Sometimes it’s the casting, too. If there’s not enough chemistry between the actors, it doesn’t matter how great the writing is. I can’t imagine Cesar and Lucrezia onscreen without explosive chemistry. It’s why so many actors become involved when working together. When the chemistry is that strong, it’s hard to resist the attraction. Add in a romantic storyline with love scenes and the sexual tension is obvious. That’s why I believe François and Holly had something going on at some point. They’ve both, him especially, became involved with costars from romantic roles.

Yeah I won't fight you on this, I don't think they had great chemistry after season 1 which was really great but afterwards writing and directing was lacking which led to Holliday's acting really slipping in my personal opinion and I wasn't buying it anymore. So to me a big aspect of my favourite show was suddenly dead and I was incredibly sad. I'm happy you feel differently though and could still enjoy it. And lucky for me there was still David and Joanne around who gave stellar performances. :)

In general I totally agree with you though which is why for instance I cannot believe that they make so little use of Mädchen and Skeet on Riverdale.

Finally a good discussion here! :D

Well, Arinna, you can always count on me for discussion if you want it. ;)

Thanks for the great discussion, Nina and Lila! :group_hug:


Yeah, I agree with you for the most part, although I still liked Cesare and Lucrezia post-season 1. I agree that some aspects of the writing got tired, but the fault was more with Neil Jordan than with Francois and Holly. Those two still steamed up the screen no matter what. :nod:

I agree, Nina, I do wish we got a bit more Falice, but I'm happy that we got what we ended up getting because it's better than nothing. :) I'm a bit disappointed by how lazy the writers are with Archie and Veronica, sadly, and I think Betty and Jughead suck up way too much of the oxygen in the room.

I'm still waiting for Manifest to return and for my Michaela and Zeke ship to start sailing. :D But TV for the most part these days just seems shallow and cold.

As I said, no offence but I couldn't deal with Holliday's acting post season 1 anymore. In season 1 her acting was nuanced and you got this character that was between girlhood and womanhood but still wise for her age plus the undeniable chemistry with François. And then in season 2, I don't know –*yes it was Neil Jordan's lazy scripts but it was also the directing and Holliday was acting so over the top in my opinion so I could barely watch there... the second hand embarrassment was too much. There were mad giggles, overly hysterical screams... all that stuff. I personally found it cringe-worthy. It destroyed the whole watching experience for me personally.

Yes, I'm happy Falice are back together but again... it was not explained how they got back together which I find unworthy. I'm not sure I follow to be honest, did Betty and Jughead have any noteworthy scenes together lately except when she spent Thanksgiving with him at his dorm? I feel they are more apart than anything. In fairness the same is true for Archie and Veronica because for some reason Archie has to be a street fighter and Veronica has to wrestle with her long lost half-sister about a rum recipe??? I can't even.

I thought Manifest was cancelled. The more you know. I checked out early on to be honest.

I finally finished Smallville.... Lex/Lana ftw! :in_love:

Yeah, I know how you feel about Holly's acting, Nina. :) It's okay. :hug:

I agree, I think that Falice's storyline has a lot of holes in it and we need a bit more continuity. And yes, both Archie and Veronica and Betty and Jughead have been apart a lot more this season doing separate storylines. I don't know where the writers are going with this, to be honest, but it's all supposedly leading up to Betty "killing" Jughead with Archie and Veronica as witnesses, according to the flash-forwards. I'm guessing it's "Dark Betty" returning. Apparently Betty inherited the psychopath gene from her dad. But this stuff with Archie running the gym and Veronica competing with her sister... :yawn: Yeah, boring.

No, Manifest got renewed and the new season began yesterday. :nod: I'm still shipping Zeke/Michaela.

Oh, so you finished Smallville? :) I heard about Lex/Lana. How did Clark/Lois turn out?

Before you scold me, Alex, yes, I know this thread is about other ships, but humour me, ok? :lol:

I love how she portrayed the girl at the brink of womanhood and agree that her nuanced performance was engaging as was the chemistry with François. The mix of innocence and a dark lust for her brother blooming along with her womanhood was clear from the beginning as she spied watching him having sex.

I'm curious at what you mean by second hand embarrassment? Forgive me if you've talked about it previously. I've read many old posts, but not all. Her laugh in the first episode when Cesar caught her and flung her to the ground seemed forced, but it's difficult for actors to laugh authentically. François' laugh is so charming that I could listen to it all day :)

I agree with Alex about the writing making the acting a challenge. Unraveling the script, at times, took really listening to the dialogue and interpreting subtext. Subtext can't take the place of dialogue when it's too nuanced and ambiguous. Ambiguity was NJ's middle name throughout the series. And it's great when it's not overly complex and disjointed.

I'm kinda in love with Holly and completely so with François, so am biased :lol: I think they did a great job and their chemistry was strong throughout. I resented the side lovers of icky Ursula and donkey-riding Paolo, and don't even get me started on my hatred of watching Cesar :censored: Charlotte :puke: and Caterina. Lu & Ces belonged together and I couldn't tolerate third parties.

The third season was my favorite, because I wanted Lu & Ces to be lovers. The second was the weakest season for me. I was happy when Ces killed Juan, because he posed a serious threat to not only Lu's baby, but to Ces & Lu's relationship. He was threatening to expose them as lovers, even though they'd yet to do the deed. Killing Juan allowed them more freedom to grow even closer and fulfill their love.

I believe it was Juan IRL who started the incest rumours, just as he threatened Ces with on the show. Sforza accused Rodrigo, but there were rumours about Ces prior to that. Juan was envious of Cesar, especially of his intelligence and close relationship with Lu. Much is made of Cesar's envy, but it was both of them. After his marriage and return from Spain, Juan started spending a lot of time alone with Lu. Why is unclear, perhaps to anger Cesar? Always a dangerous move :lmao: It caused conflict between the brothers. Funny how Cesar didn't mind sharing Sancia with him, but Lu was different. He was murdered during this period, on the night before Ces was set to ride to Naples for Ferdinand's coronation, where he'd spend several months doing his father's bidding.

Rodrigo had also ordered Lu to go with Juan when he returned to Spain in September. We don't know why, but if she'd had a baby, maybe it was to keep her away from Rome..or Cesar. The timing of Juan's murder is curious. I despise the real life Juan, so it was hard to like anything about him on the show. I cheered when Ces stabbed him and then rubbed salt into the wound by bringing up Juan's doubts about his paternity, telling him, "We're Borgias! We never forgive." :hammer_head: :yay:

Alex - Yeah, it's all really disjointed and boring atm and I don't understand how they are supposed to come together in the end and allegedly cover for Betty having killed Jughead (if that even happened or even if that is only a ruse) if they have spent hardly any time together that makes no sense, it's not like they are thick as thieves at this point. What also makes no sense? The whole "serial killer gene" thing – because Charles tells Betty he has it too. But I ask you, who from? After all, he can't have it inherited from Hank now, can he? Being FP's and Alice's son. That's also so weird, yes he comes around to family dinners at one point or another it seems but we never ever got another scene after Alice breaking down in FP's arms in season 2, was it?, when she thought Charles was dead and now it turns out it he isn't – that went on without commentary how they both feel about having found their son alive and grown up. I mean okay, we see he is not the good guy after all sadly but has some shady dealings visiting Chick in prison and looking for the corpse that FP and Alice disposed off. But still. Dumpsterfire in terms of storytelling. The only scenes I were happy with this season, besides the glimpses of Falices, were when they brought Molly Ringwald in to a greater capacity and I think Mary and Archie work well as mother and son which is a really good thing in the sad wake of Luke Perry's death. As for Smallville – oh Lois/Clark turned out brilliantly eventually. I love them too! The only thing that I really would have wished for was that they hadn't killed Jimmy and that he would have got with Lucy like in many of the earlier comics. And you should be happy Manifest is back, isn't it?

Lila – Well, you are as all of us entitled to your opinion but I just don't agree with most of it. From a show perspective, like I said, I very much enjoyed season 1 and there I agree I wasn't keen on the Ursula storyline – I think what bugged me about it was that the whole thing felt very forced making up this random noblewoman he spied at the market, I fought it was much cleverer in Borgia that they chose an actual historical figure like Fiammetta Michaelis who we knew to have known Cesare but of course not in what capacity in her early years before she became a courtesan... it was also good that they didn't overdo it with the love angle there – you always got the feeling yes, he liked her fine but he wasn't going to throw away his career for her that was something that really bugged me about Ursula and Cesare on The Borigas – and Tereza Voříšková had much more of an Italian Renaissance appearance compared to Ruta Gedmintas who worked well in the English Medieval setting on The Tudors, where she played Elizabeth Blount and very believably so. I really minded Paolo and Pedro in both versions tbh because it was not just a fling, which I could have lived with... especially on The Borgias (though really making the historically mild mannered Giovanni Sforza into this monster... oh well with the artistic licence), but the stupid baby storyline really bugged me, especially how it played out on The Borgias. Because from a historical standpoint I do not believe that Lucrezia actually had a child out of wedlock and even if then she wouldn't have been allowed to have it around and with her lest she will never attract another husband and that was Rodrigo's goal that she marry well. And that is basically where his sending her to Spain comes in, in my opinion. Much like Juan who had already married a niece of Ferdinand II of Aragon. I think it was Rodrigo's goal that Lucrezia would marry into the nobility of their homeland and they establish themselves there at a higher level. After all his sister and other relations still lived there and he saw full well how they were not treated with great respect as Spaniards in Italy. So I think Juan spending time with Lucrezia was probably to prepare her for this journey and prospects back in their father's homeland. And going back from the historical to the show I found Ana Ulura actually quite charming, there I thought The Borgias was doing better with the casting actually, though I didn't mind Stéphane Caillard too much though she read as more modern in historical clothing. As for the rumours, it's my understanding that there weren't any about Cesare and Lucrezia until her second husband. And if they appear earlier then it's probably something that has been insinuated by the gossipmonger Burchard. Like I said before I would treat his journal with caution as a source.

But anyway, let's get back to business...

I'll just...

https://media.tenor.com/images/6691a...69b6/tenor.gif

... because they make me happy these days.

Who is that, Arinna? I miss so much.

I just randomly catch up on things lately.

That's Arinna's BTS ship, Nina. :lol: She doesn't really ship them in real life, it's just a make believe thing for her.

It's okay, Lila. :lol: I'm not gonna scold you. :hug: But I would like to get off this particular subject because it is off topic, and I'd also like to refrain from having any discussions get too testy, that's all. :) You and Nina both have your opinions on this and neither of you are going to change your minds, so let's just have an agreement to disagree and move on. :nod: I want to talk about other ships because this year has depressed me in that area. :(

I agree, Nina. I don't get what they're doing with the flash forwards in time, other than perhaps an attempt to look clever or something. I don't get why they're doing what they're doing with Charles, or why Veronica's sister is at all relevant because she seems like a character they'll just get rid of shortly. I'm guessing it's just to give Veronica something to do while they devote so much time and energy into Bughead. :rolleyes: And Falice really needs more development because this is just fan service at the moment. I want them to have an actual storyline. I did like having Mary around with Archie longer, like you said. :nod: OMG, they killed Jimmy Olsen on Smallville? :eek:

Yes, Manifest is back and I'm gonna watch the premiere. :nod:

Thanks for not scolding me, Alex :lol: Actually, I'm very likely to change my opinions when given new info and am open-minded, which is why I love reading other points of view. I take nothing personally and don't get offended :) I've read many old posts and, sadly, know what you're talking about.

Nina, you are so knowledgeable and I always learn something from your Borgia posts. I'm 100% ok with having different perspectives, otherwise I'm just reading my own thoughts :lol: I appreciate that you take the time to explain things in detail. I tend to write long posts, (to Alex's chagrin :lmao:) so when I see you've written a lot, I get excited to read you and want to know more. I hope you don't mind my picking your brain with questions :hug: And omg Luke Perry died??

Alas, I don't have any new ships. Every couple that I liked has been wrecked somehow. I'm still depressed over Beth and Rio from Good Girls :( Maybe like Arinna, I can find a fantasy ship :sigh:

Alex – First of all what is a BTS ship? I feel so out of touch. Secondly, I think your impression that there is a lot of time spent on Bughead comes from previous seasons and the very vocal fans because this season I barely see any Bughead. It's like Jughead is away at this fancy boarding school chasing after this secret society, the teacher who committed suicide, the thing with the YA book franchise, his grandfather... and Moose was briefly there but then not. Meanwhile Betty is at home being in this bizarre teenage FBI training programme and confronting Dark!Betty with Charles's help while being manipulated by Evelyn Evernever over the phone. What annoys me about all of this is – hey, sorry aren't Archie and Betty supposed to be best friends? Aren't Veronica and Betty supposed to be friends? We don't get any scenes with them together. I agree that Archie is also busy playing vigilante and there's his gym and Veronica is competing with Hermosa about the rum and defying her father where to go to an Ivy League school (there is still, Cornell, honey – with an excellent Food Science programme, you could even get in-state tuition)... but they have still more scenes even if it's just as it seems so Veronica can piss Hiram off like when Veronica catered Archie's Thanksgiving. But still so disjointed. And as for Falice – look, I'm obviously happy we get any breadcrumbs but it's not enough and like we said before unlike the kids, personally, I think there are two actors with amazing chemistry and the writers/directors think... oh let's just not do anything with it???? Also yes, they killed Jimmy Olsen –– he was impaled by Doomsday but he got him back with his final breath.

Ah, Alex, no worries, I'm not testy... I'm just saying what I've always said. Sorry that won't change. I mean I adore this show's first season, loved CL there and have written fanfic for them but then it broke. But after I continued watching for Joanne and David and the history. And because of that I watched Borgia too where I also found a lot of things to like and some to dislike. It's not a fight. And mostly what I wrote was more on a historical level here.

As for depressing ships and shows, I hear you, there hasn't been much lately. I mean I watched a few things I enjoyed but there really wasn't much when it came to the shipping aspect.

Lila – I appreciate that you are such a faithful shipper and you could take pleasure even in the last two seasons where CL was concerned. That's totally cool. As you see in my last post it's not like we disagree on everything when it comes to the show. However, historically I mean it's been a while but I think we've both read extensively but I guess not the same things. At some point I tried to get a more impartial view of the times (as much as that is even possible because even biographers today have biases, you just have to sniff them out), so I have read a lot about the people surrounding the core Borgias too, which I think helps interpret their lives and motives. For instance – we go about thinking that Della Rovere and Rodrigo were always these great enemies but in fact when I read a biography about Della Rovere I came to realise that that was really not so or at least not always so – I mean they differed greatly on their approach to the papacy and politics – but long before Rodrigo became pope for instance, Della Rovere invited him regularly to his house in Orvieto. I had all of this listed and written out at one point in our Book and other media thread but that has probably long dropped off after all these years. And I write long posts too... as can be witnessed from times long long ago on this board. So no worries.

Hm, I haven't watched Good Girls either. The only really new thing I picked up was 'Nancy Drew' this season. I did watch 'Spinning Out', that new Netflix show about figure skating. I don't think there'll be a second season it was very self-contained.

BTS? They are the current Beetles, And these two are my ship there.. also is my first M/M ship, but they look so cute together. :sigh: