesare is able to bring out a certain side of Lu that she would never willingly let anyone else see. Ever since Lu's disastrous and abusive marriage to Giovanni Sforza, Lu became more mature and wary and she also hardened as a person, her attitude and outlook on life changed, she vowed to herself to never let herself be abused like that ever again, she wanted to be the one in control, the dominating one in a relationship. And that was her attitude towards men and relationships in general after her first marriage. And yet whenever she is with Cesare, she becomes so submissive to him and she let's him manhandle her, it's like Cesare is the only person in the world whom Lu allows herself to be controlled by. Have you noticed that Cesare is the only person who has ever touched or grabbed Lu's neck in the series? Ok so Prince Raphael of Aragon did touch her neck once during a confrontation with Lu in ep 3x07, but it was an offensive attack on Lu from Raphael and she was clearly angry that he had touched her neck. But Cesare is the only person in the series who actually has Lu's permission to touch her neck and besides Raphael, Cesare was the only other person who has ever touched Lu's neck in the series and he virtually always touched Lu's neck in the series, sometimes he touched her neck tenderly and sometimes he literally grabbed her neck forcefully in a possessive way, and Lu was always fine with Cesare being physical with her and manhandling her, like you said, she always seemed content and happy whenever Cesare touches her neck or manhandles her like she actually enjoys it Cesare was the only person Lu was willing to show her submissive side to. She would never willingly let any man or any person control her, dominate her, abuse her or physically manhandle her...except Cesare, and that proves that he has a special place in her heart she only allows Cesare to dominate her and touch her neck

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda! Okay, I'm gonna reply to some of your other posts.

Oh, I would love for Cesare and Lucrezia to just run off together and start a family. But being the Pope's children, incest would be greatly frowned upon... even though Ascanio Sforza slept with his cousin. But while you're right in that back in those days incest might've occurred with more frequency, it would more than likely happen among royal families. But being the children of the Pope might make it more complicated. Impropriety would create scandal that the Papacy couldn't afford. So whatever they did they'd have to do it in secret. Yeah, it could've been done, but there's still a slight risk of birth defects with children born of incest, but only to a slightly higher degree. Could they have gotten away with it? Depends on where they lived. In Rome it would be much more difficult to keep a secret like that, so they'd have to move away somewhere... maybe to France.

Yeah, Joffre was practically wiped out of existence after he married Sancia. I think in the history, Sancia had an affair with Cesare, but that's another story. But Cesare could take Lucrezia with him to France and rule his empire from there, since that's where his army is from. He, Charlotte, and Lucrezia could all live happily ever after there. That way they could easily explain any children that might come about.

And you're correct in that Rodrigo was more than likely to blame for all of it, making Cesare and Lucrezia into pawns and putting them in a horrible position where they had no one else to turn to but each other. It does reflect on the way they interact with each other, which is far more tender and loving than with anyone else.

Good call about the neck grabbing. That's right, Lucrezia does let Cesare grab her neck without feeling endangered. She let him push her against a wall when he told her how he'd cut out the heart of an ungallant husband for her, remember? She just grinned at him even though he had her back against the wall. It's like a game for both of them, neither ever feeling like they're in any danger.

LindaL100

Like Lucrezia said, the whole of Italy were already gossiping about the siblings, she knew about the rumors, even Alfonso said there were a lot of whispering and gossiping about the siblings in the Vatican itself when he tried to challenge Cesare in a duel in ep 3x09. So people in Italy already suspected that the relationship between Cesare and Lu was incestuous, even though the couple tried to keep their relationship a secret. And Alfonso already knew about their relationship, so it would've been more dangerous for the couple in Rome the longer they continued their secret affair.
And it's true that there would always be chances of defects in incest children, but not always, and there's plenty of children who still develop health defects even when they're born to normal non-incestuous parents, so without DNA testing, no one else would know for sure. Cesare and Lu could still be able to have kids with each other without other people knowing but it would be tricky to do. To insure that Cesare's the father without DNA testing, Cesare would have to be the only man whom Lu has sex with for a certain period of time, and that would be difficult for the couple if her husband were still alive and living in Rome with them, but it's still achievable.

It would be much easier for the couple if Cesare & Lucrezia just run away together, they were clearly not happy with the kind of life they were forced to live by their father anyway, but they could not defy their father so they could only do whatever their father tells them to do, follow his every order and fulfill his every ambition. Rodrigo really ruined his own children and their lives with all of his selfish ambitions, like you said, he used his own children as pawns for his own personal gains. Cesare & Lucrezia should've escaped, run away together far away from Rome and Italy and far away from their toxic father, I don't think France would've been a good place to ran away to though, because of Cesare's wife Charlotte. She seems like a smart woman, if Cesare were to bring Lu to France to live with them, I think Charlotte would definitely find out about their relationship and expose them. Even though Charlotte seemed like a good person and she respected Cesare and his feelings and she accepted the fact that he was already in love with someone else, but if Charlotte were to find out that he was having a passionate affair with his own sister and the woman he loved was his sister, I don't think Charlotte would just keep quiet about it, I think she would most likely expose the siblings incestuous affair, it would've been easy for Charlotte to discover their secret affair. So moving to France would've been dangerous, I think anywhere in Europe would've been dangerous for the siblings because everyone in Europe knows about the Borgia family. If the couple wanted to run away somewhere far away where no one would know them or someplace where they're much less recognisable, then they should move to a place outside of Europe say America or somewhere in Asia, but preferably in America, they should start a new life there and change their identities It kinda reminds me of what happened in the end of the European version when Cesare faked his own death and escaped to America, makes me wish he had taken Lucrezia with him

I'm not sure about Cesare, I do know that in history Juan did indeed had an affair with Sancia, that's why when Juan was killed some people suspected that it might've been Joffre who killed him out of jealousy because of the affair. Although it was still more widely speculated that Cesare killed Juan.

BL.Arinna_1982

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