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Old 07-24-2018, 06:06 PM
  #16
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No that was true (see Rafael Sabatini: "The Life of Cesare Borgia")

And true, for a short time in 1501 during the siege of Faenza and then in mid-1502 when Leonardo had money problems he went around the Romagna inspecting fortifications etc., built a canal and drew up maps for Cesare in Tuscany, e.g. of Imola.

Charlotte d'Albret was the sister of the King of Navarre.

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Old 07-25-2018, 08:13 AM
  #17
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True.

When Lucrezia fled Naples, Cesare gave her a palace, putting Paolo Orsini in charge of her protection, and told him he wanted to know where she was and where Alfonso was at every hour of every day. He did this so that he would know when they could be alone together without her husband catching them.

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False? I can't find anything on that.
It was false, Alex, I made it up about Lucrezia having 12 toes
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Old 07-25-2018, 05:51 PM
  #18
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True?


Okay, thanks Lila and Nina.


Machiavelli never met Micheletto Corella.

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Old 07-25-2018, 08:01 PM
  #19
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False. Micheletto was by Cesare's side throughout his campaigns and Machevavell spent many months with Cesare.

Alex, yes, it was true. Cesare did that to be alone with her when he knew Alfonso wouldn't catch them. That's why Lucrezia warned him that Alfonso "could cause public scandal" if he found out about them. It was the scandal scene - one of my favorites!

Cesare began formulating his plan to kill Alfonso and take Lucrezia for himself in "Lucrezia's Gambit" 3x07.

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Last edited by Mignonette; 07-25-2018 at 08:12 PM
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:37 PM
  #20
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True, I think. He already knew what would happen if he gave Naples to France.

Thanks, Lila! I was hoping that was true.


Cesare Borgia subjected Girolamo Savonarola to the trial by fire in real life.

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Old 07-27-2018, 12:46 PM
  #21
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False.

There is a vast amount of documented evidence that Giovanni Borgia was Cesare's son.

True or False?


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Originally Posted by PhoenixRising (View Post)
True, I think. He already knew what would happen if he gave Naples to France.

Thanks, Lila! I was hoping that was true.
Your welcome, Alex

Yes, it's true: Cesare was at Vanozza's house and they were discussing how Lucrezia was always watched in the palace in Naples. He said she should wear a veil to disguise her true feelings (referring to her love for him!). Vanozza said "she chose this husband, Cesare, she loves him". Cesare scoffed, closed his eyes, and said "am I the only one who's disappointed in him?" - because he was too spineless to stand up to the king for her to have Giovanni in Naples. Vanozza said a french presence in Naples "would end her marriage for good". Cesare sat down his wine glass and you could see the gears turning in his head! He had an AHA moment and his plotting of killing Alfonso and taking Lucrezia was born.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:39 PM
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False. Giovanni Borgia, Infantus Romanus, was born in 1498 and soon Giovanni Sforza started rumours that he may be Lucrezia's child with either Pedro Caldron, or her father who wanted Lucrezia for himself and therefore had the marriage annulled (it is worth noting that Sforza wasn't as physically abusive as depicted on the Showtime show... so it was more petty that he repaid the humiliation of the divorce somehow as shown but still may have clung to that marriage and Lucrezia as shown on the Canal+ version). So the rumours of incest were mostly directed towards Rodrigo but later people threw Cesare and Juan also into the mix. Three years later two papal bulls were issued, one said that Giovanni was the child of Cesare with a woman not mentioned in the document, the other did the same just saying that Rodrigo was the father. So that strategy basically leads historians to believe one thing that the first papal bull declaring Cesare the father was false – it was put in place to avoid a scandal. Unlike for the pope it was no big deal for Cesare to have fathered and illegitimate child. The second bull, which is believed by historians to reveal the truth about Giovanni's parentage, was issued so that by Rodrigo claiming him as his son he was have secured Giovanni's rights to his inheritance.

Giulia met her second husband, Giovanni Capece Bozzato, Baron of Afragola for the first time at Jofré's and Sancia's wedding?

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Old 07-27-2018, 03:41 PM
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False? She married him after Rodrigo's death according to the history I read.


Gioffre and Sancia had only one child.

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Old 07-27-2018, 04:50 PM
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False they did not have any children.

But no, that was actually true. While they married in 1506 after Rodrigo's death, they first met at Sancia's and Joffre's wedding in 1496. After all, Giovanni Capece Bozzato was a Neapolitan nobleman and part of Sancia's father's, King Alfonso II., court.

Before Cesare pursued marriage with Charlotte d'Albret his eye was on Carlotta of Aragon, a cousin of Sancia's, and the heiress of King Frederick of Naples as he hoped that marriage to her would get him the Neapolitan crown.

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You might want to rethink marrying the lines "Kids are dead! Kids are dead!" ("Happy days are here again.").
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:54 PM
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True. I had to look that one up.


Cesare had Sancia take care of the Infant Romanus.

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Old 07-27-2018, 05:34 PM
  #26
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Uncertain. It's possible he joined his nephew Rodrigo earlier when Sancia was still alive but the first sources I know of after Alexander VI's death – there was a gap following Cesare taking him and his illegitmate children to safety in the Castel Sant'Angelo during the interregnum and we only know he stayed with Rodrigo and Isabella of Aragon in 1506 before going to Capri and eventually to stay with Lucrezia in Ferrara. It is known that Giovanni had tutors and guardians while Alexander VI lived, namely Cardinal Cosenzas and Cardinal Ippolito d'Este –*Lucrezia's brother-in-law by her third marriage. They were probably paid to take care of his education.

Cesare had two natural children who he legitimized. One was daughter named Camila who eventually became a nun.

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Old 07-27-2018, 05:47 PM
  #27
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False. Louise Borgia was his only legitimate daughter. His son, Girolamo Borgia, was never legitimized. Lucrezia is the one who had a daughter who became a nun.


Machiavelli used Cesare in The Prince as a cautionary tale, as Cesare's reign was too dependent on his father, and once his father died his kingdom collapsed.

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Old 07-27-2018, 06:47 PM
  #28
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Well, that's not correct what you said. Yes, Louise was the only child that came from his marriage and was therefore automatically legitimate. However, both of Cesare's natural children Girolamo and Camilla were eventually legitimized. Camilla grew up under her aunt Lucrezia's guardianship in the Convent Corpus Christi in Ferrara where she became a nun and later abess. Only upon taking holy orders she took the name of Sister Lucrezia.

False. I mean it'd be wrong to reduce the whole book to that. It's been a while that I read it but I think in Chapter 11 Machiavelli discusses 'Ecclesiastical principates' and how the Borgia approach almost worked but not quite. I think that was written as a proposal to the Medici who then came back into papal power to do better. All in all, I think it's more a piece of political philosphy, firstly discussing the different sorts of princedoms/states and how they are ruled and in the second part debating the qualities of what makes a ruler. It is said though that the last part is surely influenced by his having known Cesare.

Joffre's second wife Maria de Milà was a lady in waiting to Henry VIII's first wife Katharine of Aragon.

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Old 07-28-2018, 05:00 PM
  #29
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True.

Really? I didn't see that in the stuff I looked up. It said that Girolamo married Isabella Contessa di Capri, and that Lucrezia went to Ferrara to the court of her aunt, the elder Lucrezia, but that's all. It didn't mention they were legitimized. They need to update that stuff.


Ludovico Sforza commissioned Leonardo da Vinci to paint The Last Supper.

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Old 07-30-2018, 02:17 PM
  #30
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True

Machiavelli believed that Cesare and Lucrezia were incestuous.

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