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Old 05-22-2012, 11:00 AM
  #16
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Right! And how glad I was as you can image...
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:30 AM
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I like the actress who plays Giulia but her character has no purpose in the show. I didn't miss her at all.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:32 AM
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Right?!!! That's what I'm thinking, too. And I'm tired of them having to create reasons for her to be there because they decided to omit her brother from the story.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikki K (View Post)
The best thing about the episode: the sight of Ludovico on his horse - priceless! The worst thing: it's a tie between Cesare's whinging/sulking and Raffaele Pallavicini's hair.
I take it you didn't like the episode? Or is it the entire season that's a problem?
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:15 PM
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I think there are generally problems that do not make me like the season all that much so far but I thought this episode was particularly bad. I liked that it featured David Oakes so prominently though.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:44 PM
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how can we see the preview for next week?
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:08 PM
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how can we see the preview for next week?
It's probably up on Showtime's website. I haven't been able to find the last few ones on youtube.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:54 PM
  #23
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Am I forgetting my history, or was this whole episode totally unhistorical?

Did Giovanni (Juan) Borgia ever besiege Forli? Cesare did, but I can neither recall nor find any reference to any Borgia military operation against Forli led by Giovanni.

And when Cesare was assaulting Forli, in 1499, (a) he took the place and (b) Giovanni was already two years dead. And this episode, to judge from its inclusion of Savonarola's bonfires of the vaneties and of a still living Giovanni, seems ostensibly to be set in 1496 or 1497. But did the Borgias operate against Katerina Sforza at all in 1496-97?

And where in all this is the deposition of the Medici and the proclamation of the Republic in Florence during the first French invasion in 1494? In the series, don't the Medici still seem to be at least nominally ruling Florence, even if they can't control the town very well? For that matter, where in all this is Caterina Sforza's 1496-97 love affair with one of the Medici?

Unless I'm missing something, season 2 seems to be diverging increasingly from history. Who know, maybe the series will end with Cesare Borgia being canonized.
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:45 PM
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No, he never did and no, I don't think Caterina Sforza was on their radar at that point. I think they merely took a part of Cesare's story and transfered it onto Juan. Like with the Syphilis. While it seems like almost everyone had it at the time, so I wouldn't rule it out that he actually suffered from it, I can't recall any accounts that would give evidence of that.

Two weeks ago we had the show's version of the battle of Fovorno of 1495, so frankly, I don't know where we are in time anymore apart from - probably very close to Juan's death.

They just had Savonarola preach against... everyone/everything last season, I cannot recall them inculding the proclamation of the Florentine republic. However, I think we saw Piero de' Medici in one of the last episodes as he had taken refuge in Rome.

As for Caterina Sforza's love and family life - I cannot see that they pay any attention to depicting that correctly. (Though I do think that Ludovico indeed came to her help in Forlì, I don't know if she had a close relationship with Giovanni - I cannot say I ever read about it anyway. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong though!)

Quote:
Who know, maybe the series will end with Cesare Borgia being canonized.
Oh, you mean as it should have been? Yeah, I don't really know - however, one of the showrunners might still have an inkling about history... perhaps, maybe... didn't someone say in an interview that theoretically the series could be extended and go on with Julius II being pope etc.? (Which actually if they don't want to end with Rodrigo's death, must happen.)

I'm increasingly unhappy about the depiction of Della Rovere this season. The whole poisoning plot seems completely out of character for the historical persona.
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Old 05-25-2012, 03:31 PM
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I think the ridiculous plots come when they have no idea what to do with the character (Giulia and Della Rovere). And it's starting to get annoying. I'd rather not see Della Rovere for two or three episodes instead of getting this made up storyline.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:15 PM
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I agree. I also often wish they were a bit less obvious in what they are doing. History aside, that poisoning plot is pretty drastic and I do not know how if at all they plan to get away from this again and have Della Rovere interact with other characters on the show. It could have been done before. We saw him at the beginning of season 1 when he might not have been particularly willing but absolutely knew what it would take to keep up appearances. So in the light of that if they didn't want him to ride back with the French, then really - they could have done something a bit more clever like him seemingly agreeing to Cesare's proposal of working together while secretly undermining Rodrigo in the curia or something. I feel that could have brought about more interesting character and especially plot developments. Also easier to get away from again. I mean if they have the Borgia find out about the poison, what is the next step going to be? I can't see a lot of room for anything really that would make sense but perhaps that is my limited imagination.
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Old 05-26-2012, 04:11 PM
  #27
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One thing in this episode that really grated on my ears was the introduction of Juan's Spanish companion as "a real conquistador." Let's see, that's in 1496 or 1497. After Columbus' second voyage, but before his third. The Spanish hadn't conquered anything in the New World yet, not even Hispaniola. And the word, "conquistador," in the sense given it by Cortez and Pizarro, did not exist.

The depiction of syphilis seems equally ahistorical. During the first decade after Columbus brought it back from America, it was incredibly nasty -- killed you quickly. Only later did it begin the familiar evolution to a less virulent and more parasitic microorganism, following the familiar long-term path from predator to symbiote.
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Old 05-27-2012, 05:30 AM
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I didn't mention the "conquistador" part because it made me bang my head against a wall so much, I thought it was pretty obvious.

As for the Syphilis - I read accounts that it was dragged around by those who returned from from the New World, however, it's also possible that the bacteria existed in Europe before, so I don't think we can necessarily pin point where Treponema pallidum actually came from. It's a bit like with Yersinia pestis, is it not? I mean we do know about earlier outbreaks than in the medieval ages - or so we think from the little description that is given in the Bible etc. - but all in all, I think those are diseases that just became successful as the population became a lot denser. That is definitely the case when you are in military camps and in bigger cities. So that is an ideal breeding ground for the bacteria - especially since they are so agressive they can be transmitted even by a kiss. I agree with you though that I think the treatment was quite odd. So this is supposed to be three years after the first big outbreak and they already have little gadgets developed? I thought that was neat and funny but I'm not sure it's realistic, I guess I would have to dig further into "medical procedure" at the time. I know that the primary stage brings lots of lesions which were treated by applying mercury. That seemed to help temporarily with the lesions. Not sure how quickly it killed, I mean so many people had it who survived for a long time: Cesare or Della Rovere out of our story for instance. What I did find pretty odd was that Juan seemed to know that it can affect people's mental health and take over the brain. I thought that was curious because I'm not sure how much medical knowlegde people had at the time with sciences only a bit on the rise again. In any case, I read accounts where Cesare was cured from it after him and his father fell ill in 1503. There were two theories back then - one that they suffered from malaria, the other that they tried to poison some old rich cardinal with La Cantarella-laced wine. Now La Cantarella is arsenic based and I know that in the early 20th century, when they identified the pathogen (1905), before they started treating syphilis whith penecillin, they used arsenic (1910 - the Salvarsan treatment developed by Paul Ehrlich) and had a certain degree of success. So in my opinion if it was indeed true and he was cured from it (not just in remission), I'd say the poisoning plot is a safe bet.
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