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Old 07-19-2013, 10:30 PM
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Cesare & Lucrezia #36: "I will make you happy, I promise." - Cesare to Lucrezia

Welcome to the 36th
Cesare Lucrezia
Appreciation Thread




If you are a fan and not yet on the list, let us know and you'll be added immediately.




1. ~Phoenix~
2. ღEmrys
3. Neda16
4. xKarlaCruz
5. Andra
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58. Cathangel
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84. Lucresiare
85. Borgia1
86. Lucrezia Borgia
87. AlwaysCB
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Credit






1. Any ship with its own love theme screams "True Love"
2. No couple can make nose-bumping a major turn-on
3. Because he only smiles when he's with her
4. Because even dinner knives ship them
5. Because he constantly misses her
6. Because if anything happens to her, he'd die
7. Because if it's up to him, she'll never marry
8. Because they're like Abelard and Heloise
9. Because any other couple on the show who think they're like Abelard and Heloise are F.A.K.E.
10. Because she'll never love a husband like she loves him
11. Because "I should keep you here in chains. I suspect you would be happier." And so would we!
12. Because she misses his hands and he misses her face.
13. Because he'll never forgive her scumbag husband.
14. Because killing her husband is easy and Cesare doesn't want easy.
15. Because he's the first person in the family to hold her baby.
16. Because she doesn't need her baby-daddy when Cesare is around
17. Because he was pacing like a true father-to-be when she went into labor
18. Because she'll always have him
19. Because even history ships them. They're so canon.
20. Because he carried her over the threshold on her wedding night
21. Because they're the ideal lovers.


Credit




Credit


Fanvids
My Love | My Heart | Sweet Lavina | Flames | Ships | You're In My Veins | Under The Sheets



Fanfiction
The Ideal - Recommendations on tumblr
Dark Paradise - A (hopefully) Comprehsive Borgias Fanfiction List



Links
Cesare ♥ Lucrezia on tumblr
Absolutely Enraptured on livejournal

Credit

star:


"If you read the history, you find these two, this brother and sister, were utterly fascinated by each other. . . ." -- Neil Jordan, TVGuide.ca
". . . it's a story about two people who are absolutely enraptured with each other." -- Neil Jordan, TVGuide.ca
"I kind of want them to be almost the ideal lovers if they were not brother and sister . . . it's so protective as to being almost dangerous." (from Showtime clip, "Justified")
"I think we chose to play pure love." -- Francois Arnaud, nymag.com
"I think Holliday [Grainger, who plays Lucrezia] and I had a really strong chemistry from the start, and I just really enjoy working with her." -- Francois Arnaud, nymag.com
"There is a deep love and affection...They always have their hands in each other’s faces, but it is innocent.” -- Francois Arnaud, antcomic.com
"You must promise you'll be gentle, for this is love, not war, we are engaging in, my dear brother." -- Lucrezia, The Family
"...you, my dear sister, may teach me more about love and loyalty than I have learned so far..." -- Cesare, The Family
Though in every other instance [Cesare] was the aggressor, with [Lucrezia] - even here- he seemed under her power. -- The Family
"I can't imagine loving anyone as I love you in this moment." Lucrezia, The Family
"Come," [Cesare] said, drawing [Lucrezia] close. "I need you now. For you are what is real in my life." -- The Family
"It is not the pain of your kisses you see," she said. "They are the tears of my longing for you." -- Lucrezia, The Family
C: "To bed him is not the joy it is with me?" L: "My dear love, it is the difference between heaven and hell for me." -- The Family
"There will never be anyone like you for me, for you were my first love." -- Lucrezia to Cesare, The Family
"It was with you I first shared the secrets of my body, as well as the secrets of my heart and the most intimate thoughts of my mind." -- L to C, The Family
Suddenly the sweet face of his sister appeared, and he saw it as a sign, a symbol of their love. -- The Family
Her face had been the vision he'd followed into his victories. -- The Family
"I wish no barrier between us, my brother, my lover, my friend." -- Lucrezia, The Family
"...from this night on, all that is left of my passion will rest with you." -- L to C, The Family
"You must live for me... For what other reason should I live?" -- C to L, The Family
L: "Don't you love God, Cesare?" C: "More than I love you?" -- The Poisoned Chalice
L: "And when will I marry?" C: "Never, if I can help it." -- The Poisoned Chalice
"If anything happened to her... I'd die." -- Cesare, The Poisoned Chalice
L: "I think I shall never have another friend like him." C: "You'll always have me." -- The Moor
"If you hate beauty, dear sis, you must hate yourself." -- Cesare, The French King
L: "I've missed those hands." C: "And I've missed that face." -- Nessuno



Credit: May



~Quotes~

Lucrezia: "Don't hate me."
Cesare: "I regret many feelings towards you, hate is not one of them."

Cesare: "The whole world whispers, you and I are lovers. Should we prove them right?"

Lucrezia: "I want to die, brother."
Cesare: "Will you not talk like that, please!"

Cesare: "Can I hold him?"
Lucrezia: "And wake him? That would be cruelty indeed."
Cesare: "I must hold you then."

Lucrezia: "But we never before had secrets between us."
Cesare: "Some things are better left unsaid."
Lucrezia: "So I must divine then, the dark cloud on my brother's soul."

Cesare: "You are criminally well informed, sis. But I trust your soul is still of the purest white."

Lucrezia: "You will be a handsome Cardinal. Let me hug you!"

Cesare: "Lucrezia, sister, share my fortune and my fate. And remember that wherever I may be, a part of me will always be yours."
Lucrezia: "As I also belong to you, brother."

Lucrezia: "No one here loves me as I was loved by you. I've tried everything, Cesare. No one wants to hear our name."

Lucrezia: "My soul dies when I imagine never seeing you again."

Cesare: "Lucrezia, Lucia, forgive me. All will be well if you forgive me. But you must live, sweet sister, live. We are one blood, one heart, one spirit."
Lucrezia: "Cesare, love me!"
Cesare: "For all eternity.

Cesare: "Cesare Borgia and Lucrezia, we shall be remembered. Be faithful only to me not to him, the unholy father who prays to a nameless god. You shall have the world, not the hereafter. And your name eternal."
Lucrezia: "I shall be duchess of Ferrarra, it's enough for me."
Cesare: "In name but nothing more."
Lucrezia: "In name and nothing more."

Cesare: "I promised you a heart, sister."
Lucrezia: "Whose? Your own?"

Lucrezia: "What does it say of us, brother, that you promise me this and I would accept?"

Lucrezia: "Cesare? I would ask you something.”
Cesare: “Then ask and it is yours.”
Lucrezia: “I would ask you to marry me.”
Cesare: “As you wish. My word is my word. We shall run away. Change our names, perhaps. Live out our days in some small fishing village by the coast. where no one will ever guess who we once were.”
Lucrezia: "To Alfonso."
Cesare: "Yes, yes, I know."

Cesare: "My love for my sister outweighs my grief for my brother."

Cesare: "Are you a shepherd of souls now?
Lucrezia: "And I see before me a lost sheep."
Cesare: "Utterly lost, my love."
Lucrezia: "Then, by hook or by crook I shall save you. You may kiss my ring!"

Cesare: "Don't I know how to organize a party for my sister?"
Lucrezia: "Thank you, Cesare!"
Cesare: "And I think I've done well. Look. I'm the one who chose the guests."
Lucrezia: "They're all courtesans."
Cesare: "Did you desire monks and nuns?"
Lucrezia: "Oh, no! No formalities!"

Lucrezia: "So then, I shall become a nun. For I shall never love a husband as I love you, Cesare."



* a family scene with Lucrezia, Cesare and the baby
* a dance laden with sexual tension
* a kiss on the lips
* secret whispers and clandestine trysts noticed by others
* rumors of incest spreading just to see Cesare and Lucrezia reactions
* a fight between them ending in a scene with lots of emotional tension
* angsty scene with the both of them crying
* jealous Lucrezia and jealous Cesare
* Cesare defending Lucrezia's honour, even what he is doing is mostly lying because something did happen. And vice versa.
* more reactions on how others perceive the relationship, e.g. Juan
* Cesare helping Lucrezia take care of the baby
* Lucrezia going after someone to protect Cesare
* Cesare killing someone because of his feelings for Lucrezia
* Lucrezia wishing the baby was Cesare's
* Lucrezia sitting on Cesare's lap at some official function
* C&L riding out to the forest, away from prying eyes
* C&L admitting their love and feelings for each other in a dramatic scene
* C&L talking further about their runaway plan, this time more serious. Calling each other husband/wife, talking about having children and what they would look like etc.
* Cesare standing silenty in the door opening, watching Lucrezia brushing her hair and holding is breath when he sees a bear shoulder.
* Cesare receiving a hairlock from Lucrezia.
* Cesare watching over a dying Lucrezia, after she lost her baby, begging her not to leave him (sobbing). Otherwise he doesn't want to live and everything he does will be useless without her.
* Lucrezia performing a seductive dance, Cesare is watching her while new feelings arouse in him. Perhaps at the famous chestnut banquet?
* Lucrezia seeing Cesare masked
* Lucrezia watching Cesare taking a bath (inside or outside)
* Lucrezia telling Cesare how handsome he is, while stroking his facial features with her finger.
* Lucrezia asking Cesare to give her a child, so she'll always have him near (a bit silly, but one can only dream).
* And of course: a long romantic kiss and a steamy bedscene!!!
* Lucrezia getting drunk after Alfonso's murder and confessing her conflicting feelings to Cesare


Credit

* * *



#1 Lucrezia: "I've missed those hands." - Cesare: "And I've missed that face."
#2 Lucrezia: "And if my husband proves ungallant?" - Cesare: "I shall cut out his heart with a dinner knife and serve it to you."
#3 Cesare: "I beg you not to worry about it, sis. I will find a solution, I swear!"
#4 Lucrezia: "Don't you love God, Cesare?" - Cesare: "More than I love you?"
#5 Cesare lays Lucrezia on her bed and kisses her cheek at her wedding night.



Past Threads

{01}{02}{03}{04}{05}{06}{7}{8}{9}{10}{11}{12}{13}{14}{15}{16}{17}{18}{19}{20}{21}{22}{23}{24}{25}{26}{27}{28}{29}{30}{31}{32}{33}{34}{35}




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In Loving Memory of Christine Dettloff(cheekymonkey503). Rest In Peace, Dear Cheekymonkey. ~ Alex
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:32 PM
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TFTNT Alex

good to see you here
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:13 PM
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You're welcome, Christine. Thanks for the title idea.

Okay, everyone. We will have no more of these senseless arguments about whether or not Cesare and Lucrezia are motivated by love or ambition if we cannot discuss these topics respectfully. Arinna and I are the moderators on this board, which means if there are any issues or disagreements between posters, Arinna and I do the moderating and no one else. If anyone has any problems or issues with other posters you PM me or Arinna about it and we will handle the issue and moderate, as is our jobs. You must show restraint regarding typing in caps and making comments that may be too forceful(remember, I said "show restraint," which does not mean that speech and dialogue are disallowed) and try not to make comments that could seem disrespectful or accusatory. It is our job - Arinna and I - to moderate this board. These issues and disagreements must not become personal and must not be posted openly on the board. It is the policy of FF that if you do have disagreements or believe that you are being treated unfairly that you take these issues up with me and Arinna as your moderators. Then we will take the best course of action to resolve the issue fairly, so as no one takes offense or misinterprets anyone's words.

We now have posters saying that they want to leave the board because they no longer find this an hospitable atmosphere to post, which is the opposite of the atmosphere that Arinna and I wanted to promote here. We wanted The Borgias board to be different from other boards in that everyone could feel comfortable posting their views and opinions without excessive moderator interference making posters uncomfortable, while at the same time insuring that dialogue on the board remain friendly and that any disputes or disagreements are resolved with the upmost care and respect for the posters' feelings. We are a board that must remain as united as ever in light of our campaign to have our beloved show return for at least one final television movie broadcast if not a fourth season, and we must not be divided and fighting amongst each other when we should be fighting Showtime.

As for Cesare and Lucrezia being ruled by romance or ambition, remember that they are semi-fictional characters which are not entirely accurate to their historical counterparts. Their motivations are entirely in the hands of the writers, which is why their behavior can sometimes seem ambiguous or contradictory. This is of course, what makes them so fascinating to watch, as they are hardly one-dimensional characters. But they are also complex characters, and Neil Jordan obviously wanted them to spark conversation as well as fandom. So can we please keep such conversation from dividing us and making anyone feel uncomfortable or even mistreated? And I am including everyone on the board in this statement. I will not take anyone's side or say one person is more in the right than another because it is my job to maintain people's right to express their own opinions as long as they stay within the boundaries of respectful behavior and FF rules.

Remember, please come to me or Arinna about any disagreements or issues, and do not try to resolve the issues amongst yourselves. This is not because I believe you are incapable of resolving issues between yourselves, it just means that Arinna and I want to follow fanforum rules. Such issues should be handled in PMs with me or Arinna, and not on the open thread. As I've said countless times, it is very easy for people to misunderstand each other or take things the wrong way online because we cannot see each other's expressions or hear each other's voices. Internet can seem very impersonal at times, and misunderstandings can happen sometimes. So please maintain civility while still feeling free to post your opinions, as long as they are done in a way that is respectful to everyone. And I do mean everyone. Arinna and I are here to moderate and help in any way possible, so please come to us first before attempting to take things on the threads. I do apologize that I haven't been on as much as I should, given my vacation at Comic-Con. I promise that upon my return I will continue my duties and make this board friendly and open to everyone as well as everyone's opinions. I do not want to lose any more posters on this board. We have lost far too much already.

I hope I can do my job to the best of my ability to do right by all of you. This is the Cesare/Lucrezia thread. Let's not make this thread a place of discord. We are lucky in that we have no shipper wars on this board - no rivals for either Cesare or Lucrezia's affections. I felt we were lucky for that, because I've seen what that kind of friction can cause on other boards. But ironically, we just had to find something to have disagreements about, didn't we? And this is about whether or not C/L place each other in priority or their ambition. And most of this was started simply by a conversation about the 'Banquet Of Chestnuts' episode, and whether or not Cesare put family ambition ahead of love for Lucrezia when he agreed to King Ferdinand's demand for Lucrezia and Alfonso's "open consummation." Can we please just understand that the writers are the ones who ultimately decide this, and we simply look through a glass darkly? There are cases to be made for both points of view. Let's not make them become personal and respect each others points of view, okay? And if anyone was in any way offended by my statement or took anything the wrong way, or misunderstood me, please PM me and let me know. I do apologize, as typing is not quite as efficient as speaking in these matters. Let's keep the board the friendly place we intended it to be. Please?
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:22 PM
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As a poster, I read and understood. Thanks saying this, Alex. I think we're on the same side here, CL side. We are all shippers and we should all be friends because of it.
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Last edited by BL.Arinna_1982; 07-19-2013 at 11:31 PM
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:27 PM
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I think things got out of hand and am glad you addressed them so well Alex. My respect for you and Arinna as mods is boundless I really hope this thread can calm down and people can feel free to post without disagreements again. Got very out of hand from one comment about the consummation scene
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:34 PM
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Thank you, Trina. I'm just trying to do right by everyone on this board and keep this place a real home for Borgias fans.

And I promise I'll be back from ComicCon soon and be posting more.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:09 AM
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We're all count on that, Alex. Too bad you're having bad reception there. Also, I'll be around the whole day today, guys. So if there's something, pls PM me any time and I'll try to answer asap.
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:22 AM
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I only want to say this on yesterdays post of mine:

Quote:
Emma, the sometimes caps lock is just how Fay often brings her thoughts across, it`s not personal. And of course we all analyze each others comments. We have to scrutenize to discuss. In fact it`s often the not analyzing deeply enough that then leads to misunderstandings. I often read the comments a few times before a reply. And sometimes, if I read them again the next day, I find a different meaning.
Kathryn thank you,

This is exactly how I use caps, with no personal note to anyone.Also, of course I think very thoroughly other people comments, as I wish you all do with my comments..
Bec that would meant that you find them interesting at the least..
If we don’t do that..then what’s the purpose of expressing our thoughts, wanting to discuss them?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BL.Arinna_1982 (View Post)
We're all count on that, Alex. Too bad you're having bad reception there. Also, I'll be around the whole day today, guys. So if there's something, pls PM me any time and I'll try to answer asap.
Thank you dear Alex and Arinna.

I just want to say I am happy that this matter solved, and we are all here.

Quote:
That's what I asked earlier. Can you define what ambition exactly drives him to go along with the consummation scene? Because I don't see it as an ambition driven act and maybe your opinion will let me see it as one, who knwos
Natalie, I answer your question in the same post, but you probably didn’t saw it, so I’ll re post here to read if you want:

His ambition was this Ces, back then is still under Rod influense, power, and shadow. He has nothing on his own yet. No papal army, not his own army. He still PLANS to find a way to get an army, and have his own way.

That is whay he goes to France. But he didn't go there yet. He doesn't know if he will succeed in France. So, at this point, Naples is not the enemy for Ces, not untill some time later. Naples is still an ally, an ally, Rome and Pope, NEEDS, that IS WHY THEY MARRIED Lu.Naples, at this point is a crucial ally, with more power thatn Rome, in some point. That is why the Pope, NEEDS Naples.

They NEED Naples and France at this point. When, some time after, Ces will GET FRANCE, AND AN ARMY, HE HAS NO USE FOR Naples. Then and only then.

But as I saw in the post, you said it yourself dear, so…

Quote:
Rodrigo asks and Cesare is very tempted to do just that. He did it once when he killed Sforza and nearly started a war - BECAUSE of LUCREZIA, so he did put his love before his ambitions and he was capable of doing that again but it would imperil them all, including LUcrezia, as their power at that moment was very fragile and they (all three of them R,C,L) needed this alliance. Otherwise why did Lucrezia agree to marry Alfonso in the first place if not for a political reason? Their actions are motivated by political reasons and again, the instinct of survival in order to stay on top of the game but their LOVE is the only thing that is intact and unquestionable. They can question the right and wrong of their decisions, alliances, certain political moves but never their love. Their priorities always change but never their love for each other...

Cesare does care about politics otherwise he would not be the Borgia prince )) but his politics and ambitions are no longer a number 1 priority when Lu's fate is at stake, hence the comment - I don't want Naples yet, I want my sister! Which is perfectly in accord with what I have been trying to point out all along. In other words - France, Spain, Naples can go to hell, he wants his sister first!

Political reason, exactly!
Yes, as I said, If he had to CHOOSE between his ambition and Lu, he will choose Lu.

What he will not do, is to just give up his ambitions, without any reason.

Thus he will MAKE SURE that HIS ENEMIES CANNOT REACH, TOUCH, AND HARM HIS ONLY WEAKNESS
.. ("My one weakness…the one chink in my armor - is you.") NEVER AGAIN (3X09). He will take caution, and messures, to pretect his Lu from any harm…and thus, making his plans, without worrying about her..

too much!! Bec he always will worry, we know that!



Quote:
it worth mentioning that when Ces and Lu have the "it overwhelms" conversation, she still seems to be aware that Cesare has other priorities besides her when he says that he must go. She then gets a little petulant when she talks about him now having his army. She knows that this army and beating Caterina are a priority. I think it's an interesting balance between her being irritated at his other priorities and being even more attracted to him for his thirst for power. As much as it annoys, she wouldn't wish him to be different as she wouldn't long for him in the same way. Kind of a catch 22, I think.
Quote:
She is not irritated about his other priorities, she always knew he had other priorities all his life, she is irritated and becomes petulant because he does not give in and she is tired of his pulling away. His army and beating Caterina is on his agenda at that moment, just as Naples and married to Alfonso was Lucrezia's priority that irritated the hell our of Cesare, but that does not mean their love for each other is a lesser priority than their other priorities...if that's your point...

Kim and Natalie I believe IS BOTH! She is petulan bec he was pulling away, and also bec, while she was making his a love declair..he said he must go! She is a woman in love. She was ungry bec Ces has his mind in his war. But Yes Kim, that ‘unger” last very short…Bec she is a Borgia, and understands the importance of the family to PREVAIL if they want to be safe, as Kathryn , spotted very well

Quote:
But a political animal herself, Lu knows that he has to go. Remember her conversation with Alf, it was in either E6 or E7, that starts with Lu cozying up to Alf saying "can we be happy now...?' She always knows that they will never be safe unless they prevail.
Also, Kim, I totally agree on the fact that he wants him even more for this power thrist of him..As I said in my previous post, Alf is WEAK in character, Lu is Ces 'counterpart' she wants POWER. ("If you don't do it, then i must' regarding the choosing between the two brothers, who is to be King) That is why she cannot LOVE Alf as a man, but as a "child". (Remeber her words in 2x10 "is good , i could love him".)

She didn't succeed. Bec, She maybe NEEDED a husband weak, that she could control him, after Sforza, BUT that's NOT THE kind of man She WANTED. The kind of man who COULD APPEAL TO HER HEART, HER LOVE. She wants someone who lusts for power, and ruling. She wants a man powerfull, WHO AT THE SAME TIME, IS WEAK IN HER LOVING HANDS, BUT POWERFULL NEVERTHELESS.SHE WANTS CESARE.


Quote:
and Fay , I rather thought that Ces went to witness the consummation, because Lu basically made him.

Kathryn,
I probably didn’t express my thoughts well…

this wasn’t what I meant dear, when I said that he did that for her sake also: He was the responsible for their marriage not to consummated, so he desided to be the responsible for their consummation also..Although this hurt him very bad, it was, I think, a way to tell her, “find happiness with him, consummate the marriage, i meant that he wanted Lu and Alf to AT LEAST TRY to have a happy marriage, to give them a chance, so he wanted the marriage to consummate..(3x04 go love your husband) even this, WAS KILLING HIM INSIDE.

So, I don’t think either that he thought the possibility to witness it, not in a million! He is a man in love, he has limits!

Is another thing to say to Lu “go love your husband” and a completely different thing to WITNESS IT! Thus, the wonderful scene, where his WEEPING when he realizes that his “punishment’ for not stoping it, was to be there, with them..(LOVE THIS SCENE..)

But in the end, HE didn’t bear it. In the end, on that dark room, seeing the woman he loves making love to another, his love came on the surface once more, and he take the matter into his hands. HE made love with Lu, he made her orgasm, HE MARKED HER. He made her his, only with his eyes. He wasn’t able to “give her to another man”.


Quote:
Fay, I love your analyze of C/L and ambition. They are both ambitious and occasionally disregard the others feelings to further their own agendas while other times, like the per-consummation scene, they must go forward with things to great pain to them both. I also agree with Alfonso being weak and Lu being incapable of loving him.
Trina Thank you so much! Yes, They are a true couple. That love utterly one another, that could DIE for each other, but SIMULTANEOUSLY CAN HURT EACH OTHER. Yes, hurt each other. Intentionally, OR unintentionally. Bec they dodn’t have other choice, bec they think is for the best, or bec they are mad to each other.

The true love, is no peace … At least, for me!

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Love the "I don't want Naples yet, I want my sister" line so indicative of Cesare's putting Lu's safety above his ambitions. He might not always put her feelings, own ambitions, above his but her safety he does.
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He might not always put her feelings, own ambitions, above his but her safety he does
this!!!

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Cesare isn't the only one putting his ambitions first either. Lucrezia's S2 line "Will you marry me to Alfonso" is putting her ambitions (gaining the Duchess title, a weak willed husband she can control) above his personal happiness. Does anyone else think that scene indicative of Lu's ambitious taking priority too?
i think the same Trina.

This is one of the cases that Hurt eachother, even if they love each other!!

As Ces hurt Lu in 3x04, when didn’t stop the consummation. As he did when in the same ep, she begged him to came back, and he said to her to find happiness, and pul his hand of hers, and went to France. As he continue to do (bec he thought this was the best for her!) when he keep dismissing her love, up until 3x10.
As Lu hurt Ces, when he talk to him about Paolo. As Ces DESPITE the fact that was suffering, from loving her, ARRANGED her to meet him.

She Did the same when he told him in 2x10 that she wants to marry Al, and to love him..
(with such despair in his voice..They both know..It is impossible..”Do you love him sis?”)


as Kim also said
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Their relationship is now more grounded in the "real world" that includes politics, intrigues and power.

I even thought that Cesare's last line is very telling. He's defeated Caterina and has become the warrior and power player that he has always wanted to be. Even his claiming Lucrezia when he says mine is symbolic of both claiming her in a romantic way, but also as he would a conquest or possession.
So, yes they have hurt each other. This doesn’t mean they do not love each other, on the contrary, this hurt IS VITAL part of their love. They suffer, fight, love..In one word, they maturate.


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She definitely wields her power as best she can under the circumstances. I thought the comment that Alfonso makes at the investiture of the new King of Naples is very telling. Cesare wants to know if Alfonso trusts the new king and he basically says that it doesn't matter since it is Lucrezia who is the author of the current situation. She is clearly the power in the relationship and to me she looks quite pleased that he and Cesare now know it.
They are the NOTORIOUS Borgias...Ces and Lu, are Soul mates, eternal lovers, YES. BUT they also are 2 different persons. They have different wishes, ambitions, different way of thinking.Those differences, may be opposite, as in the case of Naples. as I said They are each other “Counterpart” in every aspect: In love, in cleverness, in wits, in diplomacy, in ambitions. (Remember Lu’s words in her mother in wedding board, she has her own ambitions alright, and that is completely RATIONAL. She is a Borgia, to all aspects, good and bad!)


Perfect soul mates..Lu is Ces 'counterpart' she wants POWER also Magnanimous in love…in ambition…in wits. ONLY A BORGIA CAN LOVE A BORGIA afterall...

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I`m not sure that was so much about ambition as to get her father, and his never-ending parade of suitors, off her back. Alf was as good as any, and she knew she could do so much worse. She would have preferred not to marry at all, and she knew that Ces knew that. I don`t think that she saw Alf as weak then, she thought he was 'good'.
Kathryn Lu after her trauma with Sforza, she decided two things, i believe: One never to allow to a husband to hurt her again, physically and emotionally, and to gain power, for not ever again be α "stooge" for anyone, nor her husband. She decided to have her OWN plans, and ambitions, not to be a "pawn" in her father's and Ces ambition, as she said to her mothers also. So, Alf, was perfect. Being his wife, gain power, previleges, became a Duchess. She had control of her fate. On the other hand, Alf was innocent, sweet.. a "clay", for her to concoct him into a man of her Liking. So, she get's everything. A husband that she can control totally, and power as Duchess. SO..BINGO!! THE PERFECT MATE!



Finally...the most AMBIGUOYS part for me in all series...

DOES Rod REALIZES what happens between siblings?? Please, tell me your opinion...I think that 'subconciously" have suspicions, but, he cannot except that in concious...Bec, although Rod has TERRIBLE FLAWS...I think he is a true believer in some point, believes in God, and that he is his "messenger" in earth...so, for him, the siblings relationship, is unthinkable, and chooses to "turn a blind eye"to the truth...
JUST LIKE HE DID WITH THE RIVAL AND HATE BETWEEN JUAN AND CESARE....

Last edited by Fay the Greek; 07-20-2013 at 02:36 AM
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Old 07-20-2013, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Fay the Greek (View Post)
Kathryn Lu after her trauma with Sforza, she decided two things, i believe: One never to allow to a husband to hurt her again, physically and emotionally, and to gain power, for not ever again be α "stooge" for anyone, nor her husband. She decided to have her OWN plans, and ambitions, not to be a "pawn" in her father's and Ces ambition, as she said to her mothers also. So, Alf, was perfect. Being his wife, gain power, previleges, became a Duchess. She had control of her fate. On the other hand, Alf was innocent, sweet.. a "clay", for her to concoct him into a man of her Liking. So, she get's everything. A husband that she can control totally, and power as Duchess. SO..BINGO!! THE PERFECT MATE!

Finally...the most AMBIGUOYS part for me in all series...

DOES Rod REALIZES what happens between siblings?? Please, tell me your opinion...I think that 'subconciously" have suspicions, but, he cannot except that in concious...Bec, although Rod has TERRIBLE FLAWS...I think he is a true believer in some point, believes in God, and that he is his "messenger" in earth...so, for him, the siblings relationship, is unthinkable, and chooses to "turn a blind eye"to the truth...
JUST LIKE HE DID WITH THE RIVAL AND HATE BETWEEN JUAN AND CESARE....
Fay, I think that on a subconscious level she might have chosen Alf for all those reasons, but consciously Lu makes a quantum leap IMO related to her personal development between the time she chooses Alf, and that scene at the seating board. When she chose him I think she wanted status, and a good man, and I`m not sure if in that order. Remember, she would have married the painter, who was a second son, if Rod had let her. But a lot happened in between, and it made her see her world, and all the people in it in a new light. It took even longer for her to get out of her denial about Alf, to see the extent of his "wimpy-ness", and realize the peril it put them in. At the seating board she said she would have to have faith in herself, and getting involved in Naples` politics is the first time IMO she really acts on it, starts "playing the game". Which did not turn out too well, but anyway.

About Rod being aware about what`s going on between Ces and Lu; Kim and I just talked about that yesterday in the old thread. Here is what was said. What do you think?

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Kim:
Kathrin, I also think the conversation where Rodrigo talks about Lucrezia being married to Naples and Cesare to France and that they are two states, one destined to desire the other and be thwarted is also really interesting. Obviously, he is talking about more than two states, but it's telling that their relationship is discussed in terms of political wording and strategy.

Kathrin: He seems to be talking about more than two states, and I have been wondering all along if Rod suspects something, but other than this scene there has never been any indication. Ces certainly looked awfully shocked there for a nanosecond. It is entirely possible for Rod to use the two states as a metaphor to warn Ces off, especially given the turn the conversation then takes with 'and while you are there...find yourself a bride'. But do you think Rod would let him get off the hook so easily?

Kim: It does seem that he is aware that they are too close. There is also that bit when they are talking about Lu having to go through with the public consummation. For just a second, he looks at Cesare just a little too pointedly. I think Rodrigo is a pretty lascivious character and one that is starting to become a bit unsure of his son and the future of the Borgia Dynasty. I'm not sure how far he would actually push it with Cesare.

Last edited by Kadre; 07-20-2013 at 08:44 AM
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:58 AM
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I'm also glad that everything is solved.
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:24 PM
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Alex and Arinna you do a fabulous job! <3
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:05 PM
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TFTNT and THANK YOU Alex







Source: http://shisoueimin.tumblr.com/post/55483459023/y-s

As stupid as it might sound, this gives me happiness. It might be retarded to get happy with a fictional couple, but it's actually what happens to me with C/L and mostly when I watch other TV shows that don't quite know how to handle the relationships and keeps bringing more and more drama to the table and cheating and whatnot.. they sometimes break the greatness of that ship by over exploring them and adding too much drama to the table. I think C/L did great during all seasons and in a way it helped that The Borgias didn't last 10 seasons like some shows do, because it just wouldn't have been the same. Even with the great writing from Neil and Guy, I don't think it would have been possible to keep this relationship as cleverly written as it was with the 3 seasons we had. So well written that I don't think anyone who appreciates the show even with it being very inaccurate, could hate it. I know some people get grossed out with the fact that is incest, tho fictional still incest. But I don't think there's any doubt of how much love there is... and with everyone thinking differently about them as individuals, I think most of us can still agree that the relationship was even tho "sinful" one of the nicest things we've ever seen on TV.

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Old 07-21-2013, 12:59 AM
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It's actually amazing how the most romantic ship I've ever shipped is an incest ship and it's actually Cesare/Lucrezia ship. I mean, just think who they were and for what they were famous for. But I love how NJ represented them in his show.
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:06 AM
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I think C/L did great during all seasons and in a way it helped that The Borgias didn't last 10 seasons like some shows do, because it just wouldn't have been the same. Even with the great writing from Neil and Guy, I don't think it would have been possible to keep this relationship as cleverly written as it was with the 3 seasons we had. So well written that I don't think anyone who appreciates the show even with it being very inaccurate, could hate it. I know some people get grossed out with the fact that is incest, tho fictional still incest. But I don't think there's any doubt of how much love there is... and with everyone thinking differently about them as individuals, I think most of us can still agree that the relationship was even tho "sinful" one of the nicest things we've ever seen on TV.
Certainly the best thought out relationship on TV, because it is extremely complex. I would have wanted to see them overcome the circumstances of Alf`s death in S4. There would have definitely been some cheating though, because it is believed that Ces had an ongoing sexual relationship with Caterina, and the writers would not have passed that up. I was actually looking forward to that as well. A lot.
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:53 AM
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Certainly the best thought out relationship on TV, because it is extremely complex. I would have wanted to see them overcome the circumstances of Alf`s death in S4. There would have definitely been some cheating though, because it is believed that Ces had an ongoing sexual relationship with Caterina, and the writers would not have passed that up. I was actually looking forward to that as well. A lot.
Kathrin, you read my mind. I just posted the same wish in the Cesare thread. It would also clearly have muddied the waters in the Ces/Lu relationship as he still had to feed that part of him that needed to subjugate Caterina. So delicious! And such a complex charater/man!
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