LindaL100

well technically it's not a fact because we don't even know for sure if the real Cesare and Lucrezia ever had an incestuous relationship in reality, it was all rumors and gossip that were never confirmed.
But in terms of the fictional depiction of the siblings relationship in this series, it's obvious Cesare & Lucrezia were each other's true loves even despite all the ups and downs in their relationship Mario Puzo's envision of Cesare & Lu's relationship was the same in his novel, in Puzo's book Cesare and Lucrezia were also portrayed as each other's real loves till the very end I think the siblings' relationship depicted in the European version 'Borgia' is the same, even though there was less emphasis on Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship in Borgia compared to the Showtime version and Puzo's novel.

BL.Arinna_1982

Actually, I didn't expect The Borgias' Cesare and Lucrezia to get to that plot line. Borgia were on their way at season 1, but they never got there.

PhoenixRising

Aww, don't worry about it, Linda. We love that you post so much. It's great to have this much conversation about Cesare and Lucrezia again. I'll answer your comment soon, because I'm posting on five different boards at once.

BL.Arinna_1982

Five at once?

PhoenixRising

Yes, five at once, Arinna. The Borgias, How I Met Your Mother, Heroes, X-Men, and Legends of Tomorrow, not to mention the Milo Ventimiglia board.

Hi, Linda!

Yes, Alfonso was easy for her to manipulate and control, and after what she went through with Giovanni Sforza I think she wanted to make sure that didn't happen again. But I also think that over time Alfonso bored her with his meek nature. And you're right, he was stubborn about other things concerning Naples. When it came to his family and his city, that's where Alfonso seemed more under Ferdinand's influence than hers. He did seem to get bullied by his own family a lot, and didn't stand up for his own wife, which Cesare despised.

And yes, I think Alfonso dying so soon after she had already lost Paolo was probably another reason she felt grief. She did love Cesare, but she seemed like she felt she had been cursed to always be the death of other men. But this is exactly the reason why she should've just taken comfort in Cesare, because he was strong and would never leave her or allow her to be harmed by anyone. He was that source of love, strength, and comfort that I think she felt she could no longer rely on the rest of her family for, certainly not her father. And Cesare was far more masculine than her other lovers, which probably also had a lot to do with it.

LindaL100

Arinna: Like I have mentioned before, to me it was inevitable that Cesare and Lucrezia would eventually take that next step in their relationship, because the siblings already had a very close, intimate and affectionate bond since day 1, so it was bound to happen sooner or later. Their relationship became a lot more passionate & romantic in S3, but I think that's the only direction their relationship could've went in the series, since their relationship was already borderline incestuous in seasons 1 & 2 anyway, so it makes sense that the bond between the siblings would only deepen as time passed
I think Cesare & Lucrezia's incestuous relationship was more instantaneous in the European version 'Borgia' (while their relationship in the Showtime version was more gradual), but as I mentioned before, their incest storyline seemed to be less important in Borgia compared to in this version and Mario Puzo's novel.

Alex:

Lucrezia did take comfort in Cesare, the siblings were always each other's true source of love, comfort and support and trust, even way back in S1 we saw that both Cesare and Lucrezia were only truly happy and comfortable whenever they were with each other Even though their bond deepened and grew into a much more passionate & romantic relationship in S3, but the siblings have always had that very close and special connection since day 1, which is why I believe they're each other's real soulmates They're each other's true loves, each other's real source of comfort & support and only they can truly satisfy each other The only reason Cesare & Lucrezia were never able to openly love each other or make their relationship public was because their love was forbidden, not even their own family would've approved of their relationship, let alone society, the couple would've been chastised & shamed by society if ever their relationship were to be made public, so the siblings could only love each other and pursue an incestuous relationship secretly. So it's not that the siblings "didn't" want to be together, they DID want to be together, but they just couldn't even though they wanted to. That's why the siblings continuously acted on their feelings for each other whenever they were together and kept their incestuous relationship a secret. If Cesare & Lucrezia's parents had allowed the siblings to pursue their relationship publicly and if society were to accept their relationship, then I think the siblings definitely would've made their incestuous relationship public and they would've only wanted to be with each other and not anyone else. The only reason the siblings had relationships with other people is because they couldn't be with each other, at least not publicly...they were both only forced to marry other people and seek solace in other people, it was not by their own choice, but by the pressures of society and by their father.

As for Alfonso, while Lucrezia wanted to marry him so she could manipulate him, she was excited with the fact that he was very young and immature and weak, Cesare on the other hand felt Alfonso was very unreliable and untrustworthy because of those exact same reasons. It was obvious that Alfonso was weak and spineless and gutless, he did not have the capabilities to defend himself or stand up to his family and thus he was unable to protect or defend his own wife and her son. Cesare has seen first hand Alfonso's weakness and hopelessness against his family, his inability to stand up to or oppose his uncle, and this made Cesare question where Alfonso's true alliance is. Cesare disapproved of Alfonso from the very beginning and as time passed his distrust and disapproval in Alfonso only grew stronger. This is why Cesare wanted Alfonso to leave Lucrezia and leave Rome in the series finale, I don't think Cesare necessarily wanted to kill Alfonso, he just wanted Alfonso to leave his sister alone and to get out of the Borgia family's lives for good. If Alfonso had listened to Cesare's warnings and left Lu alone then perhaps Alfonso would still be alive, but he refused to leave Lu, and that's why he got into that fight with Cesare in the finale. When Cesare had beaten Alfonso to the ground in their last fight, Alfonso should've just surrendered then, but instead he foolishly charged at Cesare and accidentally landed on the sword that Cesare happened to be holding. So technically Cesare did not kill Alfonso, he severely wounded him by accident and then he was poisoned to death by Lucrezia under Alfonso's own insistence...so Alfonso's death was technically more like assisted suicide. Lu was devastated by Alfonso's death though, mostly because of all the guilt that she felt believing that she's the reason he died. Lu might not have loved Alfonso the same way that she loves Cesare, and as much as Alfonso had disappointed her and dissatisfied her, I doubt she wanted Alfonso dead either, she still cared about him even though she did not love him the same way that she loves Cesare.

BL.Arinna_1982

PhoenixRising

Thanks for the pics, Arinna!

Hi, Linda!

That's what Francois said about Cesare and Lucrezia as well. He said that their incestuous, romantic relationship provided them with a safe place that was away from their father's machinations and that was just for them, since they could only really turn to each other for support and comfort. And Jordan did say they'd be each other's soulmates if they weren't related. Again, Jordan contradicting himself. If he knew that early on, there shouldn't have been a problem developing their romance later. And they can only satisfy each other? I didn't know they were that good.

I do think that there were a lot of political reasons for why Cesare wanted Alfonso gone, most especially the fact that he had painted himself into a corner with the French King Louis. He'd given Cesare an army with the understanding that Rome would honor France's claim to Naples, which put Cesare in a tough position as far as Alfonso. I believe Cesare wanted Lucrezia to rule Naples as a regent and representative of Rome, while still pledging loyalty to France, which really would've made Alfonso a lame duck, if you will.

Let me get back to the rest of your post, Linda. I love how much detail you get into. I just need time to catch up to all of it.

LindaL100

Alex:

I think Holliday said something similar about Cesare & Lucrezia's relationship, she said that there were very few people in their world that they could trust, they couldn't even trust most of their own family especially their father and Juan, I think the only other person in their family whom they could really trust besides each other was their mother Vanozza. But it really felt like Cesare & Lucrezia could only truly confide in each other about practically everything and anything, and I think that's one of the main reasons why the siblings had developed such a very strong and close bond very early in their lives, and that bond only deepened & evolved with time
And when I said the siblings could only truly "satisfy" each other, I wasn't just referring to their sexual & physical connection lol I was actually referring to their relationship in general, how they're only truly able to 'satisfy' each other based on their very strong emotional & spiritual connection and not just their physical & sexual connection and passion for each other. Cesare & Lu's relationship wasn't just physical, they also have a very strong emotional connection, and they might not have been an official couple in the series and they both were officially married to other people, but spiritually, Cesare & Lu still loved each other like husband & wife much like Rodrigo & Vanozza's relationship, Rodrigo & Vanozza never married each other and even with Rodrigo's lust for Giulia, deep down in their hearts Rodrigo & Vanozza only truly loved each other spiritually, and I think Cesare & Lu's incestuous relationship is very similar, it really mirrors the relationship between their own parents.

I think there could've been other more political reasons for Cesare wanting to eliminate Alfonso out of Lucrezia and the family's lives, but I personally think the main reason is still his overwhelming distrust in Alfonso, because Cesare despised or disliked Alfonso from the very beginning. Even before Lucrezia married Alfonso and before Cesare formed his alliance with France, Cesare already disapproved of Alfonso as a suitor for Lu, he did not trust Alfonso since day 1. Lucrezia's one of the most important people in Cesare's life and she's probably also the one person he loved the most in the world, and her safety had always been one of his main concerns. Cesare did not trust Alfonso at all to begin with, he did not believe that Alfonso would be able to protect his beloved Lucrezia and he was right, Alfonso could not protect Lu or her son, he was just too weak and spineless, so Cesare had every right to be concerned and distrusting of Alfonso. Hence why I believe that Alfonso's inability to protect his beloved sister is the main reason why Cesare wanted to eliminate Alfonso out of Lucrezia's life. However there could be other reasons too of course, such as Alfonso's increasingly unstable & drunk behavior towards the end of the series, I think Alfonso's more erratic behavior towards the end definitely made Cesare dislike & distrust him even more. I think Cesare was also concerned that Alfonso would eventually become like Juan who was an abusive & pompous drunk, it wouldn't surprise me if Cesare was concerned that Alfonso would become like Juan and eventually abuse Lucrezia like her first husband Giovanni did, so that could definitely be another reason why Cesare wanted Alfonso to leave Lu and eliminate him out of the family's lives for good.

Arinna: Thanks for sharing that pic it's so lovely, I love how Lucrezia's clinging onto her forever protector Cesare and staring so lovingly at him in the pic!

BL.Arinna_1982

I have noticed that they have such pic for every season. They are always too close to each other.

PhoenixRising

Hi, Linda!

Yep, I do think I remember Holly saying something similar, Linda.

I also think the Juan situation might've been another catalyst that united Cesare and Lucrezia. It gave them an enemy that they had to stand against together. Sad that it had to be from within their own family. Remember how united they were in their contempt for Juan, and how angry Rodrigo was at both of them for the way they spoke of their brother? They were already becoming a team then.

I'll get back to the rest of your comment soon, Linda! Don't worry. I just got another board that I'm moderating so I'm a little all over the place today.

BL.Arinna_1982

I hope you get use to it soon, Alex.

LindaL100

Arinna: You're right, in many promotional posters & pictures for the series, Cesare & Lucrezia were always so close with each other, they were often posed together in very intimate and affectionate ways like an actual couple, even in the promotional pics for S1 I think even Showtime or the production crew were probably rooting for this incest couple from the beginning too!

Alex: I agree, I also think Juan's death also contributed to the siblings strengthening bond, their mutual detest for Juan was just another thing they both had in common. I think there were many different reasons that pushed these 2 siblings close together, their mutual distrust in their father and their dislike for Juan are just a few of these reasons.
I think Cesare probably felt he really had no choice but to kill Juan at the end of S2, Juan was completely out of control and he only became worse towards the end of S2, and all the while all Cesare or anyone else could do was reluctantly sit on the sidelines and tolerate all of Juan's erratic and humiliating behavior....until Juan endangered Lucrezia's son at the baptism party, I think that was really the last straw for Cesare and he couldn't tolerate Juan's behavior anymore and felt he had to kill him, he couldn't let Juan continue to humiliate & shame the family any longer.

BL.Arinna_1982

Like Francois told Neil Jordan, he wrote them like that.

PhoenixRising

Well I think Juan had crossed the line when he threatened Lucrezia's baby as far as Cesare was concerned. When he saw Juan pull a Michael Jackson with baby Giovanni, you could see Cesare practically turn red. That, combined with what Juan did to Paolo, pretty much united Cesare and Lucrezia against him. And there's also the possibility that Juan might've wanted Cesare out of the way, thinking that he might challenge him for command of the Papal armies.

I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow, Linda. I'm off work on Thursday so I'll be able to stay up later Wednesday night.