Nikki K

Yes, in all fairness I thought Ruta fit much better into The Tudors, something about the way the costumes looked on her. She played Bessie Blount convincingly. As for the show itself – I didn't care for the first season much but in terms of historical accuracy it got better from season 2 on.

On the show, yes, they had Gabrielle Anwar, who played Henry's younger sister and should have been named Mary but apparently that would have been confusing for the viewers so they named her Margaret after Henry's older sister because that's not confusing at all, murder her husband, the King of Portugal so she could marry Charles Brandon played by Henry Cavill. And yes Sarah Bolger played Princess Mary, the future Mary I. Lots of great actors and actresses on that show.

PhoenixRising

Oh, so Ruta was better on The Tudors, then? I'm glad she didn't get hate for that role.

OMG, so even the Tudors acknowledged that all the Marys and Maragarets and Elizabeths and Henrys got confusing? Well, that's nice, but I still would've preferred they kept her name Mary. I had to sift through all the Richards, Margarets, Elizabeths, and Henrys in TWP and TWQ, so the Tudors have no excuse. And you're right, the Margarets are no less confusing than the Marys.

OMG, Superman was on The Tudors? And was The Tudors more or less historically accurate than TWQ and TWP?

Nikki K

Here's the thing that Katherine of Aragon understood and Anne Boleyn didn't – that as a wife, as a queen it "just wasn't on" to throw a fit because your husband had a mistress. So Katherine's behaviour towards Bessie Blount was always dignified. Meanwhile Anne couldn't manage the transition from mistress to wife and reacted jealously to every flirtation, therefore exasperating Henry.

It's been a long time that I watched 'The Tudors' – off the top of my head I'd say that the grossest offences against history happened in season 1 when they played up the "sex" aspect of the show and also because chronologically everything was pretty much out of order because hey wanted to use things that happened earlier but without going "5 years later" in the middle of a episode etc.

(1) Henry's actual older sister Margaret, the Queen of Scotland, is never mentioned. Instead his younger sister Mary is called Margaret. She does not marry the elderly King of France but instead an elderly King of Portugal, whom she suffocates with a pilllow on her wedding night so she could marry Charles Brandon. All this was done so that simultaneously they could introduce Henry's rivlary with King Francis I, and have them meet on the Field of the Cloth of Gold.

(2) Henry's son with Bessie Blount did not die in infancy but was actually married to Mary Howard, a cousin of Anne Boleyn's and Katherine Howard's. He still died rather young though.

(3) I'm almost sure that Charles Brandon never made sexual advances to Queen Claude of France.

(4) More in terms of omission: The daughters and granddaughters of Henry's sister are never mentioned. I always thought that was a clear indicator that the showrunners didn't intend to go beyond Henry's reign, otherwise, they would have had to deal with the Grey sisters. Meanwhile in season 4 Henry travels north to meet his nephew James V of Scotland, yet it isn't mentioned that he's the son of his older sister (probably because then they would have had to mention that her name was Margaret and things would have got convoluted) – that also led to the omission of Margaret Douglas, James's half-sister and Henry VIII's favourite niece. We do get to meet the men she had unsuccessful romances with but these storylines could obviously not be played out for the lack of her presence so they had to meet their dire end by other means.

(5) They assigned the infidelity of Edward Seymour's first wife to his second wife. And she committed adultery not with his father but with his brother Thomas.

I always thought the re-casting of Anita Briem with Annabelle Wallis as Jane Seymour was unfortunate.

I'm sure there was more, that's just what I can remember. But I think from season 2 on they took greater care to go for more accuracy in how the characters and their circumstances were depicted and there was less sensationalising.

BL.Arinna_1982

You didn't know that fact, Alex?

PhoenixRising

No I didn't, Arinna.

Oh, so Katherine understood what Margaret Beaufort tried to tell Elizabeth of York? "Men are weak, easily swayed by beauty. Women must be stronger." Although Henry Tudor wasn't being swayed, he was just trying to discredit and humiliate Prince Richard. But is that one of the reasons why Anne Boleyn ended up getting killed, because Henry VIII grew too annoyed with her over her jealousy? And what eventually happened to Katherine of Aragon?

Well, the first season of The Tudors being the way you describe seems typical of Hollywood these days, Nina. They do tend to do things out of expediency and what they think will be the most titillating stories.

Thanks for all that other information, Nina. Yeah, it makes sense that they'd want to end The Tudors with Henry VIII's reign because there's a lot between him and Elizabeth I that I don't think the show runners were interested in.

Nikki K

That was part of the problem. Henry became disenchanted with her over her jealousy and of course there was the fact that she didn't bear him the son he had hoped for. The other part of the problem was that Anne and Cromwell clashed over what was to be done with the wealth that became available by getting rid of the nunneries and monasteries. Again this is simplifying the matter of course but broadly Anne wanted to invest in charitable projects, meanwhile Cromwell saw it as an opportunity to fill the royal coffers. All that is actually quite well depicted in season 2 of "The Tudors". If you want to believe it – Cromwell's mentor Cardinal Wosley wasn't treated terribly well by the Boleyn faction after he couldn't secure an annulment of Henry's marriage to Katherine with the pope, so in Wolf Hall (the mini series where Joanne plays KoA), a big motive for Cromwell bringing about Anne's downfall is revenge for the poor treatment of his former mentor that eventually lead to his death.

Henry was never able to obtain an annulment from the pope, hence the formation of the Church of England where he hand the Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Cramner declare the marriage void so he could marry Anne. A lot of people were beheaded over the dispute whether that was actually legal because Henry also declared himself the head of this new church. So let's just say it was very heavily disputed. That's one of the reasons why Elizabeth I. was always insecure whether she actually legitimate as she was born while Katherine was still very much alive, albeit banished to some palace of Henry's chosing she refused to stop calling herself Queen of England. That's also how the people perceived her. Ultimately Katherine died of heart cancer a few months before Anne's execution.

It's a real shame though because it is really interesting. Take the movie "Lady Jane" with Helena Bonham Carter as Jane Grey, Queen of England for nine days alone. Also as much as she is vilified, Mary I. is a incredibly interesting character -- how she mobilised an army and took London to take the throne from ... well, in essence not so much Jane but the latter's father-in-law... that is really impressive. I think Elizabeth I. has often been idealised quite a lot... Gloriana and all and while I do love the movies with Cate Blanchett, I have to say that "Reign" did a great job to show an Elizabeth who was probably closer to the truth ironically in the sense that she had a lot of her father's and her mother's volatile character traits.

BL.Arinna_1982

x

PhoenixRising

Oh wow, so Thomas Cromwell also brought about Anne's death? It wasn't just Henry being a psychopath? And isn't Oliver Cromwell is descendant?

Yeah, I remember some of the movies about Elizabeth I and Mary Stuart mentioned Elizabeth's legitimacy being questioned. And Henry VIII banished Katherine to some remote location until she gave up her title as Queen, and she later died of heart cancer? Wow, I'll bet Queen Isabella regretted promising her daughter to Henry and Elizabeth's son after that, huh? And poor Teddy died for nothing.

Yes, I understand. But I think the whole Edward VI/Jane Grey/Mary I era doesn't interest people as much because they all spent so little time on the throne. Edward was king for all of six years before he died of a sudden illness at the age of 15... the same age his uncle Arthur Tudor died, of another mysterious illness. The curse of Elizabeth Woodville. And Edward didn't want either of his sisters to get the crown for some reason, so he promised it to his cousin, Jane Grey. But her rule is listed as "disputed" and she was only Queen for 9 days. And Mary I ruled as Queen for an even shorter time than her brother, only five years, and then she died. They are fascinating for what happened during their reigns, but I get why most historians, writers, and filmmakers are more interested in Henry VII, Henry VIII, and Elizabeth I. And I agree, Elizabeth I has been glorified quite a bit. I never saw Reign, but it sounds interesting. And yes, Cate was great as Elizabeth.

Nikki K

I think Oliver Cromwell is a descendant of Thomas Cromwell's elder sister Katherine, who married a Welsh lawyer.

Well, Katherine never personally acknowledged that she was not queen and that she was not Henry's legitimate wife, she held her ground to the very end. That was probably one of the best scenes in the second season of "The Tudors" when Henry Cavill's character Charles Brandon goes to visit Katherine at what was probably supposed to be the Manor of the More and I think ... it's been so long ... but I think he asked her why she didn't give up and it was such a heartbreaking scene between Cavill and Maria Doyle Kennedy. In reality both Henry's sister Mary and her husband were much on Katherine's side. So...

Well, Isabel couldn't regret anything really since she was dead. That was a great show by the way, I enjoyed it very much: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel_(TV_series)

Most people are boring.

BL.Arinna_1982

I wonder when we'll get some time to watch Victoria now.

PhoenixRising

We will, Arinna. We just have one more episode of TWP to watch and we're done.

Ah yes, I remember that was in the Wiki page, Nina. Thomas' sister was Oliver Cromwell's ancestor.

Yeah, Thomas Cromwell spoke very kindly of Katherine from what I've read. And she was very popular with the people of England, and she was Spanish.

Damn, Katherine really had a sad end with Henry. And I wish Isabel could've lived to have seen this happen so she'd know what a lousy deal she got handing her daughter over to the Tudors. It ended up being Anne Boleyn's daughter, Elizabeth I, who sat on the throne of England, while her granddaughter, Mary I... well, that ended badly. And Isabel had her own TV show? Was she the same one who send Columbus on his journey to the New World?

Nikki K

Yes, she was the very one who sent Columbus to the New World.

Thomas Cromwell spoke kindly of his sister? I would hope so. Both of them actually.

I mean Cromwell was close to the Boleyn faction initially because their ideas of religious reform were similar, but then Anne went against him politically and he realised he would only survive that if Henry didn't take her back in his good graces so he started supporting Jane Seymour instead though Jane other than her brother Edward, was not a religious reformer.

As for Mary I. – I think it's unfair to judge her solely on her obsession to take England back to Catholicism. Firstly, she was a bright and very well educated young woman who had basically been pushed around and abused by her father after he cut her off from her mother from one day to the next. Also as far as her reign is concerned, many reforms that were later implemented during Elizabeth's reign were actually conceived and started during Mary's.

BL.Arinna_1982

She's a debatable figure for sure...

PhoenixRising

No, I mean Thomas Cromwell spoke kindly of Catherine of Aragon. He said, "If not for her sex, she could have defied all the heroes of History."

Thanks for elaboration on Cromwell's role in the whole Anne Boleyn saga. And didn't he help Henry VIII get his marriage to Catherine annulled?

Well I'm glad that Mary I's legacy lived on through Elizabeth I. And I'm glad the internet ensures that these historical figures don't get forgotten.

BL.Arinna_1982

Again, if only she was a man.... which I think was a laughable statement. She could've defeat everyone even the fact that she was a woman!