BL.Arinna_1982

See, Alex doesn't know as much as I do, because he's not in Twitter as much as I am these days. And actually, that's the same campaign that Christine started, Alex. It's not dead at all. People keep fighting for our show, but it still doesn't work.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda!

I remember the campaign that Christine started, Arinna. I was the one who came up with the idea to send cans of sardines to Showtime in protest, remember? It even made the news and I never got credit for it. But after Christine passed away in November 2015, I assumed that the campaign ended. And there's been no sign of anyone even trying to bring the show back to Showtime. I guess there's always a chance, but I'm not holding my breath.

Well, the ridiculous demands that Jordan made were to scrap season 4 and do a two hour movie, The Borgias Apocalypse. Now, apparently Showtime refused to accommodate him for budgetary reasons, which I could never understand. A ten episode fourth season would cost less than Jordan's proposed two hour movie? What the hell was he gonna film, the actual apocalypse? The reason that Jordan proposed his two hour movie to close out the series instead of a fourth and final season as he and Showtime promised back when the show first began, was that he "didn't have material" for a full fourth season. Really? With everything that happens to the Borgia family following the fall of Forli, the capture of Caterina Sforza, and the death of Alfonso of Aragon, he didn't have the material? Any historian would laugh themselves silly. So the events involving Lucrezia's third marriage, Cesare's campaign against the remaining houses of the Romagna, Rodrigo's death and the rise of Giuliano della Rovere to the papacy, Cesare's imprisonment, escape, and eventual death, can't fill ten freaking episodes? So does that mean that Showtime would've been okay with another ten episode season, but because Jordan proposed his "Apocalypse" movie instead, Showtime decided to pull the plug? Something's definitely fishy here, don't you think?

So you think that Jordan purposefully tanked season 4 over the direction that season 3 went? That's possible if you consider that the Apocalypse script showed several scenes of Rodrigo asking for forgiveness on his death bed and for someone to take his confession, and by the end of the movie it's shown that Rodrigo is already dead and in hell because he died before someone could take his final confession, which is only slightly less ludicrous as the end of Borgia: Faith and Fear, where Cesare faked his death and landed on the shores of America to begin again. When Jordan claimed not to have enough material for a fourth season, it's possible he was referring to the fact that Rodrigo dies years before Cesare and Lucrezia, and that any fourth and final season would entail Jeremy Irons having his character killed off halfway through. If Jordan did want The Borgias to be Rodrigo-centric, maybe that is the reason. And his treatment of Cesare and Lucrezia in that script might also make sense, but I can't believe that anyone would destroy their own show for such a petty reason. If that is the reason, then Jordan is a total in my opinion.

And that's another good point... by the time we get to season 3, Cesare and Lucrezia have taken center stage and Rodrigo's story has mostly taken a back seat. Jordan came up with that ludicrous storyline involving him and Bianca Gonzaga to give Rodrigo more to do that season, but it was really unnecessary. This show is supposed to be about The Borgias, not just Rodrigo. Jordan himself mentioned that he was inspired by The Godfather when he was making this series, and didn't The Godfather have Vito Corleone die at the end of the first movie, and Michael taking over as the main character from then on?

LindaL100

I agree, I think all of this talk about how Jordan "ran out of ideas" for a full 4th season is bull, there were plenty of materials to work with such as Rodrigo's death, Cesare's fall, Lucrezia's 3rd marriage etc. heck he could even make up some more of his own ideas in between. About 95% of everything that happened in the series were fiction or inconsistent with real facts anyway...even though I prefer this version much better than the European version 'Borgia' overall, but at least the European version was a lot more historically accurate than this series. I'm not sure if Jordan himself actually said he ran out of ideas, it's just something I read, but if it's true, then that's just a lame excuse, he still had plenty of material that he could use that I think could span another full season. But if he had just grown tired or exhausted with making the series and wanted to end it with a movie, then Showtime could've just hired someone else to replace him, the series is very unfinished and there are still some loose ends to tie up and that's the problem.

And I really think that all these speculations about Jordan wanting the series to be Rodrigo-centric and that he was unhappy that Cesare & Lucrezia eventually stole the show & overshadowed Rodrigo really holds weight, if you consider how the series had played out towards the end. The series became more about Cesare & Lucezia both individually and together as a couple, more than Rodrigo in S3, you can see that the focus and attention gradually shifted more towards Cesare & Lucrezia in S3, especially Cesare because S3 was very much about Cesare's rise to power. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Jordan just didn't want Cesare & Lucrezia to continue stealing the show from Rodrigo so he proposed the idea of a short TV movie to wrap everything up. I think if a 4th season were to be made, it would probably continue to be more about Cesare & Lucrezia since they are just too popular with fans & audiences there's no way Jordan would've been able to avoid that, which is probably why the writing for S3 became more about them than Rodrigo.
I also refuse to believe that a TV movie would cost more than a full season, surely a 1-2 hours movie would be cheaper to make. I think Showtime just wanted any excuse to push this series aside and make room for that new modern series that they wanted to replace The Borgias with but never made it to air. I think it's such a stupid move from Showtime; first canceling such a brilliant show like The Borgias, then canceling the new show that was suppose to replace it some fans of this series even boycotted Showtime after they canceled it.
There's so many speculations about why it was canceled and whose decision it actually was to end it, and it's all confusing, so I'd like to think it was a combination of different reasons, and both Jordan and Showtime were responsible with the decision making.

Btw the more recent fan campaign with Fansaved.com is still ongoing, so you guys can join it if you like but yes I doubt all of this effort from fans would yield any results, however that certainly doesn't stop fans from trying.
Oh well, we can only depend on fanfiction now, I'm actually working on my own fanfic about the Borgia family, it's going to be my own version of a sequel to the series and yes it's going to be VERY Cesare & Lucrezia-centric! Or of course we could also turn to other works about the Borgia family.

BL.Arinna_1982

I think that NJ wasn't keen with the idea of CL being together and this is why he wrote that last part. However, based on the three last seasons, that last part looked more like a stand alone movie, because it had nothing to do with the characters.

PhoenixRising

Yeah, a lot of us suspected that the Siblings episode was the one that Jordan perhaps wasn't too okay with. The scene where Lucrezia seduces Cesare while lying naked in her bed does seem kind of tacked on considering that she seems shocked later when he kisses her while they look at the seating arrangements. I was like, didn't she just try to seduce him earlier, and didn't they almost kiss in her bedroom? I think the bedroom seduction may have been added on later to give the episode more context leading up to the love scene at the end. And you're correct, Linda. Jordan had already deviated so far from the history that why would he mind the incest thing? Did you see some of his earlier stuff, like The Crying Game? The European Borgia series got some of the history correct more often than the Showtime series, but they went way off course in other areas and ended things awfully. And it was easier to like the characters in the Showtime version than the European version.

Sure, Showtime could've replaced Jordan, but who could they get to take over that show? I think they just decided to cut their losses after Jordan pulled his Apocalypse thing. I'll never forgive him for that because he betrayed a loyal fanbase. Good luck him getting any fan support in the future because no one will ever trust him again. And like I said earlier, didn't The Godfather have Michael take over as the lead character from Vito? So if Jordan used The Godfather as his inspiration, what was wrong with having Cesare take over the lead status from Rodrigo during the final season? Making the series Rodrigo-centric really doesn't make sense from a narrative point of view considering that Cesare is the one who finishes out the story, not Rodrigo. Having the story move from Rodrigo to Cesare and Lucrezia would only be a natural progression of the story in my opinion.

I don't think that boycotting Showtime helped. After all, it was Jordan who put them in that position and he was the one being unreasonable. If he had just stuck to the four season plan like they had agreed upon I'm sure Showtime would've obliged. It's great that there's still a fan campaign to bring back the show. I honestly can't believe that it's still going on. It just shows how devoted the fans were to this show. But you're right, I'm not hoping for much. But I'd love to see your fanfic about Cesare and Lucrezia!

LindaL100

I agree Alex, I think Jordan probably dreaded that "Siblings" episode, but he really didn't have many options at that point, Cesare & Lucrezia's relationship had already built up to that point, it had to happen. Furthermore that "Siblings" ep wasn't even written by Jordan, it was actually written by his co-writer Guy Burt, but Jordan probably still had some influence in the writing for that ep since he was the showrunner & head writer. I remember Francois mentioned in an interview that the love scene with Cesare & Lu in the end of that ep had to be re-written many times, so clearly that scene was a challenge for the writers.
And yes Jordan had deviated so far away from history, this series is full of inconsistencies and deviations from facts anyway, heck, Jordan even invented a completely new character (Paolo) who was entirely fictional and did not even exist in real-life. So why should he care whether those incest rumors about Cesare & Lu were true or not? I'm starting to suspect that Jordan probably simply just didn't like the incest relationship regardless of whether he believed those rumors or not. But other people probably forced his hand in this matter and he was probably persuaded to go down that incest path with Cesare & Lu. That certainly would explain Jordan's drastic change in attitude towards their characters and their relationship and completely destroyed them in his book.
And I totally agree with you about the characters being much more likable in this series than the European version, it's one of the main reasons why I prefer this version The Borgia family were rather glorified in this version and Jordan made them more likable. But the European version totally villianized the family and made them very unlikable and despicable that I hated them all in the European version, but I suppose that's more consistent with reality. And usually I have troubles enjoying a show when the main characters are so unlikable, and it's one of the main reasons why I don't like the European version, it was hard for me to enjoy it. However the characters are much more likable and tolerable in this version, this series made me fall in love with Cesare! and empathize & sympathize with Lucrezia and some of the other characters, and virtually everyone else in this series were more likable too, I also think there's better chemistry between the casts of this version compared to the European version The only thing I liked about the European version is that it was more historically accurate...if only this version had followed more closely with historical facts also, then perhaps this version would've been even better than it already is, but this version is still great overall and I find it to be much more enjoyable for me

I don't know who Showtime could've replaced Jordan with, but preferably someone who was already working on the series with him? There were many other co-producers who had worked alongside Jordan on this series, and they all would've already had extensive knowledge and understanding about this series, I think any one of them could've easily replaced him as showrunner.
I also agree with you about Cesare, both he and Lucrezia had outlived their father in reality so the story should've continued with Cesare and Lucrezia, this series is called The Borgias, not "Rodrigo Borgia", so it is suppose to be about the family collectively, and not just Rodrigo alone. But with all this speculation about Jordan wanting the series to remain Rodrigo-centric, it gives me the impression that Jordan might've harboured some favoritism towards Rodrigo or Jeremy Irons, that would also explain his appalling treatment towards Cesare & Lucrezia's characters in his book.

Boycotting Showtime certainly didn't help either, I think some fans simply boycotted them out of spite for canceling the series and not bringing it back after its replacement was also canceled. I think that's partially why some fans have been campaigning and appealing to other networks and companies to have it renewed, such as Netflix and HBO and even Amazon video. Similarly to what happened to the BBC series Ripper Street, it originally aired on BBC One but the network canceled it after 2 seasons due to low ratings, then Amazon Video picked it up and renewed it for 3 more seasons.
Some think the series would've been handled better if had aired on HBO or if it was a Netflix original series. What do you think about that? Showtime certainly doesn't have a good track record when it comes to managing their shows...they also canceled some of their other popular shows around the same time they canceled The Borgias, and then they canceled the new series that was suppose to replace The Borgias before it could even go to air. They have really made some poor decisions I feel the series probably would've had better treatment if it was aired on HBO.

As for my fanfic, well I've only just started on it I haven't even finished writing chapter 1 yet, but once I've finished it I'll definitely post it up online

BL.Arinna_1982

Where? Do you have a FanFic page?

PhoenixRising

Well, Jordan may have had issues with Siblings, but as Francois and Holly said, it was already all over his writing from the first episode. If you don't wanna have to fire that gun at some point, you shouldn't hang it on the wall to begin with.

Oh, thanks for mentioning that, Linda. I did get the impression that the Siblings episode went through a lot of re-writes and reshoots. But the point is that they built up to that scene perfectly. Except for that part where Alfonso acted like a petulant little kid upon seeing the question mark next to his name. Seriously, grow up.

Well, here's another thing: Jordan again said that The Godfather was his inspiration for The Borgias, and The Godfather author Mario Puzo wrote the novel, The Family, about the Borgia family, and that novel had Rodrigo making Cesare take Lucrezia's virginity before her marriage to ensure that her heart and her devotion was to her family first. A bit extreme, I know. But Cesare and Lucrezia's incestuous relationship continued for years afterwards in the book, so I don't see what Jordan's issue was. Doing what he did to them in his Apocalypse screenplay was unnecessary and vindictive. And yeah, even Puzo shifted the focus from Rodrigo to Cesare and Lucrezia at a certain point, so what's the problem? By the time you get to The Godfather Part II Vito is dead and it's all about Michael, so it's not like this is a big deal.

Well, the European version was just plain dark and depressing all the way through. The Showtime version had a lot of light and color to it, you know? It had a more cinematic quality as well. And yes, the cast was just far more enjoyable in the Showtime version and had great chemistry with each other.

Jordan had co-show runners, but I honestly don't know who Showtime could've chosen to replace him, or if anyone would've wanted to. It's not like show runners hadn't been replaced before on TV shows, but this one would be difficult given the material and the fact that it filmed in Europe. But perhaps you're right and one of them could've taken over, I don't know. And as for the favoritism of Jeremy Irons, that's also a possibility, but I don't think that Jeremy would be okay with tanking the entire show for that.

OMG, Ripper Street got picked up for another 3 seasons? I thought it got cancelled. That's good news. I saw a couple of episodes on BBC America. And you know, sometimes campaigns do work occasionally. Timeless just got renewed after NBC cancelled it and the internet exploded with outrage, and NBC changed their minds. Good point, The Borgias might've been better served on HBO.

Well I hope you'll link us to your fanfic when you're finished, Linda.

LindaL100

Francois knew from the beginning that Cesare & Lucrezia's relationship was going to turn incestuous sooner or later, and so did we the fans and viewers, because like the actors have said, it was all over Jordan's writing from the very beginning and as we have mentioned before, their relationship was already building up to that point. So it really wasn't any surprise to Francois nor to us the viewers when their relationship finally went to that stage, it was inevitable, and many fans wanted it to happen so much I remember Francois mentioned in an interview that he got asked about the Cesare & Lu incest a lot, and that the main things fans always wanted to know about his character were the incest and Cesare's leather pants lol
Yeah I don't like Alfonso at all, he's such a wimp and so spineless and weak and completely incapable of defending himself or protect Lucrezia, which is the main reason why Cesare never trusted him, he was just too weak and spineless and not to mention he's ugly too The only reason Lucrezia chose to marry him was because he was very immature and weak and can easily be manipulated. After her disastrous first marriage to the abusive Giovanni Sforza in which she had absolutely no control in, she wanted to finally be the one in control, so she purposely chose Alfonso who was younger, more naive and hopeless and Lu was able to easily control him and dominate over him. I honestly wasn't surprised when he reacted the way he did on their wedding night and literally cried in his bed like a baby, he was technically still a child when they got married, a wimpy teenager who was younger, more naive and less experienced in life than Lu, that's precisely why Lu chose him in the first place.

I love 'The Family' written by Mario Puzo, his approach to Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship was different to Jordan's, while Jordan depicted the siblings' incestuous relationship as more progressive and we saw their relationship gradually grow and deepen and evolve during the course of the series, Mario Puzo on the other hand opted to make their incest more instantaneous instead. In Mario's book, Cesare & Lu's relationship was incestuous from the very beginning when Cesare & Lu had sex with each other when Lu was only 13 years old, so their relationship in Mario's book was more similar to Jaime & Cersei's incest in Game of Thrones in the sense that their incest was also more instantaneous. But what I love about Mario's portrayal of Cesare & Lucrezia's incest in his book is that they had always loved each other and continued to love each other until the very end, until their deaths and I love the ending after Cesare died, Lucrezia was so devastated and heartbroken by his death that she locked herself in her room for days crying and screaming his name, she mourned his death more like a widow rather than a sister. Also the writing for their incestuous relationship was always consistent throughout Mario's book.
While I do love the more gradual progression of Cesare & Lu's relationship portrayed in this series, I feel that there were certain times in S3 when I felt the writing for their relationship was a little inconsistent, especially in the finale. As much as I love that finale, but I feel the writing for Lucrezia's relationships with both Cesare and Alfonso were a bit inconsistent. I mean, in one scene she tells Cesare that she's tired of her husband and tired of her life and the only thing she never gets tired of is Cesare, she basically reaffirmed her strong feelings and her love for him in that scene. But then in a later scene in the same episode she suddenly fears him and wants to protect her husband (whom she says she has become tired of) from Cesare? It doesn't really make sense to me. And not to mention Jordan's horrible book in which Lucrezia completely betrays her family by poisoning her father to death and tried to kill Cesare Jordan not only destroyed Cesare & Lu's relationship in his book, he also completely destroyed the integrity of Lucrezia's character, by turning her into a traitor to her own family and murdering her own father and attempted to kill her brother too. There's just so much rubbish in Jordan's horrendous book that really contradicted what was established in the series And for these reasons, I much prefer the ending of Mario's book, what Jordan wrote in his book was atrocious.
I feel Jordan's quite a contradiction, some of the things he said about his work on this series and some of his actions are inconsistent, he seemed to contradict himself. I'm starting to believe more and more that Jordan probably just didn't like the whole incest with Cesare & Lu. He wanted to portray them as the perfect couple if they weren't siblings meaning he wanted to portray them as very close siblings who have a very special bond with a level of intimacy between them. But he probably didn't like the idea of their relationship becoming fully incestuous.

Whether Jordan may have had some favoritism towards Jeremy Irons aside, I think there's another possibility that perhaps Jordan or maybe the other producers or even Showtime could've had some concerns about whether the series would've been able to continue or succeed without Jeremy...considering Jeremy was the biggest name on the cast and he's an Emmy award-winning actor afterall, and he was the show's main draw in the beginning. But that gradually changed as the series progressed because like I mentioned before, Cesare/Francois & Lucrezia/Holliday quickly became so popular with fans that they had eventually overshadowed Rodrigo/Jeremy later in the series. I think Cesare/Francois & Lucrezia/Holly could've been able to carry the series by themselves after Rodrigo's death, especially Cesare who arguably became the most popular character on the show with fans during its later seasons. Either that or Jordan probably did have some favoritism towards Jeremy...and the fact that both Francois & Holly had argued with him quite a lot might have attributed to Jordan's possible favoritism towards Jeremy as well.

And you're right Alex, often fan campaigns do succeed, but my worries are since this series is a period drama and it's filmed in Hungary, it's more expensive to make compared to most modern shows. And it's already been 3-4 years since this series was canceled, so all the filming sets used in the series have all probably been demolished by now. So even if by a miracle this series does get renewed, they might have to build new sets, and that would cost even more money. So chances of this series ever getting renewed is very slim...however, some fans are not giving up and I think it's great that there are still fans who are putting so much effort and dedication in bringing the series back. It might seem like a fruitless attempt or useless, but it's not exactly "impossible" either, so we shouldn't give up just yet

As for the European version, I also think it's too exaggerated on so many levels, too much unnecessary nudity, gore and sex scenes. I love the fact that this version in comparison is more toned-down and censored, it still has some nudity, gore and sex scenes, but it's not too over the top or unnecessarily excessive. Whereas the European version is just too annoyingly excessive on so many aspects, it's just too much for me. You don't need to have excessive amounts of nudity and sex and gore to make a good series, and this version proves it

Oh btw, weren't you going to create a thread for Rodrigo & Vanozza Alex?

BL.Arinna_1982

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LindaL100

thanks for the pic Arinna

I absolutely love their very first scene together in ep 1 I love just about all of their scenes together of course, but that one is definitely one of my favorites and it was the scene that made me and many other fans fall in love with this beautiful couple in the first place!

PhoenixRising

Oh, I love that pic, Arinna! Thank you!

I am going to make a Rodrigo/Vanozza thread, Linda. But the problem is that threads need an Opening Page, and I'm really no good at doing that. I've never made one and I was hoping to get someone to help out with that. It requires a lot of arts and graphics and stuff that I've never been good at doing.

Yeah, like we keep saying, it's hard to believe that Francois and Holly could see the incestuous relationship developing between Cesare and Lucrezia and Neil Jordan, the guy who was writing it, did not, and even discouraged them from playing up their chemistry even though they told him that he's the one who wrote all that stuff. I'm not sure what convinced Jordan to go ahead with the storyline, but he must've seen how his actors were responding to the writing.

Francois: "It felt like it was meant to happen. Of course they do have sexual feelings for one another, but it mostly comes from a deep, deep love."

"It was funny because I remember when we first got there three years ago. When we first got to Budapest, my first rehearsal was with Holly. It was for our very first scene together. We were lying in the garden and Neil kept insisting that we had too many innuendos or it was too romantic or too sexual. And we both argued that it was already all over his writing."

"It was like there was nothing else to do. So we kept asking, 'Do you want us to play against it?' Instinctively that's what came to us, and that's what worked. We had arguments, really big discussions about it in the first year, and he said, 'Well, we don't know if that happened. It could all be rumors.'"

Uhhh... Neil? There was a lot of stuff in your show that never happened. So I don't see what the problem is. And yeah, I remember Francois talking about how incest and leather pants were the most popular topics of discussion with fans. I think Alfonso on the show was the polar opposite of Giovanni Sforza, which is probably why she did think she'd be more in a position of control than in her first marriage. Of course, Giovanni Sforza in the history was never like that, and the reasons for the ending of their marriage had more to do with Rodrigo's political ambitions and the lack of loyalty from the Sforzas. And Giovanni was also apparently the one who first accused Cesare and Lucrezia of incest. Of course, Lucrezia was with Perotto at the time as well, so...


Wow, thanks for the info, Linda! I'd never read Puzo's novel, but I really like what you've described. And yes, I do believe that Lucrezia mourned for days after Cesare's death and was utterly devastated, so who knows what happened between them in real life? Oh, yeah, we've already discussed out inconsistent Lucrezia's words and actions are in the season 3 finale, to the point where Holly seems like she's playing two different characters. Again, I chalk that up to the writers and Jordan, who was probably trying to have his cake and eat it too, apparently. There are a few moments in that finale that seem to point in the direction that Jordan wanted to go in Apocalypse, which is why it's difficult for me to watch those scenes. The scenes at the beginning between Cesare and Lucrezia are the characters we've seen throughout the series. I don't know who that Lucrezia was at the end of The Prince.


Yeah, that was another thing about the European version, the excessive violence. It's not like the Showtime series wasn't violent as well, but the European version seemed to be violence for violence's sake. Did we need to see guys getting sawed in half while hanging upside down?

As far as the campaign goes, I guess we'll have to wait and see. I mean, look at all the other TV revivals going on. Even Twin Peaks came back after 26 years, so who knows?

LindaL100

Like I had emphasized in Francois' thread, Jordan is a contradiction, he contradicts a lot of things he had said and done I don't know if Jordan was in denial, or he was just blind to even understand his own writing, or he simply just didn't like the incest plotline, perhaps it was a combination of all these reasons. But one thing is for certain is that the incredible chemistry between Francois & Holliday was undeniable the incest might have been all over Jordan's writing, but it was really the awesome and electrifying chemistry between Francois & Holly that brought the magic of Cesare & Lucrezia's relationship to life on-screen and it's the chemistry that could not be ignored on the show, and I think their great chemistry was probably a main reason why they decided to go down that incestuous path with Cesare & Lu's relationship. I'm not sure if their relationship would've been as convincing or brilliant if they were played by different actors. Probably not, because their relationship in the European version didn't really do much for me, to me the chemistry between the actors in the European version was less impressive, no where near the incredible chemistry between Francois & Holly in this version! to me Francois & Holly's chemistry seemed and felt more real and organic and natural...whereas the actors in the European version just feels forced and unnatural.

Alfonso was definitely the polar opposite of Giovanni Sforza and Cesare, but that was the point, Giovanni was an abusive, vile and despicable man who abused Lucrezia daily and she couldn't do anything about it, she had no control in that marriage. So she intentionally sought a much weaker and submissive guy for her second marriage so she could finally be the one in control in the marriage, and she was, she easily controlled and dominated over Alfonso during their marriage. Well both Alfonso and Giovanni were ugly, so at least they had that in common lol ok in all seriousness, even though I dislike Alfonso because he's so weak and spineless and hopeless...but there were times when I did felt kinda bad for him, I mean, his wife was having a passionate love affair with her own brother and he couldn't do anything about it, he's rather pitiful...but usually I don't care about Alfonso anyway.

Oh you really should read Mario Puzo's book it's really good I highly recommend it the thing is though, Mario actually died before he could finish the novel, so the book was actually completed by his long-time girlfriend, however Mario did write most of the novel, while his girlfriend wrote the last few chapters or so. The novel remained largely faithful to historical facts so that's good, and like I mentioned before, Mario's approach to Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship was very well-written, very tragic but beautiful, much like their relationship in this series except the couple had a more satisfying ending in Mario's book...unlike the atrocious ending they had in Jordan's book even the couple's ending in the finale when they were lying on the bed and Cesare was wiping Alfonso's blood off Lu's face and Cesare's super hot and possessive declaration "you'll be naked, clean and bloodless again...and mine" as brilliant and hot as that scene was, but I still wanted more from that ending, it still wasn't satisfying enough for me.
And I agree you could tell that the Lucrezia at the end of the finale was different to the Lucrezia we knew for much of the series. She became corrupted by the end of the series, and in Jordan's book the integrity of her character was completely destroyed.

As for the Rodrigo & Vanozza thread, maybe Arinna can help you create it? I've noticed that she's created quite a lot of threads like this herself

BL.Arinna_1982

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PhoenixRising

Actually, Arinna didn't come up with the arts and stuff for the thread OP's, Linda. That was either Jade or our friend, Tia. We used to have lots of people here who helped out with OP's, but most of them are gone.

Awww, that's another great scene, Arinna! Where did you get that one?

Well, Jordan is a bit of a conundrum if you've seen his films. He's usually hit and miss. I think he had an idea of what he wanted to do, and he enjoyed playing around with the underlying, subtle, and implied incestuous connection between Cesare and Lucreizia, but I'm unsure if he ever even intended for it to be anything more than that. The problem is that if you flirt with that line too often you're gonna cross is even if you don't know it.

But yeah, Jordan preferred keeping things Rodrigo-centric, so perhaps he did resent giving Cesare and Lucrezia the spotlight. The only problem is, that's the natural progression of the story. Rodrigo diminishes and Cesare and Lucrezia ascend to being the main characters of the story just as they did in life after Rodrigo's death. Of course, Francois and Holly are the ones most responsible for bringing it to life. They transcended Jordan's writing in many ways.

I don't know if I'd call Alfonso ugly, but he was definitely hairy. But in real life Giovanni Sforza was much younger than he was portrayed on the show. And there was no abuse either, his marriage to Lucrezia ended due to his own jealousy and insecurity. Alfonso is a different matter altogether. The show does portray him as weak, but the history suggests that he's the only husband Lucrezia had whom she truly cared for. But the history also suggests that he plotted to kill Cesare and even had an assassination attempt made that failed, so... :shug: And like I said, I think the end of The Prince showed a little of what Jordan had in store for the final season, which is why Lucrezia and Cesare's behavior in the final scenes is so frustrating, because it just doesn't seem like them anymore. Not the couple we'd been watching since season 1.

Oh, I wish I had time to read more, Linda. I'd love to read Puzo's book.