Nikki K

Borgia (2011) by Tom Fontana
The Borgia (2006) by Antonio Hernández
The Borgias (1981), BBC Miniseries
The Conclave (2006) by Christoph Schrewe and Paul Donovan
Lucrezia Giovane (1974) by Luciano Ercoli
Lucrezia Borgia (1922) by Richard Oswald and Harry Scheff
Lucrèce Borgia (1935) by Abel Gance & Léonard Marchand



Here is a website I found that might prove useful: Bibliography of the Borgia Family. It's not exhaustive but there's a good amount of stuff there.

Original Sources: Burckard's diaries
(1) Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis protonotarii apostolici et episcopi hortani, cappellae pontificiae sacrorum rituum magistri : Diarium Innocentii VIII, Alexandri VI, Pii III, et Julii II tempora complectens : nunc primum publici juris factum, comment
And the English translation:
(2) Pope Alexander VI and his court: extracts from the Latin diary of Johannes Burchardus; : Burchard, Johann, d. 1506 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive


So far discussed or mentioned:
"The Family" by Mario Puzo
"The Borgias - Celebrated Crimes" by Alexandre Dumas
"The Borgia Bride: A Novel" by Jeanne Kalogridis
"Madonna Of The Seven Hills" by Jean Plaidy
"Light On Lucrezia" by Jean Plaidy
"Poison" by Sara Poole
"The Borgia Betrayal" by Sara Poole
"Lucrezia Borgia: Life, Love and Death in Renaissance Italy" by Sarah Bedford
"The Pope's Daughter: The Extraordinary Story Of Felice Della Rovere" by Caroline Murphy
"Vanozza, a novel of the Renaissance" by K.T. Wills
"The Life of Cesare Borgia" by Raffael Sabatini
"Lucrezia Borgia" by Ferndinand Gregorovius
"Borgia" by Klabund
"The Borgias and their enemies: 1431-1519" by Christopher Hibbert
"Angela Borgia" by Conrad Ferdinand Meyer
"Der Unheimliche Papst" by Volker Reinhardt
"The Worst Pope - Alexander VI" by Luigi Villari
"Julius II. - The Warrior Pope" by Christine Shaw
"The Pope's Mistress" by Frederik Berger
"The Track of the Foxes" by Fabio Pittorru
"The Mirages of Naples" by Isaure de Saint Pierre
"Beatrice D'Este - Duchess of Milan, a study of the Renaissance" by Julia Cartwright
"The Borgias" by Michael Mallett
"A Renaissance Tapestry - The Gonzaga of Mantua" by Kate Simon
"La Tigressa - The Madonna of Forlì" by Frederik Berger
"The Pope's Daughter" by Frederik Berger
"O César o nada" by Manuel Vázquez Montalbán
"The Ground Is Burning" by Samuel Black


All fanfic can now be found HERE: Dark Paradise which I will try and update as often as possible. If you encounter that I missed anything, let me know and I shall add it instantly.

red velvet

This is a good idea . We can compile a list of books, movies, even them in art. I think this could lead to some very good discussion, maybe even a book club or something

Nikki K

On amazon there seem to be heaps of books: novels and more (semi-)non-fiction œuvres based on the Borgias. Perhaps we can make a list? If someone has read something give a synopsis and a few words on what we liked about it or not, and how things are described compared to the Showtime show and what we know as historical facts?

We could also discuss things we watched or read in a bookclub-y manner?


Perhaps I could look into some books and post their synopses and then we can decide what to do? Since we both have it and others seemed to have read it, perhaps start with "The Family"?

That being said, I just finished skimming through Alexandre Dumas' - "Crimes of the Borgias". It's supposed to be non-fiction and mostly an account of political plots of the time. Once in a while he cites his sources which mostly comprise of Johann Burchard and Machiavelli. For what we would call non-fiction these days, I still find some pretty illicit parts of the book had no citations which today obviously would not fly.

One thing I found remarkable was that he claimed Lucrezia had relations with Juan also and that Cesare had him killed because of it (and for his job and priviliges). No mention was made about Sancia having an affaire with anyone, but Dumas wrote that Roderigo positioned her on a cushion at his feet in front of the papal throne for some time when he held audience. Again, this is lacking a good citation.

red velvet

Well i know people in the CL thread had wanted to do a discussion of the Family But it would be good to figure out what we would want to discuss after that

Hmm, weird how their non-fiction is more like our historical fictions. Because it does sound like there are a lot of rumors in there that can never really be proved. It does sound interesting though, and I think it could be fun to talk about how people throughout history have perceived the family

Nikki K

Here is the link to the book: Alexandre Dumas - "Celebrated Crimes of the Borgias"

And yes, I agree. As I said, I mainly skimmed through it... some things were just a bit too lengthy in terms of the Medici did this, the Sforzas did that, the Orsinis opposed something else.

I found the beginning interesting, describing that Roderigo was perfectly happy in Spain with no ambitions until his uncle Pope Calixtus III. made him a cardinal and order him to Rome. Again, I wish there would have been some citations. I mean it's not like he doesn't cite any contemporary sources at all but... sometimes he puts a lot of judgement in his text and it's not quite clear where it's coming from.

Maud&Danny

I've started to read The Family and not enough Cesare/Lucrezia, the scene where Papa Borgia watches his son and daugther making love is disturbing but would have been ten times better without him. Lucrezia basically spend less time with her brother once Alfonso was in the picture, she wasn't answering to his letters, she was paying more attention to her husband and THAT is what made Cesare go crazy. Most of why he killed Alfonso was jealousy, he thought his sister loved him less...I loved the fact that he was ready to leave his cardinal's duties in order to legitimize the child he shared with Lucrezia. And of course his last when he died was great. His last thoughts were for Lucrezia, thinking about her and seeing her face.

Everyone seemed also convinced that Cesare killed Juan especially Sancia. She tried to make Gioffre and Lucrezia see how their family really was, how Cesare and Rodrigo has basically a bad effects on them and their lives.

Nikki K

Well, at least there is CL which I find encouraging. I browsed through some book descriptions on amazon and it was all about "redeeming" Lucrezia and one book was even about how Lucrezia was only nice to Cesare, especially after he murdered Juan, because she was afraid of him. When I read that review, all I thought was... nope, not going to read that one.

The above mentioned book is "Madonna of the seven hills" by Jean Plaidy

As for Sancia on the show... I feel we need a lot more development of her character. Right now I cannot see her wanting to convince anyone of anything except to bed her. And that being said, I like her. I really do. But as of now, I'm not convinced she cares a lot about the Borgias and their politics, let alone who Lucrezia perceives her family and that she shouldn't do so.

Maud&Danny

^^I agree with you about Sancia but that is until her brother is killed of course. Sancia and Lucrezia have a close relationship in Mario's book, they call each other "sister" which is why I find surprising that they decided to have Lucrezia be jealous of Sancia's beauty in the show especially as she herself is considered to be the most beautiful woman of her time.

Lucrezia afraid of her brother who's supposed to be the love of her live? Yeah I won't believe that one. Can't see that happening, she knew him better than anyone even better than he knew himself. She loved him and dare I say she was in love with him.

Nikki K

Jean Plaidy wrote a sequel called "Light on Lucrezia". I think what bugged me most - next to the whole she is only nice to Cesare because she is scared of him part - is that she is depicted as an innocent woman that just wanted a loving husband and live in the countryside.

As I said somewhere else, it does appear that the Borgias had a PR problem. But on the other hand, how does the song go "There ain't no smoke without fire". I cannot believe that EVERYTHING is misrepresented slander by third parties and EVERYONE is just so misunderstood. So I'm really fed up with these books that paint Lucrezia as an innocent and naive victim all the bloody time. I think it's just as bad as saying she was the whore of Babylon etc. etc. -- I wonder why people are not able to paint a more complex picture.

As for Sancia - okay, true that. She might feel panic when Alfonso is killed, probably being worried she might be next and looking for allies.

Speaking of Sancia, there is another book where I wanted to eat my fringe when I read the synopsis:

"The Borgia Bride" by Jeanne Kalogridis

I was interested at first because I wanted to learn more about Sancia then I read some of the reviews. In this book Cesare is madly in love with Sancia and wants her to divorce Joffre so he can marry her. Meanwhile Sancia doesn't really want to marry Cesare, in addition to that she has to fend off Rodrigo's advances and constantly be on her toes because Lucrezia is so jealous that Cesare is completely enamoured with Sancia and would give up everything for Sancia. I was all: "Whhhaaat???" I mean, fiction is fiction but this is completely bewildering.

Should get started with "The Family" so I can throw in my 2¢.

Nikki K

Okay, I hope that won't be too lengthy and at least partially insightful... but I can't guarantee for it. In any case, I hope that you guys, M&D and Chrissy and EVERYONE, will join in on the discussion. That would be super!

"The Family" by Mario Puzo

In general, while the book had some good lines and observations on CL, all in all I found the prose to be pretty uninspired. It was very description-laden, very little dialogue and the dialogue was a problem in so far, as I found the author didn't find distinct voices for each one of the characters. I wished the characters would have come to life more, would have been more vivid and vibrant but that seldomly happened.

Favourite Parts

Perhaps the most touching of all the CL parts - which I agree with M&D on were too little of - was the one at the cabin by the lake where she asks him to take off his masks because he will always be beautiful to her. I found that truly moving and it made my heart ache for them. Another plus of that scene was that we finally saw some light-heartedness of these two characters, Lucrezia joking around... it just filled me with glee and happiness that despite everything they still had these moments.

Sancia telling off Rodrigo after he refused that she go to Nepi with Lucrezia and Joffre. I enjoyed how the author described her - fearless bordering on mad with her hair all undone, clearly very agitated. And of course the pope - calculating, mocking and threatening at the same time. I could picture Irons and Emmanuelle play that scene on the show and it would be great.

Probably the best thing about the book was Rodrigo's death scene and his conversation with Joffre. Here he was, all his life, questioning if Joffre was his child, having a lot of disdain for him. And now in the hour of his death things become clear to Rodrigo: Joffre had Lucrezia's passion and love (for Sancia), he was capable of Juan's impulsivity as well as his debauchery, he was definitely capable of murder like Cesare and as his brother he didn't have all too many scruples and guilt about the actual crime, but mostly what it did to people he cared for and, unlike Cesare, to his soul. I think that's what Rodrigo thought when he realised that it was Joffre who poisoned him: His apology for the neglect towards his son was genuine, and when he said "You were the best of all of us." - I think it meant just that Joffre commanded Rodrigo's admiration through this well planned act of patricide. It was unexpected and I think Rodrigo possessed the right amount of cynicism for thinking that in a way he had it coming because he always underestimated Joffre. It felt to me like he said: "I finally see I was mistaken, you possess all the Borgia traits combined. My fault for not realising this sooner. Chapeau, well played with that poisoning plot." - That was one of the few times where I felt the characterisation was excellent, not just of Rodrigo but also of Joffre who at first is still bitter, thinking his father doesn't know him at all, when he praises his virtues. Until he realises that Rodrigo does know. Which on the one hand makes him feel shame - because unlike Cesare, he still is concerned for his soul - but on the other hand, I think it gave him peace to be finally excepted by his father.

Parts I didn't like & honest to goodness faiiiiil

What made me so sad towards the end of the book was Cesare's despair. All his battles and fights were just about tempting fate, challenging Death. I think when he realised that Lucrezia and him would never be able to be truly and happily together, he developed a death wish. Which made me incredibly sad for him.

I didn't understand what Lucrezia saw in Alfonso apart from good looks, perhaps some shared interests and the fact that she could openly live that relationship. Now don't get me wrong, it's a completely healthy response - especially in real life. However, it made my heart ache that she was able to break with Cesare, while not completely, but still to some degree - and all that by just plain reasoning mixed with a bit of lust. It also made me sad because I would have liked Lucrezia to be more fierce... okay, perhaps not Catherina Sforza bat!**** crazy but still - she had her little acts of defiance against Rodrigo and Cesare but ultimately she was still a pawn in their game, never being able to gain more power or play her own. Which I find sad. As I said, I don't think she should be Buffy the Vampire Slayer or whatever contemporary heroine but still... a bit more intrigue would have been interesting.

Plot-wise I understood why Sancia had to be raped in the dungeon. Otherwise Joffre wouldn't have found the guts to poison his father. It was still a hard part for me to read. There is little in this world that compared to rape when it comes to cruelty. And it made my heart sink. I was also annoyed that we didn't hear anything about what happened to Joffre and Sancia after Rodrigo's death. It was an annoying lose end. One short paragraph on that would have been satisfying enough for me as a reader.

Now for the faiiiiiil -- so okay, I get why the Vanozza/Rodrigo conversation about Cesare's paternity had to take place. It had to explain Rodrigo's reluctance to give him reign over the papal army. After all, if he was not his son, betrayal would be even more possible. However, that's where the faiiiil comes in: Vanozza was able to make Rodrigo doubt his paternity, but apparently she wasn't able to convince Della Rovere that he was Cesare's father either. I mean, why bring that up? It would have been enough to say "oh, Rodrigo thought Cesare might be fathered by one of Vanozza's husbands" and then clarifying things. But by bringing Della Rovere into this, there's a problem in my opinion: Vanozza is described as very persuasive, so I would think that she would have succeeded in her plot of making him at least consider his paternity of Cesare. It is also described that Vanozza was Della Rovere's one and only love. So one would think that if he had had at least some doubt in his heart that this could be true, that he was Cesare's father, a child born by the one woman he loved, I don't think he would have given a green light to his abduction and torture. By bringing up this plot twist - indicating that despite Rodrigo is Cesare's father, Della Rovere at least can't be all that certain that it might not be him - I was very disappointed that we didn't at least get some insights in Della Rovere's thoughts on the subject. He might have come to hate the fact that he loves Vanozza and be violently angry towards his weakness. Which then again could explain why he double-crossed Cesare ultimately. But sadly, this was an opportunity to create intrigue and good character development that was completely missed.

And there was the fact checking faiiiiiil: The pope's infallibility that was mentioned throughout the book? That only came up with the first Vatican concil in 1870. And the first pistols only came up around 1520 when Cesare was already dead. Where were the lector and the editor on this?

The thing that broke my heart most was the fact that both Cesare and Lucrezia in the end saw their love as wrong in a way. As her father condemning them to sin. That made me sad. Of course it didn't end well but I wish they would have been able to stand by it and acknowledge openly what their subconcious knew that what they had was love and that it was right.

So ... that's what I got so far. I might have forgotten heaps of stuff. Two more things I thought about when I contemplated the book and the possible future of the show:

(1) I hope François won't have to hide his beautiful face under ridiculous masks all that much.

(2) That Charlotte D'Albret interlude was super short. So he spent a few weeks with her at a summer home, got her pregnant, then went to war in Italy for eleven years only thinking about how he cannot have Lucrezia, he gets captured and promises to be a better husband, but then escapes and fights more battles this time together with his brother-in-law, but still possessed by Lucrezia and his death wish. Oh my. It would be so hard to watch. But on the other hand, it'd be satisfying for us CL shippers to not see Charlotte play a prominent role in his deep and true affections.

Okay, now... thoughts??? Would love a discussion!

Nothing Else Matters

^^IA, with so much of your review.

I do think they will have incorporate the mask since it's so much apart of Cesare's story. Though I hope it's more towards the end of the series.

I don't really want to see much of his wife. I think historically Cesare really didn't see much of his wife either.

I disliked that so much.

That bothered me as well too. Though when I did my own little Borgias research I didn't find much on what happened to Joffre after Rodrigo died. I didn't look that hard but I didn't find a lot of details on him.

While I liked the fact that Cesare was so explored it kind of took away from Lucrezia. The book painted a clear picture of what Cesare's life was like when Lucrezia wasn't in it. With Lucrezia it was like she was just going through the motions after Alfonso died. She never returned to life and I just didn't buy their love was so great she was so broken afterwards.

I was going to read that book but then I read the description. No, thank you. I have no desire whatsoever to read about Cesare being madly in love with Sancia and Lucrezia being all jealous. No, Ma'am.

The moments when they were happiest were my favorite parts. I also loved the scene where Cesare goes to the convent. Lucrezia faints at seeing him and he realizes that she is pregnant. He immediately pissed off because he think it's someone elses. When he finds out the child is his. It would have been nice to get scenes where Cesare and Lucrezia spent time with their son. Especially Cesare since the baby lived in his quarters. I disliked how Lucrezia did love her other children with Alfonso more than her son with Cesare. Ugh. Those two just broke my heart.

Ugh. I can't believe I was happy to read about siblings having a child together. I need to look at my life and my choices.

red velvet

I'm still not very far in the family, and reading through lengthy posts is hard for me to catch up, especially when I've just got on for the day. But I do want to jump into the discussion

Nonie

I'm not a fan of the author's work. I read three books by her about King Henry and I couldn't get into the story as I would have like to

Wow, that's a weird one It's like taking fiction to another level

Nikki K

Thanks. We can absolutely talk about the things you don't agree with - I love hearing other people's opinions. It's only interpretation after all.



That's what I mean. I guess it must come but please... don't make it a prominent feature throughout seasons and seasons. Leave us something pretty!


I can't really see how she herself can be of much purpose. The that he married her and how that changed political alliances, that's something else. But her as a person. I don't know, doesn't really seem all that relvant. Perhaps I should look for a biography on her at some point.



I think that the way Joffre and Sancia were depicted in 'The Family' can be almost entirely seen as fiction. Not bad fiction but yeah. I liked that she was honest - told him that yes, at first she wasn't taken by him but that he grew on her. That was nice. And it seemed like that was enough for him. -- As for reality, after Sancia died, Joffre married some Spanish cousin of his and moved to Squillace permanently. Unsurprisingly, because Rome and Naples and whatnot must still have been dangerous for a Borgia even if it's the one that was the most unpolitical and least controversial.


Exactly what I thought. The characterisation of Lucrezia was incredibly weak and her personality and her thoughts and feelings were mainly unexplored in this book.



Though I wouldn't mind to read a bit about jealous!Lucrezia, the whole Cesare madly in love with someone else part is just ... let's say it asks for too much suspension of disbelief. Especially with Sancia - because the way I see it - she was someone lots of men were in lust with but if anyone, it was only Joffre who wanted to love her personality as well. Which - at least in the show - seems possible when/if she showed him kindness and gentleness when he was but a child frightened to be a (good) husband.


Yes! That was a good one. Also one of my favourites when he went to Ferrara in disguise to check on her when she was ill. And her realising it was him and that he was there for her.


That would have been nice.

I didn't pick up on that so much. I just attributed it to the fact that she didn't see her son that often. Same later with the first Alfonso's children - they had to stay in Rome and were not allowed to go to Ferrara with her. Sometimes I think that people in these days... were not really as protective and bound to their children as we are nowadays. I mean most of them grew up in the care of a wet nurse, then going on to tutors, not seeing their parents very often. At least in these circles.

Nonie - I'm kind of glad to hear that. As much as I would like to read a book with a strong-minded Lucrezia... I doubt I could get over the whole "She is only nice to her brother because she is so scared of him" part... that's just so depressing. I mean I can see her being frightened by some of the choices he makes - but frightened in a sense of, I worry about what you have become, I wish you were so much happier, I wish we were so much happier kind of sense. And as for the other book, yeah, it seems like this is giving fiction a whole new meaning.

Chrissy - No worries, I'll wait (im-) patiently.

Nikki K

I wasn't really sure how to feel about Sancia being depicted as having so much love for her brother Alfonso. I never read anywhere that those two were all that close. I think I could see it in the light of "OMG, they killed him and I could be next, these bloody bastards"-rage moments.

I didn't mind that part so much on the show and don't see it as irreconcilable with Lucrezia and Sancia becoming friends. I mean... we all have friends where we are slightly jealous of some of the things they have. So... just a thought. And what the scene gave us was Cesare telling Lucrezia that she is so beautiful.