Nikki K

I had forgotten they had a daughter, then you mentioned her and I looked up her name.

Look, the thing I resent is not Catherine Tate, the vulgar comedian. The thing I resent is Donna, the vulgar companion – she had no class, no education and yet they tried to sell her to us as a rolemodel of some sort. I'll never forget that dreadful Sontaran episode, where the propaganda line was basically –*it's okay you're better off without an education, just be rude and annoying and your street smarts will take you anywhere. Urgh. Also, Donna was basically this little girl who was constantly abrasive but then suddenly concerned that she may not get a man (though after the backlash from the Martha storyline, RTD avoided making the Doctor that man)...

Yeah, my problem with "Sherlock" is that Moffat is basically like 'loooook how brilliant I am'... it's so tiring. I mean "Elementary" is very procedural, it's not the most brilliant show on the planet but it's still entertaining and I just love Lucy Liu and think she makes a great Watson.

It was the second episode arc after "The Ribos Operation".

PhoenixRising

You forgot that River was their daughter? It was the most absurd thing that Moffat did on the show.

Ah, I see. I never really minded Donna, but then I really wasn't watching the show at that point, so I didn't get much of her "humor." I didn't start watching DW again until Matt Smith came along.

Well, Martha was just a weak character all around. She was more like a companion from the 5 through 7 era.

I get what you mean. I just think that both shows eventually bored me after a while. But I agree the reason that Elementary has lasted longer is that it's more procedural and less gimmicky. And Lucy Liu was great. But I'm now watching Scorpion.

Ohhh, yes! The Ribos Operation! I remember I spent an entire summer watching The Key To Time back in the 80's.

Nikki K

I like the actress who played Martha but the episodes were sadly mostly crap that season, she deserved better.

I'm always annoyed when people try to sell being uneducated as something quite all right because who needs an education anyway. That was also the difference I felt between Rose (/Martha) compared to Donna –*the former being clearly excited and curious about learning about/discovering the universe, whereas I always got the impression that Donna was mainly along for the ride because she had nothing better to do and she would have been just as content if they had gone to Spain for the hols.

Yeah... I mean let's be honest, half the fun for me was Mary Tamm's wardrobe. If I were to cos-play Romana, I'd have to think hard there are so many outfits to choose from but I'd probably go with the one from "The Stones of Blood".

PhoenixRising

Oh, I agree with you about that, Nina. Dumbing down characters was something I could never stand on any show. But I guess I was spared this with Donna, since I never watched her season much, just a few episodes here and there.

I know, right? She was gorgeous. Lalla Ward admitted that she was unable to pull off wearing anything that Mary wore, which is why Romana's wardrobe changed dramatically after her regeneration.

Nikki K

Yeah, lucky you. I watched it but I didn't buy that season on DVD. there are limits to my suffering.

Well, did they really want to make Lalla wear Mary's clothes? I mean that'd just not be right – like as if Peter would have had to wear Matt's outfit past the inital regeneration scene in his first episode... or really any Doctor... every incarnation had its own style, I don't see why that should have been different for Romana. I mean I always assumed the only reason why Delgado's and Ainley's Master looked so similar was basically because Delgado died surprisingly... but even they had different styles like I thought Delgado looked much more the Bond villain while Ainley's wardrobe... especially the collar of his coat/shirt had some vampiristic fantasy quality to it... then of course there were Simm and Gomez, totally different.

Aaah, I just remembered – they had planned for the Master to die/regenerate while saving the Third Doctor in one of Pertwee's last adventures... but that never came to pass obviously because Delgado died in a car accident while filming in Turkey. I think that's interesting that they had already planned something of the sort – I mean Missy was ready to throw her lot in with Twelved at the end after all.

BL.Arinna_1982

I still prefer Sherlock over Elementary.

PhoenixRising

You did, Arinna? I thought you liked Elementary. I know you got tired of it after a while, but didn't Sherlock also get tedious?

I don't have any Doctor Who on DVD except for The Key To Time, Nina.

How many Masters were there? I don't know the actors by name. I know that during Tom Baker's time as the Fourth Doctor, The Master looked like a zombie for most of the time, until after Romana stayed in E-Space, and then the Master returned fully regenerated. But I think Delgado was during Pertwee's time, correct? Yep, he did look like a Bond villain. OMG, I had no idea that he died. That's terrible.

Oh, Missy was actually gonna do that? I don't know if I could take The Doctor and The Master in that type of relationship, even if he was a she now.

Yeah, I think early on there were a few episodes where Lalla's Romana had to wear something long and elegant, and she said in commentaries that it was her trying to do Mary Tamm and failing miserably. That's why from that moment on she always wore either the long pink coat with the white scarf, or the schoolgirl outfit. She didn't think she could pull off the kind of wardrobe that Mary could.

Nikki K

Well, it doesn't look bad, Lalla is/was a beautiful woman obviously but also looks nothing like Mary and shouldn't be expected to. As I said, that's as if they expected Jon Pertwee to be Tom Baker.

Roger Delgado was the orginal Master introduced during the Pertwee era, then came Anthony Ainley for the rest of the Classic period after he re-generated or rather possessed somebody's body in that episode that introduced Nyssa as Four's companion. From what I can remember he was a degenerated corpse again in the movie (I'm never sure how much I actually count that as canon) and then during the season 3 finale with Ten, Martha and Jack, we first see him as Derek Jacobi who then regnerates into John Simm, whom I hated. Later than we get Missy aka Michelle Gomez. Well, actually I do buy it the way they spun the story. I loved Missy, she was brilliant. Best incarnation since Delgado in my opinion. I'll be the first to call Moffat out on all the stupid nonsense he pulled that wasn't very clever but Missy was really brilliantly written – the snark alone was just hilarious and Gomez played her fabulously. She was deliciously evil and quirky without being insane.

Yeah, "The Key To Time" was the first 'Doctor Who' boxset I bought. It was well worth it for all the audio commentary by Tom and Mary alone! They are so delightful.

One thing I really despised about "Sherlock" was how senselessly Moffat killed off Mary Watson... and you can't tell me that wasn't done all in the name of slasher fanservice. (Or because Freeman and Abbington broke up but really can't they just be more professional about these things... )

BL.Arinna_1982

I told you why I stopped watching Elementary, Alex. It was interesting concept at the begining, but I found it more and more boring with the time.

PhoenixRising

Yeah, I know you got bored with it after a while, Arinna. I stopped watching it too.

Oh, I agree. I don't know why Lalla thought she couldn't pull off the wardrobe because she doesn't have to look exactly like Mary. And I don't think anyone would confuse Pertwee with Baker.

I think The Master was a degenerated corpse during Tom Baker's time in keeping with the theme of gothic horror and science fiction the show runners wanted during that time period. I remember they said the show had to tone down the violence after the Leela story arc due to complaints from parents' groups. I don't know who played The Master during that time because he wore prosthetic makeup all the time that made him look like Skeletor. Oh, and I remember Derek Jacobi. I knew exactly who he was once he opened that timepiece.

You got the boxset too? They are great, aren't they?

Yeah, I didn't agree with killing Mary off either. I didn't see the point in it. But then Moffat doesn't give a fk anymore when it comes to his writing or his viewers.

Nikki K

Well, both Pertwee and Baker had really unruly hair. Pertwee was my favourite Classic Doctor though followed by Baker/Troughton, then Davison. Did anyone actually play him or was it more a voice actor gig... I have to re-visit this. So yeah Romana II and Five were in another audio procedual as a follow up to the "Key To Time" series that was pretty good. I liked a lot of the Audioplays with the Fifth Doctor –*espeically those with Romana II and those with Peri.

Yeah, that was just a really really good investment!

I was mostly so annoyed with the way they did it – I mean Mary was this highly trained spy and she would go out there without body armor and throw herself in front of Sherlock while she had just become a mother? And that whole sordid episode with Watson basically cheating or thinking about cheating on her. Bwah. I mean really – you know, I wasn't too keen on the whole "Mary, the assassin-spy" storyline to begin with but I think what was worse than the tired plot device to create drama was Watson's going back and forth between "I'll deal with it, no I can't deal with it" and all I thought at the end was... ach, you bloody tooser, get lost. I also didn't care for Martin Freeman making fun about Lucy Liu's Watson. I thought that was so ungracious and misogynistic. I'm usually skeptical of the whole gender!swap thing but honesty as far as Lucy Liu and Nathalie Dormer on "Elementary" were concerned, I actually was really pleasantly surpised hwo much I enjoyed it. Those episodes were well written too I thought. And as we talked about before I loved Michelle Gomez as "The Master"/Missy. I mean, I like Katee Sackhoff ... my problem was more that I only very occasionally warmed to Starbuck. Loved Grace Park as Boomer/Athena though. So yeah... it can work. Mostly when the story and the writing as well as the portrayal of the character is good and the whole thing isn't just gimicky.

Yeah, as I said, I think "Sherlock" is merely a vehicle for Moffat to jerk off to showing us all how great he is... oh and then a vehicle for Sherlock/Watson slashers to pass out over every tiny bone he throws them. I mean really this whole last season with Sherlock's and Mycroft's sister... so painful, twisted, incomprehensible for the most part in my opinion. Not that I didn't get what he was trying to do... it was just... ach, meh, really. /rant

Back to reading and eventually plotting my own Twelve/Clara sex times... any favourite aliens I should consider bringing back if I really write something?

BL.Arinna_1982

x

My new guilty ship!

Nikki K

What's guilty about it? Are they related? Cheating?

PhoenixRising

No, that's Kirsten and Cameron on Stitchers. They're not really a guilty pleasure, but they are cute.

Oh, I agree the hair on Pertwee and Baker were similar, but the personas were totally different. I couldn't see Pertwee eating Jelly Babies.

I never heard the audio plays, so I have no idea. But I did hear that he reunited with Mary Tamm on a few, although I don't think he and Lalla ever did. I did hear she did one with Davison, though.

Oh, I agree, Nina. You're right, Mary had just become a mother and she so easily sacrificed herself like that? I think she could've saved John without having to take the bullet herself. And that whole thing about Watson cheating on her was basically just to set up that plot about Sherlock's sister, wasn't it? The new "Moriarty" as it were. Oh, and I'm glad you mentioned Nathalie Dormer on Elementary, because I also enjoyed her Jamie Moriarty character. It's a shame she could never return to the show, but I guess her career took off and she no longer needed it.

OMG, I loved Grace Park on BSG too! Yep, I was a fan of Athena and Helo, but I was sad about how Boomer ended up. Katee was good as Starbuck, but she got a little...

Oooh, some Clara/Twelve stuff? I've always been partial to the Osirians from Pyramids of Mars. Oh, and I liked the vampires from the E-Space episode State of Decay.

Nikki K

Ah, I think Pertwee's Doctor would eat them – but you know after a thorough lab analyses, declaring them complete rubbish and then insisting that he'll only eat the black ones and now he's not supporting that anyone else eat them at all.

You should totally listen to the audioplays. Some are really really brilliant! Yeah –*Tom and Mary got together for a series and I'm so grateful for that! But Tom and Lalla actually did reunite for a series of audioplays that were released in 2016/17, the latest only two weeks ago on the BigFinish website.
I know that Peter Davison is enarmoured with Nyssa and Sarah Sutton but to be honest I was always kind of meh about her and that he had way more chemistry with Nicola Bryant, which is very evident in the audioplays. "Red Dawn", "Exotron" and "The Bride of Peladon" were probably my favourites but you need to listen to "The Eye of the Scorpion" for the last one to make sense or you don't really get the dynamic between the characters...

Oh, it's been confirmed that Natalie Dormer is coming back this season as Jaime Moriarty, so I'm looking forward to that. And yeah, that's the thing, it would have made so much more sense if Mary had thrown herself in front of that bullet to save John, but no it was to save Sherlock? I mean I get it she felt a debt somehow and they were friends, blahblah but again, you tell me that a highly trained spy goes to a meeting like this without wearing a bullet proof vest after we have seen flashback of her in all the high tech gear she operated???

Yeah, I loved Athena/Helo as well, they were cute. I was sad about Boomer... it does remind me though how much I hated Cally. Yeah, idk... I think Katee definitely played her role well and there were aspects to Starbuck that I liked, others not so much.

Hm... not sure I want to go the Mars-route, mainly because I felt the Ice Warriors weren't treated right last season. But "State of Decay" was brilliant – I have to investigate if that maybe sparks an idea.

Too cute for words: