PhoenixRising

Thanks for those pics, Arinna!

You double posted. It's okay, FF has been glitching all week.

LindaL100

Arinna: yeah definitely...she already has her son and a spineless husband, however Cesare was the one person Lucrezia wanted, but could never have...unless like I've mentioned before, they run away & start a new life together, but that never happened in the series unfortunately

Alex:

yeah the writing in the last 2 episodes of the series was very inconsistently as far as Cesare & Lucrezia's relationship was concerned, it just makes things more confusing for us viewers to understand just where their relationship stands by the end of the series. Because as we have already pointed out before, Cesare and Lu's behaviors & attitudes towards each other regarding their relationship have been quite inconsistent in the last 2 episodes, especially in the finale. I mean in ep 3x09 during the scene when Cesare & Lu were lying together on Cesare's bed, Lu basically implied to Cesare that she wants him (because she loves him), but she cannot have him hence she said "(I have) almost everything". But later in the same episode during a scene when she was talking to Vanozza, she told her mum that she wanted to leave Rome with her son, which by extension, also meant leaving Cesare whom she supposedly loves very much and is the love of her life. If you love someone so much and you want to be with that person, then why would you want to leave him/her? I guess perhaps leaving Cesare and leaving Rome would've eased the pain of being close to the person you love but not being able to have him. There's no doubt Cesare and Lucrezia love each other very much and wanted to be together, but it must've also been painful for the siblings to love each other so much and be so close to each other yet they could not be together, that's what makes their lovestory so heartfelt but also tragic and sad in this series If you look at it from that perspective, I suppose it makes sense if Lu wanted to leave Rome, I'm sure there are also other reasons why she would want to leave Rome, leaving Rome would also mean leaving Rodrigo, and I'm sure a significant part of Lu definitely wanted to escape from her unbearably controlling & manipulative father. But I think leaving Rome would've also helped Lu to move on from Cesare...if the siblings could've properly moved on from each other, then it certainly would've helped to ease the pain of their forbidden love for each other, so it's understandable. I mean, If I was in Lucrezia's shoes and I was in love with someone whom I know I shouldn't love and was constantly in such close proximity to that person, I think I probably would want to leave that person too or leave some distance between us, just so it wouldn't hurt so much to be so close to that person.
Anyway, in the finale during that very heartfelt conversation between the siblings, Lucrezia once again reaffirmed her strong love for Cesare by saying "the only thing that never tires me is you" and "why are we cursed with this feeling that feels so natural...and good, why is it that every time we are together god just seems to sit in the room with us". But then during that same speech to Cesare, she then said "while you were away (in France), I managed to forget you", and then she finished her speech by saying "and one touch of your hand and god comes rushing back"...it just sounds to me like she was contradicting herself with the things she was saying to Cesare during that scene. I mean, she was basically professing her love for him and telling him how much she loved him...but at the same time she also said she forgot about him when he was in France, all in the same speech, it's confusing And Cesare's behavior in the finale was contradictory too...like I said before, during that same scene when they were having that heartfelt conversation, Cesare pulled away from Lu when she tried to kiss him, which seems to suggest to me that he was refraining himself from giving into his feelings for her, but then in the ending scene he suddenly became so possessive of her and wanted her all to himself...again, it's confusing
I've been trying to comprehend the confusion and what Cesare & Lucrezia's inconsistent and conflicting behaviors towards each other in the last 2 episodes meant and where they stood in their relationship by the end of the series. It makes me wonder whether there was something more and deeper to this conflicting writing, or it was simply just sloppy writing on Neil Jordan's part

Sorry for posting so much again Alex...like I've mentioned numerous times before, I tend to rant when I discuss about topics I love I don't want to rush you or anything so just take your time reading and replying to everything I've posted

BL.Arinna_1982

We all know that in History everything is "maybe". So, who knows, really?

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda!

OMG, I think The Prince was the episode that really perplexed me. Lucrezia seemed schizophrenic in that episode. I could not believe that the Lucrezia at the beginning of that episode was the same person as the Lucrezia at the end of the episode.

Yeah, I mean look at all the bedroom scenes with Cesare and Lucrezia. We saw more of them in bed together than her and Alfonso. And yes, she did say that she has "almost" everything she wants, implying that Cesare is also what she wants. So why would she be so resistant to Cesare in the final episode? She had to have known that Cesare would put her in charge of Naples, and she also mentioned how Alfonso was beginning to remind her of Juan at the end with his drunkenness and jealousy. But her turnaround at the end just made no sense. She'd be Regent of Naples, be married to Alfonso in name, but still be able to be with Cesare, whose wife would be in France. Sounds like a plan to me.

And don't worry, Linda. We don't mind that you post a lot about Cesare and Lucrezia. I tend to rant a lot too at times. And besides, we eventually cover every topic you bring up in time. It gives us more to talk about on this thread.

BL.Arinna_1982

This is why I'm glad The Borgias ended in the way it ended.

LindaL100

Alex:

I don't think Lucrezia was "resistant" to Cesare per se in the finale, because remember she did tried to kiss Cesare and professed her love for him during their heartfelt conversation...it was actually Cesare who was resisting Lu during that scene. Then at the ending scene when Cesare was wiping Alfonso's blood off Lu, that's when Cesare became particularly possessive when he said "you'll be naked, clean and bloodless again...and mine". However did you see Lu's reaction when he said that? Instead of pulling away from him, Lu cocked her head as if to signify that she was receptive of his affections and possessiveness of her, she actually looked aroused by his declaration of love & possessiveness of her in a good like way she enjoyed it
And yes, I think Lu spent more time on the bed with Cesare than with any other man in the series, and maybe vise versa with Cesare too...Lu also seemed to have the tendency to sneak into Cesare's room in the middle of the night and surprise him by seducing him in bed we never saw her do that with any of her husbands or other lovers in the series.

BL.Arinna_1982

You could've thought that season 4 will be centered around them, back then. This is why we were so disappointed when the show ended after only three seasons. However, when I've read the script for The Borgias Apocalypse... I was glad that the show ended how it ended!

BL.Arinna_1982

You could've thought that season 4 will be centered around them, back then. This is why we were so disappointed when the show ended after only three seasons. However, when I've read the script for The Borgias Apocalypse... I was glad that the show ended how it ended!

LindaL100

Arinna: you're right, Jordan's book was a complete 180 degrees turn from what was already established in the series...it was almost unrecognizable and a complete mess that would've ruined the integrity of the series and everything that was already established in the series, if it had been made into a movie that Jordan had proposed. So it's a huge relief that the series ended the way it did.

I think if they had made a season 4, then it probably would've center around Cesare and Lucrezia's characters, although Rodrigo of course would still have a lot of focus because he was still alive by the end of S3, so he would always be a focal point of the series as long as he's still alive. Jordan had so many materials and storylines to work with that would most certainly have been enough to make another full season...such as Cesare's continuing alliance with France and his accumulating dominance in Italy, Lucrezia ruling Naples after Alfonso's death, Rodrigo's ambitions of turning the Papacy into a monarchy, Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship developing even more, and of course there's the many factual events that actually happened which they could also use in the potential S4. It's such a pity that the budget wasn't enough to make another full season....but as far as Jordan's horrible book is concerned, at least the series ended in a more positive way like it did...I doubt anyone would've wanted the series to end disastrously according to Jordan's book.

BL.Arinna_1982

I like your version of season 4.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda!

No, Lucrezia was the one who was more forceful at the beginning of the episode, and she even told Cesare that she was tired of him pushing away from her. And she's tired of Alfonso. But again, by the end of the episode she's completely changed, and now she's fearful for her husband and worried about what Cesare will do.

And yes, when Cesare kissed Lucrezia's neck after wiping the blood off her, she once again closed her eyes and craned her neck, just like she did when he kissed her in the stables and said, "we are the unholy family." She looked like she was about to orgasm when he did that. And she did the same again when she snuck into his bedroom and surprised him, and after he grabbed her neck he kissed it and she fluttered her eyes again.

Oh, that's why I really wish we'd have gotten another love scene with Cesare and Lucrezia. I think we got two with him and Charlotte. And Lucrezia had two with Paolo. But I really wanted just one more scene with Cesare and Lucrezia having incestuous debauchery. And you're right, she was never really that way with anyone else on the show.

LindaL100

Some people think that Lucrezia began to fear Cesare towards the end because of his possessiveness of her, but I think that's not entirely true. Lucrezia was in love with Cesare of course, there's no doubt about that but I think Lu became more scared of Cesare's strengthening alliance with France, she knew that with his French alliance, his planned attack on Naples was inevitable, and she feared for Alfonso's safety, which is understandable. Like I've mentioned before, Lucrezia may not have loved Alfonso the same way that she loved Cesare, but she still cared about Alfonso and did not want him to die, however she knew that Cesare had intentions of killing him or at least harming him, she understood Cesare better than anyone. Juan had already killed Paolo in S2 because of Lu and then later in the season Cesare killed her first husband Giovanni, also because of her. Lu already felt so guilty for Paolo's death, and even though I doubt she felt any sympathy for Giovanni's demise, but Lu still knew that she was also the reason Cesare murdered him. So I doubt she would've wanted to be the cause for the death of yet another husband, which is why she feared for Alfonso's life. But that doesn't mean she "didn't" love Cesare, she did, she continued to love Cesare until the very end...however her love for Cesare doesn't change how she still cared about Alfonso...even despite how increasingly bored and disappointed she was of Alfonso towards the end, but at the end of the day he was still her husband, she still cared about him, just like Cesare still cared about his French wife Charlotte.

Apart from Lucrezia's fear of Cesare's dangerous alliance with France, I think to a certain extent Lu may have started to fear Cesare himself too, I think mainly because of his over-protectiveness of Lu and his increasingly controlling behavior, Cesare was becoming more and more like their father Rodrigo in S3. I have been re-watching the series lately to try to better comprehend the inconsistent writing in the last 2 episodes, and I remembered that in ep 3x09 during the scene when Lu was having a conversation with their mother Vanozza, she mentioned that she felt like a prisoner in Rome, because of the extremely tight security detail that Cesare had appointed to protect her. And I'm starting to better understand why she told Vanozza she wanted to leave Rome, I think the reason is because she wanted to be free. For all of her life, Rodrigo had dictated virtually everything in her life, forcing her to marry all these men she did not love against her own will, she didn't really have any power or say over her own life, and then Cesare becoming so over-protective of her in the last 2 episodes, having security watching her and following her wherever she went 24/7, she felt overwhelmed, so I think she just wanted more freedom in her life. And that's understandable, because even I think her security detail was too extreme...I mean, if I was in Lu's shoes and I had security guards watching and following me everywhere I went 24/7, I would feel overwhelmed and trapped too, it would be too unbearable for me and I would feel like a caged bird, I would probably feel like running away too. So it makes sense to me that she would want to leave Rome, she was too tightly guarded, I think if Cesare wasn't so over-protective of Lu and had he given her more breathing room and more freedom with less extreme security, then she would've felt less trapped and more inclined to stay in Rome.

So I don't think Lucrezia was necessarily "resisting" Cesare in the finale, she still continued to love Cesare even in the very last scene of them together in the finale when they were both on the bed next to the dead Alfonso, Lu's response to Cesare's possessiveness indicated that she's still in love with him in the end. Even in Jordan's disastrous follow-up book, Lu continued to love Cesare, so it shows that Lu's love for Cesare never wavered...she was just upset about Alfonso's death as she did not want him to die.

BL.Arinna_1982

x

PhoenixRising

Thanks for those pics, Arinna!

Hmmm, yeah, Lucrezia even heard the witch tell her that she was in love with someone who was "too close" to her, and not her husband. So obviously the witch could tell, and Lucrezia had to admit that.

I'm gonna reply to the rest of your post soon, Linda. I'm not feeling well right now, so I'm gonna lie down. I'll be back!

LindaL100

Yep the witch knew that Lucrezia was in love with someone else who was not her husband, someone who was "too close" to her which is obviously Cesare and Cesare's wife Charlotte also knew that he was in love with another woman who was close to him, clearly referring to Lucrezia of course

here's a beautiful short Cesare & Lu fanvideo featuring those scenes when the witch and Charlotte both learned that the siblings were actually in love with other people, and did not love their respective spouses:

credit: The Borgia Rose

Although I don't think the witch and Charlotte knew that Cesare & Lu were actually in love with each other they just knew that the siblings did not love their respective spouses...although the witch probably might've had some suspicions that Lu was in love with her brother Cesare, she knew it was someone too close to Lu, and the witch was a psychic afterall, while Charlotte would've been less aware of the truth.

And thanks for sharing the pics Arinna