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Old 04-24-2017, 05:56 PM
  #46
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Thanks for those gifs, Arinna! A bit too much Alfonso in them, though.

Hi, Gwen! Yeah, Cesare did get very detailed about the fishing village, as if it were something he'd actually spent a bit of time thinking about.

Yeah, Lucrezia has said that several times, and not just in Siblings, but in other episodes that she gets worried and anxious whenever Cesare leaves. When he's gone, she forgets him, but then when he returns it's like God enters the room for her.

Yeah, Juan was really wasted at that point, so who knows how he came to the idea that there was something possibly going on between Cesare and Lucrezia. They certainly did have a lot of intimacy between them, which may have left Juan once again feeling like the odd man out. He already felt that way with his suspicions about his parentage, and I think he also resented Lucrezia because she never showed him nearly as much affection as she did Cesare. Oh, and good call about Juan's reaction to Lucrezia walking in on him and his lover. Not a very modest family. He didn't even attempt to cover up.

Oh, and with regards to Alfonso, I think it's also telling how he resorted to getting drunk all the time to deal with his issues regarding his place in the family, or lack thereof, and he suddenly began to remind Lucrezia of Juan. She even mentioned this to Alfonso, that she'd know someone else who drank a lot as well.

Yeah, I know that Cesare never refused a dance with Lucrezia before, but he'd never had that much weight on his shoulders before either. Like I said, he had Caterina Sforza and the sons of the houses of the Romagna all plotting against them after Rodrigo had been poisoned, and he'd already had confrontations with both before Lucrezia asked him to dance. I think he was just too focused on other things at that point. And you're right, Lucrezia could tell that something was wrong with him. And perhaps the fact that he and Lucrezia had just kissed had added to that. In any case, he was dealing with a lot of

I actually think that Lucrezia was being even more careful than Cesare was, always warning him about the potential for scandal, remember? He didn't think anyone should make a big deal about how they would be so affectionate with each other because they were "Spanish." And Cesare was already planning on raising an army anyway, so this killed two birds with one stone. But yeah, after they reunited it was like they couldn't fight off their feelings any longer, even with Alfonso around. They were probably really horny as well. I so wish they had another love scene.
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Old 04-25-2017, 03:11 AM
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I used to post on FF years ago for reality shows, but I'm here now for the illustrious lady Lucrezia and her protector and love Cesare. I read most of your threads the past two weeks because I'm an addict about how others view what went on with this show. I just got into the show about a month ago, and these two I adore them. I know they're brother and sister, but I always look at circumstances, and they went through so much. Of course, they're going to end up turning to each other!

I am so mad they canceled this. We finally got him saying she was his, and Jordan can’t possibly write any more? I also don’t like that Apocalypse nightmare script because you can’t write Lucrezia one way (opposite of history because HE pursues her relentlessly), and then, you just change everything. Scared your love story is gonna get you thrown out of some Hollywood best of club or something? Is this not the man who wrote “The Crying Game” years ago? I felt it odd.

At least they would have one an amazing love scene before she fled pregnant with his child probably, start writing letters until she finally allows him to visit vis-à-vis Micheletto, who convinces her how Cesare is dying without her. He then sees she is pregnant with his child, and they have a beautiful reunion at the convent. I started writing something like that to be honest because I’m unhappy it ended in this way even though the alternative was trash.

As far as my fave scenes, that's hard to choose. I truly adore the seating chart episode because it was such a symbol in that episode and pushed them to a new level.

I loved the first scene when she’s passionately talking about her son being a bastard as are they, and you know even though they are the children of the Pope, that still is in the back of their minds and a constant theme tossed in their direction throughout the seasons. It’s yet something else they share and no one else knows how that feels (minus the dead Juan), and he loves how passionate she is about having Giovanni recognized. The looks he gives her in that scene.

And he is so miserable when he can’t get that stupid Naples king to recognize Giovanni, and of course, he has to deal with Alfonso being “meek as a girl,” as he fights for Lucrezia’s son and ultimately her happiness. We see his frustration that he didn’t get what she wanted, and I knew Naples was in trouble at some point in the future because no one upsets his Lucrezia and doesn’t pay for it.

When he returns, she has that amazing dialogue about how ridiculous it is that a child would cause alliances to be “held in jeopardy.” Truly, Holly completely transforms this character from a young innocent child into a strong, outspoken, don’t screw with me woman. Why she wasn’t nominated I don’t understand because she is brilliant!

Then, she breaks down saying no matter what she does, she truly cannot find which will make her happy, and that man, oh, that man, he promises he will make her happy. I melt every time I watch this scene. Gah, Francois please stop being so perfect with that husky voice. lol He pulls her to him, and I love how she’s never scared but actually feels safer when he does that move.

Now onto the help me I’m drowning in my feels stuff. I can't say enough about that kiss. Everything about that scene is perfect.

She is miserable thinking he is gonna hurt her due to his ambition, and that these ambitions outweigh the love he feels for her. Holly delivers that line, “I placed you here as you see at my side,” so well that you can’t help but cry along with her. Then, after he says, “As long as you,” with that little break in his voice (kill me now), the looks go from this sweet thank god I made her smile again (as we flash to her sweet in awe smile) to screw it I can’t hold this in a moment longer (Francois is a genius at that with her).

The way he grabs her and engulfs her (her responding like this dainty doll all happy to be loved so passionately), and those hands of his so delicate not to hurt her but wanting her close to him. I mean I could write a book about that scene. I watch it way too much, and I have a ton of those gifs. It is just insanely perfect.

I kind of laugh how he stares at her hoping she'll say something afterwards, this desperate what did I just do look. Cesare, you just gave her the lip lock of her life, she needs time to let it sink in a bit, but just like most men he stomps off. I think he was worried he had ruined everything, and he couldn't handle losing her after finally taking the next step.

Francois jokingly blames it on her, but yeah, no, Cesare sent her past the point of no return with that kiss. You also hear him sigh before he gets to that door too.

Then, Cesare has to take that seating chart and go crazy with it which really we know it's because he hates this marriage, pissed at the Pope for it, and he's mad at himself for letting his feelings just take over everything. Francois' passion as Cesare is insanely hot! I love how romantic he is with Lucrezia at times. I’ve only seen one man who rivals it on my Guiding Light, Tom Pelphrey, and of course, those two were cousins (feels like a creep now). In my defense, I didn’t realize that until I was already in love with that couple as well.

Then, after the wedding, Lucrezia I think she goes back to that seating chart area to feel like she felt with Cesare earlier. Let me recreate that moment with my husband kind of feeling. I mean she's downright vulgar with that little virgin, and then, he sees Cesare's lack of respect for him which somehow he relates back to her as if that's her fault. I'm sorry, but his crying in bed I was done with him. I can elaborate another time on how I think Lucrezia picks mostly weak men because then she can dominate them after she was raped.

But Lucrezia would have her husband tonight just in the form of Cesare (his dream come true). He has this panic sound in his breathing, but it all ceases the moment she says this with a single tear falling from her eyes. This scene I about died when he wouldn't let her kiss him because he wanted to see her climax as he does later again as we know.

That look in his eyes it was like he was finally whole, and he had to make sure she felt the same before they had that final kiss. I love when he reaches to kiss her (sexyyyyyyyy), and I would’ve like to have seen more of that because that man can KISS. Wish they had given us a little more of the vocal part of it, but what we did get was definitely nice. My fave part besides his look that is seared into my brain for all time is the smiles they have for each other. My little loves are finally happy.

How they ONLY gave us one love scene after showing us that is an absolute crime. We need something where they missed each other so much that he was like a wild beast attacking her, and she was loving every second of it both of them laughing and then erupting into passion for one another! Even in history the obsession that Cesare has with her neck (possessive) she knew he wasn't going to hurt her, so it never bothered her. I loved how Francois and Holly incorporated that into their scenes at times.

And, yes, I've read "The Family" not as thoroughly yet, but I thought outside of the weird sexual part with Alexander (creepy AF) when they were together that Jordan could've put that in as a flashback. It would've given reasoning to so much of what we saw (her first of all watching her brother having sex hello), and honestly, by S3 no one would've batted an eye IMHO. I think if anyone could've made this work the amazing Francois and Holly would've done it right.

Everyone says they hear Holly say, “I love you,” in the scene where he lets her know the creepy King of Naples needs to watch her consummate her marriage, but if you listen closely after she says, “I want you,” Cesare says, “No,” as well right before he starts to moan and sob. And that kiss full of pain and devastation that he’s let her down again but trying to soothe her heart at the same time.

I also love the consummation scene. I've truly never seen anything like it. When he inches forward to beckon her to him was so sexy and erotic (that man and his eyes and lips in that scene), and of course, the dance they do with each other while no one is the wiser. It is a game of want and wanting as Lucrezia would say.
I also think he went there for a few reasons. He wanted to get both of them through that ordeal, but he also only wanted her to feel that passion for him after they made love.

I kind of grin that he was so into that whole thing that he had to state that to her when he was going on about “work our way to happiness,” so she had to feel like my hold on you isn't gonna go away that easy brother. Sure enough, we saw with Charlotte he was still longing for her.

I thought she should’ve been pissed at him in that scene, but I think she knew this wasn’t gonna end. It didn’t end for all of these years the hold they have on each other, so she merely just glares at him at and says, “Come back soon,” trying to touch him, and he freaks out and leaves. I mean if a man can look at her and get off, lord knows what her touch does to him at this point.

That happiness thing he says though after saying he would make her happy, I was mad at him for fleeing like a child because he was scared, and I think we see her pissed at him in the fair scene as he is declaring basically his love for her, and she is more worried about Alfonso. I think that was her punishing him for telling her one thing and doing another, and we see him follow her even though it was cut off here.

Cesare never did that ever in history by the way, but I think Jordan wanted to give the character this honorable quality, so he had to deny what he wanted while she pursued him. He truly picked the perfect man to do it with in Francois as Cesare.

I also love when she visits him, and I think it's smart to think perhaps that was the morning after they were together again. When she is pulling away her hand, he is super reluctant to let her go back to whiny, and he does that jealous look we see when she marries Sforza as well (at the time I was all what is that look Cesare). But later, when you see it in that scene, it all makes sense, unless that look is him trying to get a hold of his emotions because he does it in S3E2 as well when she’s sexily touching his armor. Maybe it’s more of a get yourself in check, but of course, he’s the one starting that with “me for him” in that scene. Such a tease!

AND can I just say all of his whisper words in S3 are so romantic and sexy - “Everything?” I love that husky whisper of his. Francois has such a sexy whisper voice.

I know people think there's something in that promo, but I also know there's going to be a new release of the show in June with allegedly scenes included in it. If you want to make your money Showtime, all you have to do is have a bunch of cutting room floor Lu/Ces scenes. We'll surely buy that set!

I will say more later, but just now I had a love like this once where you’re so consumed by each other in your own world no one else can touch, and unfortunately, there were circumstances that ruined it. The bubble we were in burst, and once it did, things were just so complicated and uncomfortable that I tried to pull away. He could get upset, and I was Cesare and ran off with no happy ending just a few times speaking after the fact him pretending I wasn’t married, and me fleeing again out of guilt because I had made a commitment to another (and he was not free either). When a man is that consumed by you, and he stares at you all the time with such a haunting look that you feel completely vulnerable and shiver almost at times and find it hard to breathe, I can’t really describe how it makes you feel.

I’d love to discuss S1 because I must admit I took a while to get where you guys got right away. Lol More on that later.
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Old 04-25-2017, 02:15 PM
  #48
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Whoa, you really love them! Welcome to the board and this thread! We're more than happy to finally have you here.
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Old 04-25-2017, 04:31 PM
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Hi, untilwemeetagain! Welcome to the Borgias board! It's a pleasure to meet you!

Wow! You wrote a lot! It's gonna take me some time to read through all of that, but I'm glad you agree with us on so many topics. I'm also glad you decided to post after reading our threads. Yeah, it really sucked when Showtime cancelled the series. We were all seriously depressed here for a long time, and many of our regular posters have long since left.

Oh, and we do have a Season 1 discussion thread if you want to discuss the show more there when it comes to things other than Cesare and Lucrezia. And I also agree that Holly really knocks it out of the park with her acting. Both she and Francois were remarkable in their roles. The chemistry is off the charts, and the writing just makes it all come together. Even Francois and Holly saw the incestuous subtext in Neil Jordan's writing, and we have both of them to thank for the show finally taking their relationship in that direction.

I'll read the rest of your post and try to answer as much as I can. I hope we see you on the board again soon! And if you'd like to introduce yourself formally you can do so on our intro board if you want.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:55 PM
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Do you think we should have another The Borgias re-watch?
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:10 AM
  #51
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Welcome to the thread untilwemeetagain

I will reply to your detailed post when I come back here later, great to see someone else sharing in the Cesare/Lucrezia love!


Quote:
Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post)
Does she love me - as she loves her brother?


Look what I found on Tumblr! I think it's gorgeous!

That bed scene with Alfonso was so revealing. Lucrezia lost all interest in a physical relationship with him after making love with Cesare. She could only think of Cesare in that way, probably for the rest of her marriage (and life).


Quote:
They certainly did have a lot of intimacy between them, which may have left Juan once again feeling like the odd man out. He already felt that way with his suspicions about his parentage, and I think he also resented Lucrezia because she never showed him nearly as much affection as she did Cesare. Oh, and good call about Juan's reaction to Lucrezia walking in on him and his lover. Not a very modest family. He didn't even attempt to cover up.
I'll talk more about this on the David Oakes thread, but yes, I think there were more layers to Juan than people realized and the closeness between Cesare and Lucrezia bothered him more than he liked to admit. That's why I was genuinely disappointed that the two of them never stopped to wonder what was REALLY wrong with Juan. Seriously, he's their brother, and they DID love him for years, but by the end of Season 2 they just conclude he's a drunken moron who needs to die.

And oh my god yes, they had no boundaries at all when it came to sex. They literally wandered in and out of each other's rooms without a care in the world. I think for siblings, the three of them crossed the line once too often.
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Old 04-27-2017, 02:13 PM
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That bed scene with Alfonso was so revealing. Lucrezia lost all interest in a physical relationship with him after making love with Cesare. She could only think of Cesare in that way, probably for the rest of her marriage (and life).
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:33 PM
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I'm gonna try and reply to your post soon, untilwemeetagain. You wrote a lot to reply to. I think you have a lot of stuff to say that can also be shared on the other threads if you want to. I should bump up the discussion threads to the first page.

Hi, Gwen! Sorry for posting so late. It's my day off and I'm usually very lazy on these days.

Yep, Cesare really spoiled Lucrezia after her wedding night. She even had to look at Cesare when she was forced to have sex with Alfonso in front of King Ferdinand. That was a tough scene.

I hope you can post on the David/Juan thread, Gwen. We could use more discussion there.

You know, the only part of Apocalypse I liked was the idea that Cesare found a husband for Lucrezia who wouldn't be that interested in her so that she could fulfill her obligation to have a political marriage while being Cesare's lover. Lucrezia really liked sneaking into Cesare's bedroom a lot.
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Old 04-27-2017, 10:14 PM
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Psst, it's little ole me again blowing it up in here. lol Nah, just kidding. I guess I was a little excited. If you wouldn't mind adding me to the list, I would it.

My husband thinks I'm a bit of a creep about this whole Borgias thing. We have the animal Borgias. My male cocker is obsessed with his sister. lol I can just blame it on that.

Yes, I read all of the threads as I have been working late hours lately for a project, so when I got bored and couldn't keep my eyes open, I'd sneak in peeks of what you guys were talking about and loved it. It was enthralling to say the least because I love like-minded individuals about shipping.

I adore them. I think as you all have, I am going through withdrawals right now and trying to find others in my same situation. I'm kind of glad I came in late because the wait for these seasons seemed a little insane, but it's hard having this aching want for more. I'm greedy that way.

Wait, there's Borgiacest in the Apocalypse? I didn't know that. I thought it was just implied homoeroticism. I'll pass on that. I'm starting to wonder if Jordan isn't into the females too much.

I hope you guys read what I wrote and comment a little bit.
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:06 AM
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Hi, untilwemeetagain! I'm glad you came back! I'm sorry if it took a while to reply to you. My PC decided to start an upgrade right after you posted.

I just added you! And don't worry, I've posted very long posts as well. Sometimes four or five paragraphs depending on the subject.

He thinks you're a bit of a creep? Is it because of the incest thing? We've all had to deal with that here. We tell people we're Cesare/Lucrezia shippers and they get a little taken aback. But I think Game of Thrones has taken some of the heat off of us. Oooh, and you have a cocker spaniel?

Awww, I'm glad you were peeking in on us. I did that too when I first came to FF. I lurked around here for almost a year before I joined FF and got an account. And my reason was shipping too.

We all miss Cesare and Lucrezia. But I'm actually glad you came in late too, because we're happy to have new fans come here who are just discovering the series. We've been going through a lot of withdrawal as well. But being greedy here is welcome.

I didn't read Apocalypse all the way through, so I'm not sure if there's Borgiacest. I do know that Cesare set Lucrezia up with her new husband because he was supposedly gay, so Lucrezia could be married and be Cesare's lover. But as for actual scenes, I don't really know.

I'm gonna try and answer your post a bit at a time. There's a lot to get through.


Quote:
At least they would have one an amazing love scene before she fled pregnant with his child probably, start writing letters until she finally allows him to visit vis-à-vis Micheletto, who convinces her how Cesare is dying without her. He then sees she is pregnant with his child, and they have a beautiful reunion at the convent. I started writing something like that to be honest because I’m unhappy it ended in this way even though the alternative was trash.

Oh, I love that scenario! It reminds me of the way the original BBC version of The Borgias back in the 1980's ended. I didn't like much of that old series, but it ended with Cesare dying on a battlefield while Lucrezia reads his final letter to her in front of her children. As Lucrezia reads his letter, Cesare lies dying and his final thoughts are of her, with flashbacks to their moments together. Wow, did you actually start writing something? Do you have any of it that you can link us to?
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:46 AM
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Ugh I meant to post here hours ago But here I am

hellooo!


untilwemeetagain your post is excellent I will answer it later on (promise!!) because I need to respond to it in parts


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I didn't read Apocalypse all the way through, so I'm not sure if there's Borgiacest. I do know that Cesare set Lucrezia up with her new husband because he was supposedly gay, so Lucrezia could be married and be Cesare's lover. But as for actual scenes, I don't really know.
Clever Cesare.

But I still loathe Apocalypse. Sorry, I just can't get on board with the terrible character regression where Cesare and Lucrezia are concerned. Come on, Neil Jordan, is that REALLY the best you had to offer? After the brilliant The Prince finale?


I will be back later guys, promise

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Old 04-28-2017, 02:29 PM
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You better be back, because you're already missing when you're not here.

I don't like the Apocalypse scenario, because it has nothing to do with the actual series. Lucrezia actually kind of hated Cesare and I couldn't buy, after what we've had in season 3.
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Old 04-28-2017, 03:24 PM
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Hi, Gwen! It's okay, take your time. We're always here. But we hope you come back soon!

You too, untilwemeetagain!

Oh, you should've been here back in 2013 when The Borgias was cancelled and we all got a copy of Apocalypse, Gwen. Our posters were furious, and this board had a lot of angry posts about it. Three seasons of character development was thrown out the window when it came to Cesare and Lucrezia, like Jordan didn't even care anymore. Not to mention how it contradicted the established history as well. How can Lucrezia go from being hopelessly in love with Cesare to hating him and wanting him dead, like he's nothing to her other than an inconvenience? And don't get me started on the Cesare/Micheletto thing. Jordan needed to read a history book.
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Old 04-28-2017, 05:33 PM
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OKAY GUYS I AM HERE


Good luck with reading my post without falling asleep. It's long, and it's detailed.





Quote:
Originally Posted by untilwemeetagain (View Post)
I used to post on FF years ago for reality shows, but I'm here now for the illustrious lady Lucrezia and her protector and love Cesare. I read most of your threads the past two weeks because I'm an addict about how others view what went on with this show. I just got into the show about a month ago, and these two I adore them. I know they're brother and sister, but I always look at circumstances, and they went through so much. Of course, they're going to end up turning to each other!
Your whole post is excellent, so brace yourself - I have replied in as much thorough detail as humanly possible.


Quote:
I am so mad they canceled this. We finally got him saying she was his, and Jordan can’t possibly write any more? I also don’t like that Apocalypse nightmare script because you can’t write Lucrezia one way (opposite of history because HE pursues her relentlessly), and then, you just change everything. Scared your love story is gonna get you thrown out of some Hollywood best of club or something? Is this not the man who wrote “The Crying Game” years ago? I felt it odd.
I am totally okay with the Season 3 finale. I truly am.

Lucrezia is Cesare's, and he is hers.

THAT is my ideal ending, and that's the way it is staying.

Do you hear that, Neil Jordan?


Quote:
At least they would have one an amazing love scene before she fled pregnant with his child probably, start writing letters until she finally allows him to visit vis-à-vis Micheletto, who convinces her how Cesare is dying without her. He then sees she is pregnant with his child, and they have a beautiful reunion at the convent. I started writing something like that to be honest because I’m unhappy it ended in this way even though the alternative was trash.
Rumor has it that Lucrezia's son in reality could have been fathered by Cesare.

...Or her father. But for the love of all things, let's not go there.

And that sounds like a great fanfiction you've started

Anything has to be better than the utter that is formally known as The Borgia Apocalypse.


Quote:
And he is so miserable when he can’t get that stupid Naples king to recognize Giovanni, and of course, he has to deal with Alfonso being “meek as a girl,” as he fights for Lucrezia’s son and ultimately her happiness. We see his frustration that he didn’t get what she wanted, and I knew Naples was in trouble at some point in the future because no one upsets his Lucrezia and doesn’t pay for it.

I love TV characters who are shown as protective lovers. Cesare never acted like a protective brother; he acted like a protective potential lover. And surrogate father to Giovanni. ALL the time, with Lucrezia. And his anger towards Alfonso proved it. Cesare has had enough of him, and he believes Lucrezia will always be lacking something if she's not with Cesare. And she will.


Quote:
I can't say enough about that kiss. Everything about that scene is perfect. Holly delivers that line, “I placed you here as you see at my side,” so well that you can’t help but cry along with her. Then, after he says, “As long as you,” with that little break in his voice (kill me now), the looks go from this sweet thank god I made her smile again (as we flash to her sweet in awe smile) to screw it I can’t hold this in a moment longer (Francois is a genius at that with her).
Their performances were at an all-time high in this scene. I think a lot of it has to do with the actors' relief that they FINALLY get to go there with the C/L intimacy. It shows in their acting with each other, as if to say: Well, it's about time!!!


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The way he grabs her and engulfs her (her responding like this dainty doll all happy to be loved so passionately), and those hands of his so delicate not to hurt her but wanting her close to him. I mean I could write a book about that scene. I watch it way too much, and I have a ton of those gifs. It is just insanely perfect.

I said this to Alex the other day - C/L remind me of Cathy and Heathcliff in so many ways Their bursts of passion mixed with their tragic forbidden affection and their siblings relationship and their dislike of other people, in general


Cesare and Lucrezia remind me of the great Gothic romances. Sexy yet doomed. I'm kind of a sucker for those type of relationships.


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I kind of laugh how he stares at her hoping she'll say something afterwards, this desperate what did I just do look. I think he was worried he had ruined everything, and he couldn't handle losing her after finally taking the next step.
Yes, and he's in a fit of frustration, because he's finally had the guts to show Lucrezia his TRUE non-brotherly love for her, but it's all too late because she's due to be married, so he knows they're the epitome of bad timing, which sucks


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Then, Cesare has to take that seating chart and go crazy with it which really we know it's because he hates this marriage, pissed at the Pope for it, and he's mad at himself for letting his feelings just take over everything. Francois' passion as Cesare is insanely hot!
Absolutely I think he just can't take it anymore, the pain of knowing that the woman he loves is marrying another man... Not a brute this time, but someone who would love her and take care of her, someone who isn't Cesare, and it KILLS him, and he doesn't believe Alfonso is truly worthy of her, so it's a huge explosion of feelings about wanting to be the man she marries... It's all so sad, really.


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This scene I about died when he wouldn't let her kiss him because he wanted to see her climax as he does later again as we know.
YESSS, that is my favorite part when she leans in desperately to kiss him, and he pulls her back possessively, because he wants to maintain eye contact to see every part of her reaction to him... Oh I LOVED that.

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That look in his eyes it was like he was finally whole, and he had to make sure she felt the same before they had that final kiss. My fave part besides his look that is seared into my brain for all time is the smiles they have for each other. My little loves are finally happy.
I am SO, SO grateful for how the sex scene wrapped up with a look of ecstatic joy written all over Francois and Holly's faces, because for me, that defined it as a scene of making love rather than just having hot sex; what makes it special is that the actors made the decision (or maybe the writer did, I'm not sure) to play that scene by having them keep looking into each other's eyes the whole time, like they're TERRIFIED the night will end, like they've been waiting for this moment their WHOLE lives it was beautiful


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How they ONLY gave us one love scene after showing us that is an absolute crime.
THANK YOU and I maintain that The Prince would have been the perfect episode for another C/L love scene, and that Neil Jordan had Cesare be too much of a stubborn ass by rejecting her desperation for even a kiss.


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Even in history the obsession that Cesare has with her neck (possessive) she knew he wasn't going to hurt her, so it never bothered her. I loved how Francois and Holly incorporated that into their scenes at times.
They shipped Cesare and Lucrezia as much as we did, it was there for everyone to see since episode one. Let's all be grateful to them, because I think their enthusiasm woke Neil Jordan up to the reality that he CANNOT ignore C/L becoming lovers. It is destiny and it is chemistry all wrapped up in one beautiful forbidden love story.



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if you listen closely after she says, “I want you,” Cesare says, “No,” as well right before he starts to moan and sob. And that kiss full of pain and devastation that he’s let her down again but trying to soothe her heart at the same time.
Francois was amazing in that scene, because Cesare was trying SO hard to keep his emotions under wraps around Lucrezia in that episode, but it all comes rushing to the surface and he can't contain it anymore; he loves her so much yet he can't be with her in a public way, and now he's part of something that's forcing her to degrade herself, and therefore he hates HIMSELF.

I read two things into her "I want you" declaration: 1) she wants him there, desperately, NEEDS him there as both a punishment for him and to look into his eyes when... Well, we all know what happens and 2) in a broader sense of the term, she will only EVER want one man - Cesare. She's trapped in a marriage to a man she will never love in the way she loves Cesare... Which Season 1 truly predicted (think back to episode 3 of that season).


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I also love the consummation scene. I've truly never seen anything like it. When he inches forward to beckon her to him was so sexy and erotic (that man and his eyes and lips in that scene), and of course, the dance they do with each other while no one is the wiser. It is a game of want and wanting as Lucrezia would say.
I also think he went there for a few reasons. He wanted to get both of them through that ordeal, but he also only wanted her to feel that passion for him after they made love.
I was dreading that scene at first because I figured it was going to be a typical thing where Cesare is left to drown his sorrows over watching Lucrezia be with her husband.

BUT... Dare I say, it's one of the most daring, complex and erotic scenes EVER on TV... Because it was ALL ABOUT CESARE AND LUCREZIA. Seriously. Alfonso is not even there in the eyes and mind of Lucrezia. She is re-living her night of passion with Cesare right there with Alfonso. There's a reason why you never see Alfonso's face in that sex scene - because it has nothing whatsoever to do with him. In those moments, Lucrezia (who had been suffering with having Alfonso be on top of her and having to direct him etc) is finally experiencing true pleasure, through the eyes and soul of her brother. Not her husband. Those moments where the camera is switching back and forth between Cesare and Lucrezia, the panting and pleasure in their faces, it's truly THEIR sex scene. She's imagining him, they're looking into each other's souls.

I clap my hands to Guy, the writer of the ep, because he handled that quite perfectly. And the director, of course, by focusing truly on C/L when she's reaching climax.







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I thought she should’ve been pissed at him in that scene, but I think she knew this wasn’t gonna end. It didn’t end for all of these years the hold they have on each other, so she merely just glares at him at and says, “Come back soon,” trying to touch him, and he freaks out and leaves. I mean if a man can look at her and get off, lord knows what her touch does to him at this point.
I think that's one of the few times I've ever not enjoyed Cesare, because he's all about restraint in that break-up scene. He's holding back, stilted and cold. And that's the point - he's deliberately trying to turn Lucrezia away from him - this is something that Francois has addressed many times; Cesare was putting her happiness above his own in that scene. It didn't mean that he didn't want her, or that he didn't enjoy their night together... It's that it's all becoming too REAL, and Cesare is in no position to take advantage of her (he ISN'T, because she wants it as much as him, but as the older brother, that's the way he views it...) and let's remember that Cesare has given his word to Rodrigo the same that Juan did about finding a wife in Naples to marry ~ for the good of the family ~

Cesare's whole life is mapped out for him, which is tragic in retrospect - the only thing he can genuinely choose is Lucrezia, and the only episode where we saw the two of them have complete control over their own destinies was Siblings, the scene where they finally make love. This is how you can tell that the writers have truly pinpointed C/L as the True Love pairing of everyone on the show. Theirs is the only relationship that isn't bound by treaties and family honor. The power of Cesare/Lucrezia is that their relationship is about CHOICE and FREEDOM.


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That happiness thing he says though after saying he would make her happy, I was mad at him for fleeing like a child because he was scared, and I think we see her pissed at him in the fair scene as he is declaring basically his love for her, and she is more worried about Alfonso. I think that was her punishing him for telling her one thing and doing another, and we see him follow her even though it was cut off here.
Some fans don't like their Relics scene, but I'm in the minority because I LOVED it

The scene was a work of genius - it used the backdrop of a beautiful firework display for romantic lighting and to symbolize sparks of passion between C/L, everything was done METAPHORICALLY to let the audience know that Cesare and Lucrezia are still all about each other... Marriages to other people haven't changed anything. Cesare's words of denial in 3x04 didn't change anything. It's still the two of them, walking amongst the crowds wrapped up in each other, with people looking on suspiciously, and Lucrezia declaring

"If I married a thousand times, it would NEVER be the right man"

and Cesare basically declaring the same, saying that love is not a part of his marriage. He loved Lucrezia full well knowing that marriage is a contract and his heart is only bound to her.

And yes, I agree with you that Lucrezia was rubbing it in his face about her love for Alfonso - it's too forced, too random, it contradicts the pain on her face when she was forced to share a bed with him in 3x04.



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AND can I just say all of his whisper words in S3 are so romantic and sexy - “Everything?” I love that husky whisper of his. Francois has such a sexy whisper voice.
He blows me away and I swear, Francois only ever acted so seductive in his scenes with Holly. He did that on purpose to show the audience who Cesare is TRULY in love with.

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I also know there's going to be a new release of the show in June with allegedly scenes included in it. If you want to make your money Showtime, all you have to do is have a bunch of cutting room floor Lu/Ces scenes. We'll surely buy that set!
Wait, WHAT? Are they releasing new stuff?
I would do anything for the release of a C/L love scene from The Prince I swear, that scene between them where she was talking about the "overwhelming" feeling was DRIPPING with heat and I think Cesare is an idiot for not dropping all his plans for even ONE night with her


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I’d love to discuss S1 because I must admit I took a while to get where you guys got right away. Lol More on that later.
The season of "so when are they gonna do it, already?" as we generally know it.
As was Season 2.

I had no issue with the brother/sister relationship because Francois and Holly were deliberately playing their first scene with sizzling sexual tension, so with that in mind, it doesn't even occur to me most of the time that Cesare and Lucrezia are siblings.
Think of all their touches and glances and nudges and long pauses
They always acted like best friends who are secretly in love with each other.
Forbidden lovers, if you will.

Please share your thoughts with us on Season 1 are there any moments where it really occurred to you, wow there is DEFINITELY something between them that is worth developing romantically? I can think of several.


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Our posters were furious, and this board had a lot of angry posts about it.
I can imagine, Alex I remember being confused, because it felt like I was reading bad fanfiction. I couldn't get my head around the fact that the same man who had brought closure to the show by having Cesare FINALLY declare himself to Lucrezia as her man in the final moments, would write a script that spits in the face of everything that their relationship stood for.




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Lucrezia actually kind of hated Cesare and I couldn't buy, after what we've had in season 3.
That's why I initially thought I had read the wrong thing. It basically points the middle finger at everything we had come to know about L/C as people and as a couple.


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How can Lucrezia go from being hopelessly in love with Cesare to hating him and wanting him dead
The antagonism from Lucrezia towards Cesare (who is clearly still desperately in love with her) was too much to bear. I don't know how I made it to the end of the script


I could understand it on some level if the show had actually depicted her as someone who truly loved her husband, but NO - this is the same woman who declared to her brother "I'm tired of my husband" and "the only thing that never tires me is YOU, CESARE" I feel like Jordan has no sense of continuity, which was proven when Lucrezia was wailing over Alfonso's death when just moments earlier, she couldn't wait to divorce him, but WHATEVER, Neil


I think Neil Jordan knew exactly what he was doing. It was a rebellion thing, he was venting his frustration about the show's cancellation through the script, and he knew he could destroy the characters and not have to answer to his critics anymore.

I have to say, as a HUGE fan of the movie Interview With The Vampire directed by Neil Jordan (starring Tom Cruise in his most impressive role ever), I was SO disappointed, and cannot believe the difference in quality of THAT movie compared to APOCALYPSE. He put so much effort into that movie, and yet he gives us a script claiming to be a true send-off the Borgia family which brings them to shame.
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Last edited by 4brathan&brucas; 04-28-2017 at 05:38 PM
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:11 AM
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Hi, Gwen!

OMG that's long. Okay, I'll reply when I get home from work.
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